<p>Bescraze wrote "...that there is absolutely no way that WashU, Northwestern, Chicago... are on the same level as the middle group of Ivies." Well my above post proves that you are correct in that these schools, WashUStL, Northwestern & Chicago are above the middle group of Ivies. Probably not the point that you were hoping to make, however.
Note: I am aware that I did not include CalTech, Harvey Mudd or MIT in the above chart. CalTech & Harvey Mudd are very small,specialty schools with a total enrollment of nine (900) hundred students each. And I am too smart to try to compete with MIT.</p>
<p>Another way to address Post #39 in demonstrating that WashUStL, Northwestern & Chicago are above or on par with the middle Ivies is to consider the mid-point SAT score of the mid-range of accepted students:</p>
<p>Harvard 1495
Yale 1495
Princeton 1485
MIT 1470
Pomona 1455
WashUStL 1450
Columbia 1450
Swarthmore 1450
Stanford 1445
Duke 1440
Dartmouth 1440
Northwestern 1435
Williams 1430
Amherst 1430
Penn 1430
Chicago 1430
Brown 1430
Rice 1420
Tufts 1415
Notre Dame 1405
Carleton College 1400
Claremont McKenna 1400
Georgetown 1395
Middlebury 1395
Wesleyan 1395
Cornell 1395
Wellesley, Vanderbilt, Carnegie Mellon & Haverford & Reed 1390
Emory, Vassar, Bowdoin & Washington & Lee 1385
USC & Oberlin 1365
Grinnell, Colby & Scripps 1360
Barnard 1350
UCal-Berkeley 1345
Colgate 1340
Coll. of Wm. & Mary, RPI, Whitman & NYU 1335
Georgia Tech & Kenyon 1330
UCLA, Virginia & UNC- Chapel Hill 1305</p>
<p>Again WashUStL & Northwestern are above the middle Ivies, while Chicago is with the middle Ivies.</p>
<p>^Bescraze</p>
<p>I thought you are in HS. How come you seem to be living in the 70s/80s? I remember you said your source of info is your uncles/aunts but they went to colleges when? Things have changed in the last 2 decades. Looks up CURRENT data if in doubt.</p>
<p>A ranking that might be of interest would consist of elite colleges & universities that do not award merit scholarships of at least half tuition (or more, so that the $2,000 NMF & NMS awards do not enter into the picture). this would greatly elevate the stature of Northwestern University while depressing the stature of many schools including several Ivies & WashUStL. Several Ivies give "scholarships" in the guise of financial aid, as does Stanford. For example, any admitted & matriculated student whose family makes less than $100,000 a year pays no tuition at some Ivies & at Stanford. Under $80,000 per year or , at some schools, under $60,000 per year & tuition, room & board are free. This is a method of recruiting highly qualified students under the guise of financial aid when for many it is really a merit scholarship. Many schools have several full, 3/4 & 1/2 tuition merit scholarships. This has helped schools such as WashUStL jump into national prominence. The Ivies can attract athletes with a "scholarship" that remains even if cut from the team, quits the sport or is injured and "cut", or has inadequate grades and becomes ineligible (which can & does happen to even super high SAT scorers). Imagine if a school like Northwestern University--a USNews Top 15 National University with a Top 10 Endowment among both LACs & Nat'l Univs. and a spectacular lakefront (ocean, really) setting and several programs ranked either number one in the world (Journalism School) or number one in the country (e.g. theatre)--offered merit scholarships;</p>
<p>I am in favor of schools offering financial aid full tuition scholarships to those students whose families earn below a certain threshold level. I am in favor of merit scholarships as well to attract a high level of student. Of course, only a few dozen schools could afford these types of scholarships. Northwestern is easily among the schools that could afford to do this yet Northwestern still commands top 15, top 10 & top 5 rankings in a vast array of categories without doing so. Many Ivies, Amherst & Williams, WashUStL, Chicago, Davidson, Vanderbilt, etc. do otherwise &, of course, are highly ranked. Generous financial aid & merit scholarships significantly increase applications, thus reducing acceptance rates & increasing yield. If Northwestern follows the lead of Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Amherst & Williams, its application volume will soar, acceptance rate drop to the teens, and yield will soar as it will become much more predictable. Without these incentives, Northwestern enjoys a Top 12 ranking in USNews and is well known to be very honest in its reporting & does not play statistics games to boost its ratings which, in turn, increase rankings. For anyone to suggest that Northwestern University is not as good as, or better than most Ivies, is simply to admit one's utter lack of knowledge on the subject.
(One Ivy, as many know, is an absolute joke, but a very popular joke, in terms of "demanding academics & challenging programs"--and this is in no way referring to Cornell which is as good as any school in the country as is Johns Hopkins).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Bescraze,
You've been repeating this same propaganda all over CC. ColdWind already listed the test scores to show WashU/NU/Chicago are on par with those ivies in terms of strength of study body. "no way" is such a strong word and I hope you can refrain from using words like this when you are comparing top colleges. I am too lazy to look up financial resource data. What do you know about "academic programs"? You haven't even gone to college yet. This is an area that is difficult to measure for undergrads. The closest thing out there is graduate ranking and I don't think you want to go to that direction cos you know when it comes to that, Chicago and Northwestern blow two Ivies (and you know which ones) out of the water.</p>
<p>I don't mean to be impolite, but my son is a student at Northwestern University. He is a graduate of one of the top 3 prep schools in the world and received fly-in offers & recruitment offers from more than one Ivy, including one of the big 3. He did not even apply to any school in the northeastern portion of the country. He wanted Northwestern and turned down unusually significant merit scholarship offers to attend. I cried when he was accepted to Northwestern. We know, and are friends with several dozens of students who attend Harvard, Princeton, Penn & Penn's Wharton School, Cornell, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth. Only three that attend Yale. There is no way that you will be able to convince me that my son isn't surrounded by similiar students & equally demanding coursework. I feel confident in saying the same for families of students at Chicago, Rice & Johns Hopkins. Please do not attempt to convince me otherwise as my son & several family members have attended and/or graduated from Ivies.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Chicago, Northwestern, WashUStL & Johns Hopkins are all outstanding schools.
[/quote]
I have never said otherwise, but listing SAT scores is hardly an effective way to make judgments about the quality of a school (once get in a certain range. My good friend is at Wash U another is at Chicago, they are very good schools, but I promise you the qualifications of the kids there like at Hopkins are for the most part not the same as those kids who were accepted to Columbia, Penn or Brown for instance.
[quote]
you've been repeating this same propaganda all over CC.
[/quote]
Since when is a common knowledge of school rankings, coupled with objective data propaganda?
[quote]
ColdWind already listed the test scores to show WashU/NU/Chicago are on par with those ivies in terms of strength of study body
[/quote]
SAT scores are only one simple measurement of the strength of student body, which when a certain range is met are all but irrelevant. People know what GPAs are needed to get into top schools (much lower for NW, WASH U and Chicago than for Ivies), which is one factor. And another is selectivity, the lower the acceptance rate the more competitive a school can be in choosing the best of the best. By these measures those schools, especially NW Hopkins and Chicago fall pretty far behind. Finally it is not even a debate that schools like Penn and Columbia with endowments of 7+ billion are far wealthier than those other schools listed. Sam Lee I encourage you to look beyond your set-in beliefs and perhaps insecurities to recognize that some schools are considered better and more prestigious than others. I am not simply going by my opinion of that of my "aunts" (which I have no clear how you derived) to make a conclusion. But simply objective measurements, general consensus of numerous people and the use of certain rankings. If you look at what employers/educated individuals believe I think you will definitely see that that Hopkins, Wash U, Chicago and Northwestern, while great fail to hold up to the middle ivies in student input (intelligence ect...) or output (job opportunities).</p>
<p>Next time you attempt to be condescending, at least try and be right...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Only three that attend Yale. There is no way that you will be able to convince me that my son isn't surrounded by similiar students & equally demanding coursework.
[/quote]
My best friend was accepted from a top prep school to Hopkins and Wash U among others, and he chose to attend Wash U. He loves it and it is a great school, but he was not able to get into ivies and recognizes like other people that Wash U, while great is not as high as some other schools. It is not a criticism, but a reality. Your son at Northwestern would be in a minority that chose it over the Ivies and it does not make his peers or him any less intelligent. My advice is to stop looking at this so personally.</p>
<p>You are what you are, and you have clearly spelled it out for all to read. Absolutely amazing. A non-blind person who chooses to be blind. FYI Northwestern's Endowment exceeds $7 Billion. Last report it was $7.25 Billion and the school was deciding what to do with several hundred million ($900 million a portion of which ,I suspect, has made it to the Endowment Fund) from the sale of partial patent rights. But, look at me, arguing with a fool. Shame on me.</p>
<p>ColdWind...
Relax. Northwestern is a fine school.
Isn't this about stereotypes of Ivy schools?</p>
<p>Also, to be totally fair, Northwestern's scores went up 70 points this past year. Historically NU has been about 50-70 points behind the Dartmouth and Columbia's of the world. So that's why the perception exists.</p>
<p>Both Northwestern and the University of Chicago have benefited from the echo-boom overflow from the Ivy League.</p>
<p>Can you guys get back on topic? This thread was interesting..</p>
<p>yes seriously relax coldwind, you seem to be taking this thread personally... i wonder if you would be so adamant adn passionate about your viewpoint if your son didn't attend NU o</p>
<p>regardless all the top 15 universities are fine schools... this thread was meant for overall prestige, to simplify what is was looking for, think of this- </p>
<p>if you were an employer, and were reading applications, which applications would wow you, even in the midst of HYPS applications next to yours (would a NU degree be impressive to you if you were interviewing HYPS?).. which colleges would get leave the greatest impressions on friends and family?... those are some ways to think and simplify it</p>
<p>I saw somewhere on CC people mentioned that some schools report their SAT scores for admitted students while others report scores for matriculated students. If that is the case, we could end up comparing apples with oranges as far as the SAT scores are concerned.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since when is a common knowledge of school rankings, coupled with objective data propaganda?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Fact #1: USN has ranked WashU/Northwestern/Chicago higher than Brown/Cornell before.<br>
Conclusion #1: repeatedly telling people these three schools are "no way" on par with Ivies is propaganda.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Fact#2: Do you not know Northwestern's endowment has reached 7+ billion?
Conclusion #2: please stop being lazy and do some due diligence before making claims. What you've been doing is irresponsible and unethical.</p>
<p>slipper1234,</p>
<p>Northwestern's average went up 20 points, not 70 points last year.</p>
<p>More facts: endowment (2007) in billion USD
List</a> of U.S. colleges and universities by endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>Brown University 2.781
Columbia University 7.150
Northwestern University 6.503
University of Chicago 6.439
University of Pennsylvania 6.635
Washington University in St. Louis 5.695</p>
<p>endowment (2008) in billion USD:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/576232-endowment-news.html?highlight=endowment%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/576232-endowment-news.html?highlight=endowment</a></p>
<p>Columbia University not yet released
Northwestern University 7.25
University of Chicago 6.5
University of Pennsylvania 6.2
Washington University in St. Louis not yet released</p>
<p>Compare these numbers with Bescraze's claim:
I don't think Bescraze has any credibility whatsoever.</p>
<p>Wow those numbers make my schools feel poor. :(</p>
<p>Caltech is a bit smaller, though. You have ~$1.86 billion for ~2100 students, which is ~$885,000 a student. That isn't poor by any measure.</p>