Stop playing the race card

Chance Me / Match Me!
141

<p>danalynne's dad - i've witnessed admissions officers, college presidents, bitter denied students, and others complaining that there are too many jewish students at their colleges. their (not my) concern is that certain schools are becoming "too jappy" or jewish (this is a quote, not my language...) and are afraid that this will scare aware non-jewish students...there've been articles written about it in the nytimes, wall street journal, and other periodicals. what is so frightening about this is that it is EXACTLY what led to the systematic exclusion of jewish students at harvard, yale, princeton, penn, and other schools at the turn of the 20th century...</p>

<p>oracle...i've addressed these types of comments before...ask fabrizio to tell you the distinction between discrimination, preferences, and affirmative action...your assertion that "rich kids get the bar lowered" is so ABSOLUTELY incorrect and ludacris. do you know what kind of $$$ it takes to get considered a development case? usually in the millions. do you know how many of these kids are getting into most highly selective colleges? few...zero at my institution this year...and we're entering a major capital campaign. some institutions are notorious for their development cases, but the vast majority of highly selective colleges might see 2 or 3 of these kids in their classes per year. do you know where the money these kids bring into the college or university usually goes to? financial aid funding...gee, what a horrible thing. oh, and btw, most development kids are usually HIGHLY competitive for admission to these schools - and remember, NO ONE GETS INTO HIGHLY SELECTIVE COLLEGES IF THEY CANNOT HANDLE THE WORK ACADEMICALLY. </p>

<p>yeah, there are poor white kids and asian kids...however, there are PROPORTIONALLY more black and Latino kids in this country than there are white and asian kids. there are more poor white kids in absolute terms, but proportionally, black and Latino kids are getting the short end of the stick...in addition, there have been studies done about teacher/counselor preferences done which indicate that there is an inclination in these professions to work at predominantly white schools over other schools with a more heterogenous population or a school that is predominantly minority in population. </p>

<p>fabrizio...all students are looked at with respect to the total applicant pools at their schools. but yes, they are also looked at with respect to school group as this is the best way for us to compare apples to apples academically...a kid going to high school x has the same courses offered to them as does another kid going to the same high school. the barometer is the same...is it fair to judge a student's achievements who goes to a high school that offers 20 ap courses and another student's achievements who goes to a high school that offers 3 AP courses, or no AP courses, in the same way? no...i agree with you that certain things are not synonymous with others, as you mention. however, we don't assume or presume anything while reading files. do i assume that a students who is black has been psychologically scarred and hasn't achieved well just because they are black? no. if they go to a predominantly white high school, mention that they have been affected by prejudice in their educational path, and have a hard time interacting with their peers because of cultural or racial differences, do i consider the possiblity that maybe they didn't get a 2350 on their SAT because, perhaps, they weren't able to achieve as much as their white peers at the same school? yes. same way i would if the students' races were reversed (which i did in fact do this year with a white student attending a predominantly black high school). last comment to you - affirmative action and racial preferences ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS - we've been through that before on another thread you hijacked.</p>

142

<p>If "NO ONE GETS INTO HIGHLY SELECTIVE COLLEGES IF THEY CANNOT HANDLE THE WORK ACADEMICALLY. "</p>

<p>If all the urms accepted are qualified and should be accepted even w/o race,</p>

<p>why do we still need AA? </p>

<p>you keep saying how terrible their background is, but if they aren't qualified to handle the work they'll get rejected (quote by u), and if they are they'll get accepted either way (quote by u).
Assuming all you said is correct, AA is redundant</p>

143

<p>AdOfficer,</p>

<p>I have never claimed that comparing applicants to other applicants of the same high school is an unfair practice. I have, however, claimed that comments like "not another boring Asian" are unfair and, quite frankly, racist.</p>

<p>There's a huge difference between that remark and "not another boring person." Even "yet another lame applicant from X high school" is more neutral.</p>

<p>Indeed, affirmative action does not have to be a system of racial preferences. Its current implementation, however, involves preferential treatment toward certain races and not others.</p>

<p>We can have aggressive nondiscrimination (classical affirmative action) without resorting to racial preferences.</p>

<p>We can have outreach programs that tell students that they can succeed if they choose to attend a vocational school or a university as long as they prepare themselves. As a form of outreach, this is an application of affirmative action.</p>

<p>I'm all for those types of affirmative action. I'm just totally against the idea that certain races NEED preferential treatment or else they'll</p>

<ol>
<li>get lost in the stack</li>
<li>feel left out</li>
<li>get chances taken away from them</li>
<li>[insert lame excuse here]</li>
</ol>

144

<p>AdOfficer: I'll ask my question of you for the third time. Is the number of kids in a family considered in the admissions process? Presuming you are trying to level the playing field when picking kids worthy of admission, it would make sense that an only child had more advantages, both financial resources & parental time/attention than a kid from a larger family. Do you factor that in?</p>

145

<p>AdOfficer:</p>

<p>I must have been lulled into a false sense that anti-semetism no longer exists at the majority of colleges and universities. When I was at NYU from 1965-69 I would visit friends at Yale and Penn and they would tell me stories of all the prep school kids who were rabidly anti-semetic. It is disturbing to read your post on that issue. Would you call your observations a recent growing trend or an aberration?
It has been very interesting taking this parental journey with my daughter through the college admissions game.. She is only applying to LACs. I had no idea at the beginning of her college search how these small schools microscopically craft their classes. We were unschooled and felt at the outset that if a kid had great SATs, a top of the class rank and 3.97 GPA uw plus all of the other self-defining activities that was enough. We didn't then realize about demographics, geographics, socio-economics and the other minutia of how small schools structure a class. There ought to be a college prep course for kids and parents in thisrealm. Wait a minute, there is : College Confidential.
I have volunteered to give my time to my D's high school to help parents in the future make their way thru this mine field.
I have enjoyed learning more from your postings.</p>

<p>Dana's Dad</p>

146

<p>sorry it is really late, i've been reading after a VERY long day of committee today (omg we are denying some of the most amazing kids i've ever read!!!!). i can't respond tonight...i'm fried. i'll try to respond to y'all tomorrow.
AO</p>

147

<p>stickershock...</p>

<p>since you've been so patient though, i'll respond to you quickly...</p>

<p>we do look at the number so siblings an applicant has, and at times it can come into play. for example, if we see a couple siblings who have all gone to excellent schools, we're pretty confident our current applicant is probably getting support at home in their educational pursuits. if we see a kid with several siblings who haven't gone to college or are only enrolled in community colleges, we'll probably guess that mom and dad (if both are around) are working a lot or aren't around a lot to give kids the extra push they may need. </p>

<p>parents' level of educational attainment has a lot to do with students' educational attainment...there are a lot of kids out there who don't have parents that attended college, and these kids have <em>often times</em> achieved less than their peers who do have parents who went to college...its not that they are weaker...usually its just that students with parents who attended college usually have the attitude, goal, or assumption that college is in their future and this provides an extra incentive to do well in school and challenge oneself; kids with parents who have not graduated from college often times don't necessarily think its going to be a reality. fortunately, many colleges are doing outreach to these students to let them know that college IS a reality for them.</p>

148

<p>Fabrizio...all those things you listed are out of the college's hands.</p>

149

<p>Non-Chalant1,</p>

<p>All?</p>

<p>Colleges can implement a random ID system which prevents making biased judgments based on race, gender, name, and so forth.</p>

<p>Colleges can sponsor outreach programs that ask students what they'd like to be and help them get there (e.g. by offering tutoring, mentoring, support, etc.).</p>

<p>Colleges do not have to buy the gospel of "level playing fields" and "iNcLuSiOn."</p>

<p>Anyway, to get back on topic, based on my understanding, the OP is unhappy that his achievements are being downplayed because he is a minority.</p>

<p>I'll say that it's very disrespectful to tell a hardworking and talented student something like, "Ooh! You're an 'under-represented' minority! Shoo in!"</p>

<p>A parent here posted a story about his son. Based on what he (the parent) described, his son was a great student with passion. In addition, he had very strong dignity. When he was told that he would be a "shoo in" at an elite institution, he said 'no' to that college and picked one that treated him as an individual. He has since become very successful in his career.</p>

<p>I applaud such individuals. They have dignity. They have self-worth. They know that they worked hard to earn what they have, and they don't want their accomplishments to be degraded.</p>

<p>Interestingly, his father is very supportive of modern affirmative action. When he told the forum his story, he expected readers to be "moved" and become supportive of preferential treatment. He did not expect readers to see how strong his son is and why affirmative action is unnecessary.</p>

150

<p>I was referring to those programs that reach out to this or that. You can't expect them to do that in every community. Some of the other things you listed I just flat out don't agree with, but that's a different story. I have some studying to do so I can't read through your entire post, but I will respond later unless someone already says what I have in mind. I do get ****ed off when I heard that I have the "whole black thing going for me" though. A couple of people have uttered those type of statements.....maybe it's because I don't fit into some bookworm stereotype or I have a nonchalant attitude like the name says.</p>

151

<p>o well guys, lifes a ***** then u die. if u dont like harvards admission policy then go find another college. it's that simple.</p>

152

<p>@Bearcat, </p>

<p>you say Asians are overqualified but always get rejected right?
How come it is usually just the Chinese and Koreans (fast developing countries) and not Hmong (i'm not sure what country), vietnamese,Thais, Cambodians, Laosians,e.t.c (people from poorer asian countries <em>sorry if i spelled them wrong</em>) that usually have these "great stats."
in my school for example, it is usually the koreans and chinese that can identify with the "asian nerd" stereotype (and sometimes Japanese). most other asians don't and are average kids or even doing rather poorly.</p>

<p>also, usually these "asian nerds" are first or second generation immigrants with parents that were already educated or professionals in their native countries.</p>

<p>anyways, you can always apply to UMICH.
or UC berkerly. what is it, 65% chinese and koreans? </p>

<p>I personally support Affirmative Action to benefit underrepresented people. 'cause they need representation.</p>

153

<p>why is representation based on race?
ppl love to just assume it must be based on race.
why dont we base on % of gay people, % of ppl under 5 ft, or % of ppl who have 2 nationalities...blah blah blah
don't give me the certain races do poorer crap, b/c social-economics can cover that COMPLETELY.
plus, gay people are pushed and made fun of often times, why dont we have a set % of gay people or any other thing? or % of people with certain disease?
using race is just ridiculous</p>

154

<p>no, its not ridiculous. Whether you like it or not, race has been the most delicate issue the United States must deal with. We are a nation that is proud of diversity, a melting pot. However, it is impossible to deny that racism still exists very much. We like to say that blacks are equals with whites or asians or hispanics, or other races, but that fact of the matter is that this is completely untrue. We may not like to say it, but blacks or hispanics or asians will never been seen as true equals to a white person. I'm not saying that all white people look down on minorities, but you can't deny that many of them do. Affirmative action only makes up a small percentage of this racism, but it is absolutely neccessary. America is very much a white nation where our society and government are dominated by white people. Don't tell me that it's ridiculous to give a slight advantage to a minority when you being caucasian has already given you too many advantages that minorities never receive.</p>

155

<p>Haha, sorry to be a picky ******, "but a nation that is proud of diversity" is not considered a melting pot, it's termed as a "salad" in th vernacular sense. A melting pot is where cultural identities are merged and cultural identification lost.
I'm a first generation Chinese American, my parents are not horrifically wealthy. Is it fair that I get lumped together with other Chinese American applicants who are wealthy and can afford better preparation?</p>

156

<p>self-centered whiners!</p>

<ul>
<li>i want different backgrounds at my school.</li>
<li>i don't think race is the only indicator of perspective or personal triumps.</li>
<li>i also think wealth, geo area, parent occupations, attractiveness, style, personal preferences, how different you are compared to your peers at your current school, what values you were raised with, work experience, sexual orientation, etc. are also great indicators of perspective and life experience</li>
<li>however, only the first 3 can be realistically measured statistically. they're practical.</li>
<li>therefore, those are the ones used.</li>
<li>colleges are trying to avoid the elitist image.</li>
<li>they're fond of URM's because of this.</li>
<li>they want to build the strongest class possible.</li>
<li>test scores don't measure a class's strength at all</li>
<li>i don't want schools based on test scores. if you think about, you don't want it either.</li>
<li>they don't feel they need to pay allegiance to kids who slave over SAT prep books. it's not about that. it's not like, "hey i studied for 987 hours and got rid of my friends in the process. how dare you not let me in?"</li>
</ul>

<p>PS: I'm white.</p>

<p>Who has experienced many life-altering, traumatizing events and grew up feeling like I was on the bottom of the world. Not really your priveleged, rosy-cheeked, happy-go-lucky white girl that comes to mind. More than any URM I know/have heard of. I have extremely high scores/accomplishments for everything I've been threw, but won't receive any assistance in the admissions office for my triumphs. But I'm a stronger PERSON because of it. And when push comes to shove, the aforementioned rosy-cheeked, sheltered girl won't compare with my resilience in the real world. I've accomplished so much because my drive compensates for my late start. I never, ever ask for help because I've never recieved it. It's a really bad habit of mine. I never ask for help. Not because I'm narcissistic, but because I'm so used to doing everythingggg myself.. and not having access to help. I've been taking care of myself for a longgg time now. Since I was around 7 I would say. I flew across the country alone at age 5. No joke. These experiences are my privelege. I have such an advantage over others because of my experiences. I could tear apart any priveleged kid in any competition because of this.. and he/she doesn't even know it. I have something special that will put me ahead of others for the rest of my life.</p>

157

<p>i sympathized with you until your fifth or sixth parrallel, sorry</p>

<p>i still agree with your points though</p>

158

<p>Kenny just came up with the most retarded points ever in history.......another bitter person. My uncle used to be an admission officer as Syracuse University and taught there....he knows a lot about the process......from what I've been told affirmative action is highly overrated as far as it's overall effect. So if you got rejected you probably would have been rejected anyway.</p>

159

<p>I really haven't read this entire thread but today at work a colleague who is a minority told me that her son made it into Columbia. My D has applied but we are awaiting decision. She has told me his grades and they are not outstanding. I would have to guess that the URM status helped gain admission. I was as happy as a pig in **** for her. It could not happen to a nicer person. She will be also receiving good aid eventhough she and her H own a home and both make good money. </p>

<p>If my D gets in and I do not receive a thing and can't swing it without loans that will take me into my retirement then she will go to state but I will still be happy for my colleague.</p>

160

<p>All I know is grades don't necesarily measure a student's worth and in my colleges essays I found a subte way of mentioning that. I have friends who are URMs (like myself) with better grades that I have that have been rejected from top schools like Tufts.....so it's no guarantee. In fact I got in UMich and was deferred from UConn(I know.....I know...I'm still confused too).....but I know white kids with weaker stats who got into UConn....so I'm not sure there's a science to this whole admissions process.</p>