<p>Let's agree on one thing: AA helps...a lot. Let's look at med school admissions:</p>
<p>average MCAT score for URM matriculants ~27 (slightly better than 50th percentile)
average MCAT score for white/asian matriculants ~32 (approx. 90th percentile)</p>
<p>It always amazes me how the most ardent defenders of affirmative action are always the ones who try to deny its importance in college admissions. It is a HUGE advantage. Don't kid yourself.</p>
<p>Fabrizio...</p>
<p>Again, your use of the word <em>preferences</em> is not appropriate. No one in admissions "prefers" one race of student over another. We never "prefer" to take a black student over an Asian student, a white student over a Latino student. It just does not work that way!</p>
<p>Here's the bottom line folks - we are looking for students who are academically qualified to do the work at our institutions who will 1) add something new, different, or unique to the community and classroom, 2) will bring a new, different, or unique perspective to the community and classroom, and 3) be able to grow personally, realize their potential academically, and contribute to the growth and realization of others at the school. Too many of you seem to think that "academically qualified to do the work at our institutions" means having monster SAT/ACT scores and a perfect high school transcript. I'm sorry to break any of your hearts guys, but THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE ADMISSIBLE! Kids with SATs below 2000 and B averages can hack it academically at the Ivies, Stanford, Amherst, Williams, etc...,...you do not have to be perfect stats-wise to be qualified academically at these schools. </p>
<p>Race, socioeconomic status, gender, sexuality, geography, culture, and other factors influence who a person is, how they view the world, and what they can bring to a college campus...we're simply looking for the most interesting and compelling kids to bring to our campuses. Quite frankly, I would not want to go to a college where everyone - whether they were white, black, Asian, Latino, purple, green, polka dotted, WHATEVER - only grinded out grades. I would rather attend college with people who were different from me, actually cared about learning instead of just getting A's, had different perspectives than me, different life experiences than me, and a different personality than me so that I could learn more from them and more about myself. This is, pedagologically, why diversity - in all of its forms - is desirable in education. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, higher education in this country has become a comodity and people have decided that they are <em>entitled</em> to a certain education at certain schools...somehow, individuals have decided that they "merit" access to certain schools...I got news for you all - people "merit" access to education for different reasons and as such, different kinds of people are going to be admitted. That's how it is...</p>
<p>danalynne's dad...</p>
<p>Yes, that's right. We are not living in a world where anti-semitism has been eradicated. Go figure! </p>
<p>My observations are not aberrations...this has been a growing trend...it's been growing since the late '80s and hasn't really shown signs of stopping. Some schools - like Vanderbilt - have been actively recruiting Jewish students because, in the eyes of their administrations and, to quote Gordon Gee, the president of Vandy, "Jewish students, by culture and by ability and by the very nature of their liveliness, make a university a much more habitable place in terms of intellectual life," (this is a quote from an interview he did as part of a 2002 article in the Wall Street Journal about colleges courting Jewish students). Basically, these schools think that somehow much Jewish students will add to the prestige of their institutions while others certainly do not go out of their way to attract Jewish students as they fear too many Jewish students will scare away other students (yes, the same reason Harvard, Columbia, and Princeton actively discriminated against them in their admissions processes at the turn of the 20th Century through to the 60s). There are some very prestigious institutions where Jewish students still experience hostility...I personally did not attend one particular school in New Jersey that I was admitted to because of slurs I heard while on my tour there...I'm not Jewish, but I still found it offensive. At other schools, like the one I did attend, Jewish students were very comfortable, as were black students, Latino students, Asian American students, and everyone else.</p>
<p>AdOfficer-</p>
<p>Here a quote I saw in the Chronicle of Higher Ed</p>
<p>"The biggest strength of the admissions process is the talent and commitment of admissions professionals. As a group, American deans and directors of admissions have a highly nuanced understanding of student potential. The admissions officers I have come to know in my work are professional, fair, and have a gift for astute admissions decisions based on a comprehensive understanding of each applicant and of their institution's mission. </p>
<p>Another great strength of the admissions community comes from its commitment to expanding the applicant pool to include more low-income and minority students."</p>
<p>GASTON CAPERTON
President, College Board</p>
<p>I tend to agree.</p>
<p>AdOfficer,</p>
<p>Racial preferences simply refers to unequal treatment among students of different races.</p>
<p>
[quote]
…we are looking for students who are academically qualified to do the work at our institutions who will 1) add something new, different, or unique to the community and classroom, 2) will bring a new, different, or unique perspective to the community and classroom, and 3) be able to grow personally, realize their potential academically, and contribute to the growth and realization of others at the school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Could you please tell me how race-blind admissions results in a homogenous and hive-minded student body? I believe that each individual is unique by definition. Race-blind admissions does not make it more difficult for you to achieve your three criteria.</p>
<p>You mention that students with SATs below 2000 and ~3.0 averages can “hack it academically at the Ivies, Stanford, Amherst, Williams, etc…” Could you please define hack it? If ‘hacking it’ means graduating with the lowest possible GPA, then yeah, you’d be hard pressed to find a single individual at those institutions who couldn’t ‘hack it.’ Contingent acceptances (e.g. you must take remedial coursework in the summer) and grade inflation do wonders, as well.</p>
<p>You’ve stated that you wouldn’t want to go to a college where all students are of the same race and personality. Could you describe such a college? I doubt one exists in our nation. Do you believe that without race as a factor, colleges would become bland, boring, and dry? I don’t.</p>
<p>I’m sure some students do believe that they’re entitled to admission. I’m not one of them. Neither is Li Jian. Some students just feel that no one should be treated preferentially. And for this, they are labeled as “ingrates who think they’re special” by parents with, shall we say, ‘interesting’ viewpoints.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Another great strength of the admissions community comes from its commitment to expanding the applicant pool to include more low-income and minority students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Expand the applicant pool as in encourage students to take harder classes, be more involved with their communities and high schools, and better themselves academically, mentally, and physically?</p>
<p>I’m for that.</p>
<p>Expand the applicant pool as in give preferential treatment to students based on their skin color?</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>"another bitter person"
I'm sorry, Non-Chalant1, but AA doesn't affect me AT ALL.
As an internaitonal student, it's harder than asian americans, so it's doesn't matter to me at all. I was giving examples to explain how ridiculous it is.</p>
<p>Non-Chalant1 just came up with the most illogical point ever.
"I've been told affirmative action is highly overrated as far as it's overall effect. So if you got rejected you probably would have been rejected anyway"
in that case, why do strong urm applicants need AA?
you're contradicting yourself...learn some logic before making ignorant personal judges.</p>
<p>norcalguy makes a good point, </p>
<p>I'm sorry, Non-Chalant1, but numbers don't lie, people do. Statistics seems to be much mre reliable than your personal opinion...
you accused me of being another bitter person, yet AA doesn't apply to me. On the other hand, you're an urm who's supporting AA. HA! Who's the one biased now?
Although some people do look at AA objectively, many people here seems to support it b/c he's urm and reject it b/c he's white or asian.
That's not the case, as I have mentioned before in this thread, we should discuss this objectively. I'm sorry Non-Chalant1, but your accusation doesn't make sense at all, and in comparison, YOU are the one who's subjective.</p>
<p>Sorry Fab, I am going to tend to belive professionals that take a holistic view over someone with just an opinion.</p>
<p>I'm just glad you're not in admissions.</p>
<p>Over and out!</p>
<p>JohnG,</p>
<p>Does this "someone with just an opinion" not have a holistic view?</p>
<p>Does holistic review have to include race?</p>
<p>It's really interesting. I've consistently stated that extracurriculars, community involvement, and essays should be evaluated in addition to grades and test scores. To me, that is holistic. To others, my refusal to include race means that even though I think factors beyond numbers should be considered, my idea is not "holistic."</p>
<p>Why exactly are you glad that I'm not in admissions? Is it because I prefer to look beyond skin color to see character while you don't?</p>
<p>Just wondering.</p>
<p>Fabrizio...</p>
<p>If we do not consider a student's racial or ethnic background in the admissions process, we ignore any social and psychological effects racism, discrimination, and intimidation have had in the academic achievements of students. Ignoring race ignores the fact that racism, discrimination, and intimidation still exist in our high schools. Have we come a long way since the Civil War? Absolutely. Is it enough? No. We also ignore the fact that, as a race, white students have traditionally been privileged in the education systems in the country for centuries...there are families in this country with generation after generation of college graduates while a much larger proportion of black and Latino students have, at most, one generation of college education in their families. If and where your parents went to college matters...</p>
<p>Your continued insistence that there are "preferences" in the admissions process is just bunk Fab. All students get their fair shot - applications get read with full consideration to how a student can contribute to the college community academically, socially, culturally, extracurricularly, and perspective-wise. In addition, understanding how a specific student could add to a community is much more complex than just "Oh, he's black, so he must have this perspective because we assume these things because he's black." It just does not work in this way...we dissect your applications - often to the point of exhaustion. </p>
<p>"Hack it" does not mean struggle to graduate. It means able to take classes, do the work, and get decent grades. It is often said that the hardest part about certain colleges is getting in, and this is true at a lot of places. It's not so much the actual work one is doing, but the level of engagement and learning how to think where most of the work is. B's get degrees...that doesn't mean you're going to "learn" anything however...we want kids who are going to learn and learn how to think...straight A's and a 2400 SAT don't necessarily mean you are going to learn and learn how to think...if all you care about is getting an A, you're not in it for the actually education and become learned. </p>
<p>"Expand the applicant pool as in encourage students to take harder classes, be more involved with their communities and high schools, and better themselves academically, mentally, and physically? I'm for that." Gee Fab, what a novel idea! Too bad NOT ALL STUDENTS HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITES TO TAKE HARDER CLASSES!!!! Do you really think that all students are offered honors or AP courses at their high schools? Do you really think that all students have the opportunity or resources to take community college or college classes in high school? Do you really think all high schools in this country are created equal? Do you really think that if an URM student attends a high school that DOES offer these opportunities and does not take advantage of them we are likely to admit them? </p>
<p>kenny616 - you're wrong...at most colleges in the United States, it is not more difficult for international students to be admitted compared to Asian American students - or any domestic student for that matter. In fact, at most schools, international students are, in general, less competitive academically and otherwise when compared to the domestic pools, unless they are competing for need-based financial aid, which very few schools offer.</p>
<p>or maybe we're talking about different colleges?
some of the colleges I looked on their website specially sited it's much harder for internaitonal students.
I can understand different colleges have different ways of admissions, but maybe we're referring to different colleges.</p>
<p>I do not have the opportunity to take one Honors or AP class. I would love to take a college class and just learn so many new things and everything, but i cant. I have worked for everything that I have. I have a single mother and a deadbeet father who lives in another country, 3000 miles away who doesnt py child support and has been in and out of jail for a while. I have a developementally-challenged younger brother who I have full responsibility for when my mother works full time. We live in the ghetto in a run down city with a huge gang problem. I have insomnia because of this. My house was broken into 3 times in the past 5 weeks. In the middle of the night, when my mother works.. so I end up staying up late so I'm not raped in the middle of the night or something. I have trouble walking to the kitchen to get water in the middle of the night because I've found strangers there before. I'm the poor kid at my school - even in this neighborhood. My clothes are all big on me because I can't afford to buy new clothes.. I just lost 30 pounds, and am now skinny dog. My ribs poke through my skin. I lost this weight because I have a disease. My hair falls out in clumps every day (I used to have thick hair, and now its veyr scarce) and I can't eat much or I get sick. The health clinic we go to can't figure out what's wrong with me, and we can't afford a specialist. I'm always tired because of it. Sometimes, if I don't have an alarm, I sleep for 18 hours straight. No joke. Sometimes I stumble like I'm drunk because of this disease. Sometimes when I wake up and walk around I cant walk striagt because i'm so tired and should be sleeping. But I work my ass off anyway, no matter how dreary I am. I study all day and I love learning. It's the one thing I have to escape. I've experienced the stares, the snickers, the questions ("Wait, why can't you come on the field trip?".."Because I don't have ten dollars.") and the comments. But I've persevered. I've never asked for help. Theres no poor white girl college fund. Theres not poor white girl coalition or poor white girl charity drive. Buat ive done it. I've never had a tutor and i've never been to an SAT prep course. i don't ever have a SAT book! My school doesn't offer languages, so I don't know any languages besided English. My school doesn't teach past geometry, so I cant even take the Math portion of the SAT Test!! When I get the chance, I do some problems online, trying to teach myself Intermediate Algebra. I have straight a's. Theres are no activities at my school, and I can't afford any others, so I don't have any extracurriculars. I have to take care of my family, and that takes up a lot of time.</p>
<p>Why should someone who has been treated like a minority her whole life not get recognition for that in the admissions process?</p>
<p>I will neer get into a college that has great financial aid because ic ant even study for the SAT s or even learn the material!!!! I cnat get in with nor extracurriculas! Or one advanced grade! Thats not fair! I'm sure I'm the second hardest working kid in the admissions pool, if nto first, and have oustanding grades for my background, btt thats not enough because im white!! I'm not "WHITE". I'm nto privelegd! i dont live in a wite nighborhood. we make less than the average white perosn. I dont have access to things most minorities have access to! Im going to be living this lifestyel for the rest of my life!! Dont you dare tell me thats the least nnit fair admissions process. Admitting some pampered middle class whitye kid who has so many opportunities over someone who has it worse than most minorites.</p>
<p>
[quote]
or maybe we're talking about different colleges? some of the colleges I looked on their website specially sited it's much harder for internaitonal students. I can understand different colleges have different ways of admissions, but maybe we're referring to different colleges.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Many colleges also state that the reason it is harder for international students is that the overwhelming majority of colleges are not need blind to international students (so unless you are an international student who can afford to pay full freight your chances for admissions are going to be limited. </p>
<p>Remember at most schools international students are not eligible for federal aid, cannot work off campus, will have a hard time getting loans in the U.S. with out a co-signer so in a sense they are pretty much dependent on the school or scholarship agency for funding). Even at schools with funding, financial aid is limited, and there is not enough money to fund students who want to attend (this could also be applied to U.S. citizens/permanent residents).</p>
<p>In this respect, yes it is harder or more difficult for an international student to be admitted.</p>
<p>Crims: I hope you are applying to college. I hope your mom will be able to let you go to college and find someone to care for your sibling. I hope that accomplished admissions professionals such as AdOfficer champion your cause. We can all see your raw material. Given a chance and with appropriate remedial help the stars are your limits. Good luck!</p>
<p>Adofficer:</p>
<p>Maybe I should have had my D use my lovely wife's last name(Irish) instead of my last name(Russian Jew). Vandy president has it right. I am an attorney in a major urban area and have lived in NYC, D.C, Phoenix and central NYState and I have never, outside of one incident while at basic training in the army experienced anti-semetism. It is disheartening to know that it exists in colleges that are "liberal bastions" of social discourse. We Jews are cool folk who only bring (as a generalization) open minds and a wide perspective to a diverse community such as a college or university. Whisper in my ear AdOfficer the names of those offending schools. I guess we continue to be a discriminated minority. You know folks there are fewer Jews in the US than blacks, Asians, Hispanics etc.</p>
<p>crims - You're wrong...All of what you have been going through IS going to be considered when you apply to college...at least if you are applying to the most selective colleges out there. keep in mind that although there are more black and Latino students living in poverty <em>proportionally</em> (meaning as a proportion of their race) than white students, there are still many more white students <em>in absolute terms</em> (meaning sheer number) who live in poverty than black and Latino students. WE'RE NOT BLIND TO THIS...I would strong suggest you go to <a href="http://www.questbridge.org%5B/url%5D">www.questbridge.org</a> and look into them!!! they can help kids like you in the college search process...</p>
<p>kenny...international students without financial need are "hooked" significantly in the admissions process, particularly at schools that are not need-blind (and this is the vast majority of colleges and universities in this country, including a lot of the top schools here). many schools who are not need-blind are willing to take an international student who is not as strong as a total package because they are full pay...for international students with financial need, it is extremely difficult to gain admission to top schools that do offer aid because there is so little funding available for international students. at schools that do not have financial aid for international students, it is virtually impossible to get in. however, the majority of international students applying to American colleges and universities do not have need. </p>
<p>dana's dad...you can probably guess which student bodies are the worst offenders...and while I applaud Vandy and others who are actively recruiting these students, I do have to remind myself that it is only out of self-interest and prestige-seeking...the Jewish experience is not looked at in the same and has never been looked at in the same way as facing racism or racial discrimination, despite there being rampant anti-Semitism in a lot of this country. I'm not sure why racial discrimination and religious discrimination should be looked at differently...I guess one could argue that religion is "a choice," while race is not, but religion is so culturally entrenched that it is hard to make that argument...</p>
<p>One other thing that needs to be considered is the performance of URM's in colleges. I don't think it'll surprise anyone to find that there is a large discrepancy in minority and ORM graduation rates in "unnurturing" places like Cornell or Berkeley. When you let in students that are not academically fit, that's what's going to happen.</p>
<p>Defenders of affirmative action point to the high URM graduation rates in grade-inflated schools like Harvard or Yale as a sign of progress. The problem with grade inflation is that it makes it hard to distinguish between great and average students. If the mean in a class is curved to an A- (as it often is at Harvard), you would have to score 2 std. dev below the mean to fail the class . Of course graduation rates are going to be high. But does that mean learning is taking place? If you're consistently scoring in the bottom 3% of your class, you're not learning enough. </p>
<p>This is particularly a problem in medical schools. A study done in 2003 found that graduates of Howard and Meharry Medical Schools were deciplined and put on probation more than graduates of any other US allopathic medical school. Is it a coincidence that these two schools have the lowest avg. MCAT scores (approx. 25) of any allopathic schools in the country? Not only are ORMs crying of reverse discrimination, not only are we hurting the minorities themselves by placing them in situations where they are more likely to fail, we are producing incompetent graduates. In the case of medical schools, we are hurting the patients. </p>
<p>I don't know how many times I've been accused of "being bitter that a minority is taking my spot." That seems to be the #1 argument of pro-AAers. Then I tell them that I have a 3.9+ at Cornell with a MCAT score that's in the 98th percentile and that usually shuts them up. </p>
<p>I'm not worried about people stealing my spot. I'm concerned with how best to increase the proportion of minorities in higher education. I don't think we should be lowering our GPA and SAT standards to their levels but rather we should be trying to raise their SAT scores to equal those of ORM's. I'm currently a coach/mentor in a program called Let's Get Ready. Each week I coach a group of local disadvantaged kids in Ithaca (many of whom are minorities) in the SAT's and also the college application process. I have no problem with providing additional opportunities like Let's Get Ready! for minorities because they're EARNING those extra SAT points. These kids are dedicated because they're willing to take extra time to attend a free SAT class. We need more volunteer programs like this and less handouts like affirmative action.</p>
<p>I guess your right, it depends on need.
unfortunately MIT and Stanford doesn't say so, but they are probably just two out of the vast majority colleges.
w/e, I feel like a waste of time trying to discuss things that doesn't even affect me, and being called "yet another bitter person"
Maybe this is just what CC is like? I guess I'm leaving this thread.
And thank you ad officer, for spending so much of your precious time up here during the season of applications.</p>
<p>But it won't show up. They'll see: Divorced parents. No foreign language. No math past geometry. No clubs. No awards. No sports. No arts. No leadership positions. No job. White. Female. Lower-middle class. SAT 1900. Needs full-ride.</p>
<p>Be honest.. you wouldn't admit them. What's special about the above?</p>