Story of my 3 Asian classmates and 1 friend from my area (including myself)

Parents Forum
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<p>It took 93 posts before this was noticed. ;)</p>

<p>By the way, I don’t know if this is the fault of GC’s, independent counselors (I doubt that), parents, high school faculty, or college tour guides – or students taking all their information from Urban Legends, but it has been at least 8 years, 8, that the Ivies, MIT, and Stanford have stopped heavily weighting scores as a priority in admission over other more varied aspects of achievement, such as stand-out e.c.'s and stand-out awards and non-racial distinctions from one’s classmates.</p>

<p>So either students are choosing to refuse information from qualified, informed adults, or said advising adults are a minimum of 8 years behind the trends.</p>

<p>Scores do not, in themselves, “qualify” one for an Elite U. Yes they can be coached. The data is there for those who do not refuse to look at the data. Wikipedia is a weak source, and collegeboard has continued to misrepresent this for years. Real life examples of high school students from even the 8 schools I work with has proven that disciplined effort combined with the right kind of test prep and frequent follow-up can raise scores easily 300 pts. in total, often more, for those whose first test effort is >2100. For those at or above 2100, an increase in 150-200 pts is not uncommon. When collegeboard is talking “20 points,” that is without a Game Plan (a disciplined and time-sensitive strategy). A mere ‘second sitting’ results in little difference unless the areas of weakness are rigorously focused on and mastered.</p>

<p>And the SAT is a weak predictor of college success beyond Year One, or at the most Year Two. (The research about that is also out there.) And it absolutely is no predictor of success beyond college, which as I’ve said for 7 years now on this forum, is very, very important to Elite U’s. I’ve said it not because I made up some theory or have unusual insight but because it is so obvious, and many other observant people have also noticed it. </p>

<p>Yes, there are some people who get high scores in single sittings, but even that is not a predictor of success, because the skills required in college do not mimic the SAT or ACT. College work generally, even in a final exam, is not about bursts of test sections 20 minutes at a time, but longer, slower, developed analysis and synthesis, as evident in papers after often a great deal of reading and/or at least some research. Many U’s now require a true senior thesis which comes close in scope to a paper for a Master’s Level, with the previous undergrad years a build-up to that. Even undergrad work in the sciences, math, engineering does not mimic the format of the SAT/ACT.</p>

<p>And like mini and menloparkmom, I guess I’ll get flamed for “insensitivity,” but how long is the learning curve on this? Either it’s brand new ■■■■■■ every year, or people are not looking at the evidence.</p>

<p>“The action” has been in areas of achievement beyond scores and grades for a very long time now. If one is arguing that it shouldn’t be that way, that’s a different argument. You’re arguing that your own perception of ‘ability’ is superior to the experience that colleges have in indicators of ability, and that based on your definition of “qualified,” you are “more” qualified or “as” qualified as others. But it’s the college which defines ‘qualified.’</p>

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<p>I am not a ■■■■■. It is 100% true story.</p>

<p>I did not list my ECs because it will reveal who I am. </p>

<p>I was very upset when I was posting this.
“Strengths: None
Weaknesses: Everything”</p>

<p>It is true that I do not have national/international level recognitions.
But, do you think every single person who got accepted from Ivies, MIT and Stanford have “Big Awards”?</p>

<p>“So he’s taken no AP courses”</p>

<p>There are few very rigorous schools that do not offer AP courses.</p>

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<p>@20more,</p>

<p>A few facts and comments:</p>

<ol>
<li>University is first and foremost a business. It will act to its best business interest. Getting all Asian into its school does not fit its goal of widening the customer base and it is not good for the goal of maximizing its endowments.</li>
<li>Asian is classified as ORM in Ivy schools. Being Asian chances of admission is against you. This is a fact of life. Some day, you may want to establish you own unvierstity and decide on your own on the admissions policy.</li>
<li>Warren Buffett did not get into Ivy. So Ivy does not necessary make you a successful individual. Rejected by Ivies dost not mean all hopes are lost on your road to success.</li>
<li>Congratulations to your admissions to other great schools. </li>
<li>I am an Asian myself. I know how you feel. Move on and be successful in your future career. 10-20 years from now, there may be a good story to tell.</li>
</ol>

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<p>Would applying to more “top” schools affect the chances of admission?</p>

<p>In my view, a student has (unknown) personal odds of admission at each school to which the student is applying. These odds could be close to 0 or close to 100%, but for many students, they will be somewhere in the middle of the range. An individual student’s odds are not equal to the average % admitted, in general. A student’s odds of admission to any one school are not affected by the number of applications made. </p>

<p>A lot of the decision-making about admission is deterministic–that is, it is based on the quality of the application, and it is reproducible (at least in principle). However, I do think that there is an element of randomness in the selection process, as discussed at length on another thread, cited below. </p>

<p>If one allows for an element of randomness in admissions, then a student’s odds of admission to <em>some</em> top school are in fact affected by the number of applications made, unless the student’s personal odds are 0 at all schools or 100% at the first school to which the student applied.</p>

<p>I do find it somewhat unusual that none of the schools admitted any of this group of students.</p>

<p>There is a long discussion of the issue of admissions odds in the thread: Probability/Chance up if applying more Ivies schools?
With mathematics!</p>

<p>To repeat an earlier comment: I think that the publication of Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, and especially its timing, might have had an adverse impact on the admission of Asian students to “top” schools this year. </p>

<p>I also think that the OP has excellent options, yet I understand that rejection hurts.</p>

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<p>This probably occurs because SAT scores correlate with other qualities that admissions committees desire, not because high SAT scores by themselves increase chances of admissions. For example, MIT explicitly states that they do not care about SAT scores once you reach above above 700 on a section, yet if you look at their statistics, applicants with scores in the range of 750-800 have a higher acceptance rate than those with scores in range of 700-750, in any section.</p>

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<p>And Chua is not even a Chinese! She may have some elements of Chinese culture in her…Well i guess for selling her book that was a great PR move on her part, while having other Asian kids holding the bag…</p>

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<p>Their hard work WAS rewarded. The OP got into some very prestigious, excellent colleges. All statements like the above do is perpetuate this ridiculous notion that all that counts in life are the Ivies + MIT + Stanford.</p>

<p>I understand that the evidence shows that many high-stat Asians get denied admission from the Ivies, and that the Ivies accept many students who have lower stats. BUT: hundreds, maybe thousands of high-stat Asians DO get accepted to the Ivies. The Ivies are something like 20-30 percent Asian, which is significantly higher than their representation in the US population. Maybe these OP students didn’t win the lottery, but many many many high-stat Asians do get in.</p>

<p>And I seriously doubt that Amy Chua’s book had the slightest impact on admissions this year. They accept students based on their admissions folders, not on a best seller.</p>

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<p>Yes, according to the most recent census, the Asian population in the US is slightly above 4 percent. </p>

<p>Diversity is one of the main mission statements of all of these schools.</p>

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<p>20more;<br>
the schools and mini are doing you a big favor. You worked hard played by the “stated” rules and basically got cheated. You are wrong thinking that the “best” schools are about academics and hard work. They didn’t want you because you of two reasons: (1)you are the “wrong” race and (2) if you were given an offer and went to another school you would hurt the yield. In mini’s world they could " make up a class of people with 2350s and still have applicants left over". That might be true for 1-2 schools but it is not true for the total number of schools you applied to. Just add up the slots in the freshmen classes and the total number of students in the country that score above a certain level. You and I know in general there is a difference between students that score 2350, 2200 and 2000. The Ivys and the minis have to make up stories to explain to themselves how a student from the “right” race with an 1800 is somehow better than you from the “wrong” race based on some subjective criteria they can use to dismiss your accomplishments. So my question to you is: Do you really want to spend 4 years of your life and 250k getting an “education” and learning about life from that crowd? I think they have already taught you all they have to teach for the price of the 20+ applications.</p>

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<p>there’s no story. The Ivies want diversity. This hurts certain students and helps others. Heck, if it weren’t for a culture that wanted diversity, there would be whole other issues for such a small minority population in the US. You gain/you lose. You weren’t cheated.</p>

<p>The kid born into an incredibly impoverished family, who worked his hardest still had to hold down a full time job and take care of his brothers and sisters while trying to go to school? That kid might have been cheated. That kid shows up at Harvard at a rate far below those priviledged enough to come from backgrounds and families who are behind the kid’s success 110%.</p>

<p>But, no, a kid accepted to UChicago and Vanderbilt and Northwestern was not cheated.</p>

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<p>American realist, post 109: Now that’s a racist post if I ever saw one.</p>

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<p>“Big deal. They could make up an entire class of 2350s, and still have applicants left over. It really isn’t that impressive.”</p>

<p>Can all the Ivies and top private fill their classes with just 3.96+ and 2350+? No way.</p>

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<p>No, and they don’t even WANT to. That’s the point. They don’t WANT a student body made up of the same exact kids.</p>

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<p>^^I suggest we wait until we see admit stats come out before jumping into the conclusion of what Chua has done. As I said before, looking at POIH’s link to Princeton admissions data in 2010, I really don’t see how they could admit more Asians. In Class 2014, Princeton had about 20% Asian Americans and 10% internationals. If we assume half of the internationals were Asians, Asians make up 25% of the campus population. I am against having any minority group take up close to 30% of population if we are to integrate. Would Asians readily come to any campus that has 30% of Africam Americans? I doubt it. I think URMs have an advantage in admissions and Asians have a disadvantage. In that regard, OP is justified to be hurt but not in accusing racism. If colleges are racist, they wouldn’t be accepting ethnic Asians close to 25% of their incoming class. </p>

<p>About SAT 2300 and higher getting accepted at a greater percentage; It may be because they all make the first cut while not all 2100-2290 group make it. If all of 2300 and higher group make the first cut and the admit rate among the selected group is 20 %, their final admit rate will be 20%. If only half of 2100-2290 group make the first cut, their final admit rate will be only 10% even if they are admitted in the same rate as 2300 and higher group in the final round. If this is true scoring very high doesn’t help.</p>

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<p>20more as a parent who has anguished over this I would offer what I have come to understand,</p>

<p>First, the top schools are much less about academic excellence than they were 20-30 years ago. Every year they become more about a social experiment than academic excellence.</p>

<p>Secondly, most of the top schools only have around 4,000 undergraduate students. That means an enrollment class of 1,000. If you don’t fit into one of the following categories:</p>

<p>Athletes - 20%
URM - 50%
Rich Donors - 15%</p>

<p>That leaves only about 15% of the spots or only 150 for everyone else. </p>

<p>So don’t feel bad–do well in your college and focus on getting into one of these schools for graduate school. The institutions you got into do a better job of undergraduate education anyway and, in my opinion, many of the top schools only deserve their reputation from their graduate schools.</p>

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<p>There is too much whining on this thread. So many kids are over in Iraq and Afghanistan getting shot at or losing a limb and people here are feeling sorry that they got into first rate schools and not the Ivy’s. Can we all blame it on race or a sense of entitilement?</p>

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<p>sm74,
you really think that 50% of the population at ivies is made up of URM’s (black, hispanic, native american)?!</p>

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<p>20more, its time to move forward. </p>

<p>If some of the posters on this thread think you don’t have any interests or activities other than those in the classroom just because you didn’t list them, it means they don’t know anything about admissions to some of the other schools you have been admitted to. I was never explicit about my son’s h.s. activities, or awards, because it would have been tantamount to printing his name here. However, because you can’t (or don’t want to) give away too much information, there is no way to have a real debate on the issue of whether or not you and your friends were ‘slighted’ by the Ivy League schools.</p>

<p>Others have made general comments about your good fortunate to be admitted to many other top schools. They are absolutely correct. You will be joining a lot of other brilliant and accomplished kids at whichever one is lucky enough to have you choose to attend. I’m not guessing when I tell you there are many students at those schools who chose not to attend or even apply to Ivy schools. Take a close look at your interests, your goals, your preferences with regard to environment–social, academic, climate–, the costs of the other schools, and make the right choice for you.</p>

<p>The ‘right choice’ does not mean how prestigious the school is in the eyes of your fellow students, or adults who have fallen, hook line and sinker, for the Ivy Mystique. </p>

<p>Congratulations on your accomplishments and your fantastic options.</p>

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<p>This is reasonable, particularly if the first, unprepared 2100 comes in 9th or 10th grade. However, I suspect many if not most of those who scored >2350 on the first or second try were not coached.</p>

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<p>It’s highly likely that the high scorers do other things at a higher level too, because they have time to. Adcoms should be able to spot who’s coached, spent thousands of hours/dollars on getting a higher score.</p>

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<p>Holistically less qualified maybe a better way to put it. If they are truly qualified, then restricting their number is not supportable.</p>

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<p>@sm74, these stats may be accurate for one school about which you have knowledge; they a NOT correct representation of the acceptance pool at American colleges and universities generally.</p>

<p>Athletes - 20%
URM - 50%
Rich Donors - 15%</p>