Strategy for creating a balanced college list?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Working with my daughter on finalizing her list of colleges to apply to. She's looking for a liberal arts college or small undergraduate focused university honors program. Prefers rural or small town setting, minimal or no frat presence/not a big party school, rigorous academics, and a social justice oriented college mission. Would appreciate opportunities for outdoor activities (outing club), good study abroad options, and staying within 10-12 hour drive from home (NH). Likely majors are environmental studies and/or international studies. Her stats are pretty solid - valedictorian of class of 130 kids, National Merit semifinalist (hopefully finalist), 1410 SAT combined CR & M, 760 SATII - English Literature (taking SAT II - Math 2 this week-end), all Honors and/or AP's, strong EC's and leadership. Financial Aid is very important - budget is $15K/year (which includes her $5500 student loan). So, basically she really needs a full tuition scholarship somewhere or to get in to a competitive school that meets 100% demonstrated need. We've run the net price calculator on every school she's considered (that's how Brown and Middlebury didn't make the final cut even though she was very interested in both).
So...... this is her list so far...... </p>

<p>Safeties:
1. University of Minnesota Morris. I know, it's more than 12 hours from NH, but it was the best solid financial safety we could find that fits her criteria. Automatic FT scholarship for NMF. And it actually seems like a great school with great kids.
2. Mount Allison University in Canada. Automatic scholarship based on stats, best undergraduate program in Canada, and tution is way cheaper there.</p>

<p>Reaches:
All very selective I know (basically the top 5 LAC's), but also all within out budget so may be worth a shot to keep at least a couple....
1. Williams
2.Amherst
3. Swarthmore
4. Bowdoin - this one's a for sure
5. Wellesley - she visited Bryn Mawr and Mount Holyoke and didn't like either. Visiting Wellesley next week, so we'll see whether this one's any different....
Originally her list was all top LAC's, very influenced by prestige. We've worked hard to whittle it down and add some viable alternatives.</p>

<p>Likelies (in terms of both acceptance and FA):
1. Haverford
2. Bates - good match, but town not so much
3. Denison - I know... frats. But FA is awesome and they have a really outstanding sustainability program that is very intriguing to her. Town looks super adorable too.
4. Antioch - I know, a total outlier (especially since its not accredited yet), but curiosity got the best of both of us :-) The philosophy/mission is her to a tee.</p>

<p>Likely acceptance, but FA uncertain:
1. Kenyon - little worried about frats/party scene,but otherwise the campus and student body seem ideal for her
2. Dickinson - love for sustainability/environmental studies and study abroad, but have concerns about frats
3. University of Vermont Honors College - a bit on the larger side for her and not a small town/rural area, but a pretty darned cool little city, great environmental studies, and outdoor program top notch.</p>

<p>Mom would like to add, but D really resisting:
1. St. Lawrence University - FT possible with Trustee scholarship and great environmental studies (sustainability semester and adirondack semester), but she has some very strong concerns about party reputation and fears that the student body might not be after the same kind of rigorous environment that she's seeking.
2. Hendrix - She really, really does not want to go to school in the south. Otherwise, it seems like a great fit.
3. University of North Carolina - Asheville: too far south and concerns it might contain a more suitcase college atmosphere</p>

<p>I know that we need to knock off a few of the reach schools (maybe keep just 2?). Think we should keep the 2 safeties for sure. It's the others that we're having a hard time whittling down. The financial aid aspect is definitely prompting us to cast as wide a net as possible, especially since many are competitive scholarships and not quaranteed at all. But, on the other hand, that's a lot of applications!</p>

<p>Any thoughts from those of you who have been through this process before or are going through it now?</p>

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<p>If the possibility of excessive partying and drinking is a concern, note that some of the desired characteristics you list tend to correlate with greater college drinking:</p>

<ul>
<li>Small.</li>
<li>Rural.</li>
<li>Northeast or north central region.</li>
<li>Residential (not commuter).</li>
</ul>

<p>However, lack of fraternities and sororities correlates to lower college drinking, as does being an all-women school. But each school needs to be carefully checked, since (for example) a school with no fraternities and sororities might still be a heavy drinking school.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/niaaacollegematerials/panel01/highrisk_05.aspx”>College Drinking, Changing the Culture;

<p>Denison appears to have a fraternity and sorority dominated social scene – 75% of men and 82% of women join.</p>

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<p>If she really likes UVM I’d have her apply EA. That way if she gets an invitation to the honors college and the FA offer’s good she can jettison the schools lower on her list. If it doesn’t work out she’ll have time to crank out the additional apps over the holiday break.</p>

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<p>I think St. Lawrence is a good add on. My friend’s D went there and was both happy and academically challenged. If you think she will get a big scholarship it is worthy of strong consideration.</p>

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<p>If she goes rural, northeast LAC, she’s going to have a hard time avoiding parties. As a parent, your recourse is to look the Dean of Students or Dean of Admissions in the eye and ask them what kind of drinking goes on on their campus and how many times the last academic year that they or someone in their offices visited the ER to check on an intoxicated student. Please don’t take the word of the tour guide; they’re told how to answer your question. Call the police department, often known as the Office of Public Safety, and ask for records on student incidents of overconsumption to which their officers responded. Schools will not take seriously your and your child’s concerns about dangerous consumption until you confront an admin about it, and yet dangerous consumption threatens the lives of the consumers and disrupts the lives of many people on the campus. Ask about alternative weekend activities that the school actively promotes to combat consumption–not once or twice a semester but several times each weekend. It’s very expensive to fight student drinking, and most admins won’t have the resources to do so or the wherewithal to monitor and re-direct the risk-takers–until parents demonstrate that they will hold the admins responsible for their obligation in combatting the problems. A high school classmate died his freshman year at Dartmouth coming back alone from a frat party. He fell into a snow drift, and when they found him the next morning he was stiff as a board. I’m pretty sure when he went off to Dartmouth his parents had no intention that they were sending him off to die a cliché. Since then, Dartmouth’s reputation as Risk-Taking U has only increased. Nothing changes if nothing changes. </p>

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<p>I think it’s a mistake to assume anything about the EFC calculations if they are close and the school is otherwise a good fit - they are known to be wrong and you’ve eliminated a great school if you don’t apply. Not saying you should go apply if the calculations blow your budget by $20k/yr, but at least talk to the FA office at those schools to have them check your stats. You’ve taken two good fit schools off, it wouldn’t be much work to apply and/or give them a call just to make sure.</p>

<p>If you’re going to Wellesley, also look at Brandeis - might actually work for her given their mission statement. Mount Holyoke was a no, but what about Smith? Connecticut College would fit as well if they had the FA you need and it’s pretty much a safety in terms of admission. How about Vassar or Bard?</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t knock off any of the reach schools. Admission to them is unpredictable; you might knock off the wrong ones. As long as she can do justice to all the applications, I’d keep them on.</p>

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<p>What a great list. You have done your homework. Kudos!</p>

<p>I think that Morris and Mt Allison are good financial safeties. The UMn application takes a few minutes and admission ought to be automatic. I assume that you thought that Truman would be too conservative?</p>

<p>Wellesley is not a reach it’s a match. Haverford is harder to get into and is a reach. It’s not as crazy hard to get into Wellesley because they pre-rejected half the population. Terrific school. </p>

<p>Apply to all of the reaches on your list. Your D is a top student and having like minded studious peers would probably be best. </p>

<p>I’d skip Antioch - they can barely pay their own bills, how are they going to pay yours?</p>

<p>Kenyon doesn’t really seem to have a role on your list
Dickenson gives some nice merit.
Not sure you’ll get good FinAid at Vermont</p>

<p>Forget the one’s D is resisting. The chances of her actually going to any of those are remote. Why waste time and effort. The resistance doesn’t have to be rationale, but it’s her life and it’s October. </p>

<p>So you have a pretty solid balanced list. </p>

<p>Williams
Amherst
Swarthmore
Bowdoin
Haverford
Wellesley
Bates
Denison
Dickinson
UMn-Morris
Mt St Allison</p>

<p>11 schools, Morris is a trivial application. It may be the only one that will let you know before Jan 1 if she applied immediately. </p>

<p>Go for it. </p>

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<p>Middlebury is known to provide as good (if not better) aid than some of the schools on your list. It seems like a perfect fit for her–shame to eliminate it based on a calculator.</p>

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<p>I agree about Middlebury. Apart from the NPC calculation, it sounds like a stellar fit for her. Include it. When you get the real numbers it may not be the financial reach it appears to be.</p>

<p>I also agree about eliminating anything she is resisting. There are plenty of options for mom and D to agree on without having to push.</p>

<p>Some of the schools on your list do look high-risk for the heavy-drinking scene she wants to avoid. (Denison, Dickinson particularly, but also schools like Bates where the partying revolves around sports teams instead of frats. Greek life is not the only “freak” life.) </p>

<p>A lot of rural northeastern schools fall into that pattern. However, it can sometimes be a question of whether that is the dominant social activity or merely part of a more diverse mix of social options. I recommend getting some college guides written by students that have frank details about the social scenes (e.g. Yale Daily News guide, Princeton Review guide, niche dot com) and reading up on which schools will best fit her socially.</p>

<p>Is the 10-12 hours drive home her requirement or yours? Pitzer, Whitman would be great schools with a social justice orientation and strong outdoors programming. She’s resisting south, but maybe west is an option?</p>

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<p>Love this site - such great advice and feedback! </p>

<p>After mulling things over with D tonight, it’s clear that what matters most to her in her search is finding a school where she can spend 4 years with like minded students who love to learn as much as she does. If she could find a group of peers who also share her passion for social justice and environmental issues, all the better! Made me realize that schools known to have a big party scene or dominated by a strong fraternity culture would likely be very poor matches for her. I know she can find her niche anywhere, but given her quiet and introverted personality I’m sure there are certain environments where that would be much easier to achieve. </p>

<p>Agree with those of you who have suggested eliminating the schools she is resisting. It’s not a safety (or even a match) if she can’t see herself there at all. </p>

<p>I also agree that it would be great to put Middlebury back on her list. It was by far her favorite visit. She loved everything about it and could see herself there. I struggle with this one though because, of course, I’d love to encourage her to go after one of her top choices, and I can definitely see her happy there. But I also don’t want her to be sorely disappointed in the spring if the FA package comes in with figures similar to the net price calculator, as that would not be a feasible option for us - it’s $7000 over budget. So, we both agreed she should go for it and hope for the best, but be willing to accept the outcome either way. She’ll regret it if she doesn’t try.</p>

<p>So…
Her top picks are Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Wellesley, Middlebury, Haverford (and possibly Brown).
Morris and Mt. Allison stay as safeties - and she’s cool with both of them.
Denison got nixed - just not the right social scene for her.
Antioch got nixed - was just a whim, but not a good idea.
Williams and Amherst - probably not as we both feel she has enough reaches already.
Still weighing the pros and cons of UVM, Kenyon, Dickinson, and Bates. We’ve got to have some matches in the mix!</p>

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<p>@ClassicRockerDad‌, Truman was on the list for a while, but D wasn’t too keen on the location and after reading reviews sensed that the social scene was dominated by frats.</p>

<p>@DreamSchlDropout‌, the distance thing is D’s requirement. I agree that Whitman is a really great fit, but Ohio to the west, Canada to the north, and Pennsylvania to the south are about as far as she wants to venture. University of Minnesota - Morris was my pick so she would have at least one solid safety (with regard to both admission and finances). Since she did not want to look at any big universities and since our state schools are the most expensive in the country, it was pretty hard trying to find a safety closer to home. </p>

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<p>Agree with above poster that Haverford is more of a reach than Wellesley. I would consider Haverford a low reach for your daughter and Wellesley a high match. Haverford, with its Quaker roots, is a great school for those interested in social justice. </p>

<p>I would think UVM is a safety for your daughter and she will get merit aid.</p>

<p>Although not within the geographic limits you mentioned, for environmental/social justice focus, do consider Whitman, Carleton, Colorado College. Whitman and Colorado College do offer some merit aid and with your daughter’s stats I would think she would get a decent chunk. Also, geographic diversity helps. The NESCAC schools get many applications from New England students. I also have seen NESCAC schools often going for the recruited athletes. Less so at Haverford/Swarthmore/Carleton.</p>

<p>Kenyon can be very generous with merit aid as can Dickinson. </p>

<p>Apply Early Action to UVM and Colorado College, if it is of interest. Dickinson has early action but doesn’t notify until February which I never understood. </p>

<p>I would have her apply to 5-6 reaches if she doesn’t mind the application work. I agree that results can be unpredictable. Based on the experience with my child’s class last year, those students who wound up applying to more schools (despite pressure from the college counselors not to) wound up with the best options. College admissions are just getting too wacky. If your daughter applies early to schools like UVM - or Colorado College - she can always drop a few of her safeties/matches if she so-so about, before January 1st. </p>

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<p>With that many reaches on her list, and by that I mean reach-for-everyone schools, I’d keep all of the match schools on her list. I’d hate to see her in a situation where her only options were Swarthmore or Middlebury without enough FA and one of her ultra safeties. Not that her safeties wouldn’t be good choices, just that I’ve seen kids who went that route (lots of reaches and safeties but few matches) regret that they didn’t have more schools in their sweet spot.</p>

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<p>Agreed, @doschicos‌ and @Sue22‌, that we should have some solid matches in the mix. If we count Wellesley as a high match and keep Kenyon, Dickinson, and Bates, that gives us 5 reaches, 4 matches, and 3 safeties (adding UVM to the safeties). Since the FA aspect is so unpredictable at the schools with merit based aid and the acceptance completely unpredictable at the top LAC’s, it definitely makes sense to keep as many options as possible without her getting overloaded by the whole application process. Cranking out the UVM, Morris, Mt. Allison, and Dickinson apps early (like now) will help in that regard. It’s the dang visits and interviews (on top of senior year stuff) that are killing her. Poor planning on our part…</p>

<p>I think the most frustrating/difficult part of this whole process is finding schools that are matches both in terms of admissions and finances. Not a whole lot of overlap in that regard. </p>

<p>Financially, the schools clearly within our budget are Morris, Mt. Allison, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, and Haverford - 3 reaches and 2 safeties. </p>

<p>The schools slightly over budget (but we could make it happen) are Wellesley and Bates - both matches. </p>

<p>The schools over budget (to the point where it would hurt a lot) based on net price calculator are Brown and Middlebury - but she really wants to give it a try. </p>

<p>Kenyon and Dickinson are wild cards - completely depends on what they offer. </p>

<p>UVM unlikely to be a viable option with regard to FA - pretty big gap even with merit aid, unless they stack scholarships. Even if she got both the Presidential and Green Mountain Scholar (for NMF), we’d still be $8.5K/year above budget. Not a great safety from the FA perspective. </p>

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<p>Families are sometimes surprised by their eventual FA packages even if they’ve run the Net Price calculator so it makes sense to keep the options open, with the understanding that you have a budget you won’t stretch beyond.</p>

<p>It’s also important to pay attention to the makeup of the FA package. Schools with a smaller FA package, but which offer that FA in grants, not loans, may be a better bargain than schools which seem to offer a lot of FA but expect much of that FA to come through loans or work-study. Looking at how you’ve classified the schools it looks like you’ve taken that into account, but I know there will be other families reading this thread as well.</p>

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</p>

<p>This is an excellent list! Great job! Great research! Aside from your Wellesley visit, I would now focus all efforts on applying instead of searching. Time is running out and she needs to prepare high quality applications for those top choices.</p>

<p>I would: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Knock out Morris, Mt. Allison and perhaps UVM as you suggested.</p></li>
<li><p>Start drafting THE one top choice school application - draft, set aside to gestate, review, repeat until it’s perfect. If you can get real comfortable with the NPC, maybe consider ED.</p></li>
<li><p>Drop Kenyon because it’s more of a reach than Bates or Dickinson. Pick one (or do both) and knock out the application(s)</p></li>
<li><p>Rank the other top choices by preference and work on them in order. Put Mid and Brown last because of FA concerns. She may not finish them all. Go for quality apps over quantity.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>@Sue22‌, discovering the differences between FA packages (just through research and net price calculator) has been a real eye opener for us. Other than the automatic full tuition from Morris, it seems that the best FA for our situation (middle class) is from some of the top LAC’s - which are very generous with grant money. Several have the no loan policy, which is very nice. Bowdoin gives a renewable scholarship for NMF on top of grant $. Bates has a very generous policy with regard to outside scholarships which could potentially be very helpful for us as D could possibly receive significant scholarships through husband’s work and our very generous small community. Dickinson is generous in this regard as well. Kenyon offers competitive 1/2 and full tuition merit scholarships to top incoming students. Wellesley appears to be working very hard to help students graduate debt free. </p>

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<p>IMHO, do keep Kenyon on the list. It is no more selective then Bates (probably less selective for a NH resident), and generous with merit aid, as you have stated. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t stress her out about the applications too much. I think you’ll find the applications for the safeties very simple - no or little supplemental essays. </p>

<p>It sounds like you have her list at least 90% done, A few changes over the next month or two are perfectly fine, as long as she doesn’t mind dedicating most of Christmas break to applications. :)</p>

<p>Do, however, schedule interviews and/or visits for the LACs, especially. Some definitely look for ‘demonstrated interest’ from the applicant. Check section C7 of each college’s Common Data Set to get a sense for how important that is for each school. Visits to campus are preferred, but you can schedule alumni interviews as well. Some, like Brown, won’t schedule you until after the application is submitted. Some like Bowdoin and Bates, you should do ahead of time. </p>

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<p>When looking at net price calculator results, it is best to focus on the net price after deducting grants only from the list price. The mix of family contribution, student loans, and student work earnings can vary in colleges’ assumptions, but you and your kid may choose to have a different mix of that for any given net price.</p>