Strong BFA Programs in Not-So-Strong Schools

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
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<p>Very interesting thread today in College Admissions and Search > Parents Forum - Academic fit vs. other factors. The general topic is about the pluses and minuses of choosing a school where the student is highly/overqualified relative to the majority of the student population. </p>

<p>I'm highlighting it here because there were some interesting comments about one particular unidentified school where academically talented bfa students were able to participate in the school's "honors" program for their gen ed/double major requirements, but found that program to be academically unsatisfactory for several reasons. Of course, our very own EmmyBet has something to say about it!</p>

<p>Something to think about as those acceptances come in. Deep breaths, everyone . . .</p>

<p>p.s. I have contacted the poster to see if she'll tell me which school she's talking about - if she does, and gives her permission, I will post the name here. I have my suspicions - I think it may be in Chicago.</p>

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<p>Emmybet’s thoughtful and insightful responses alone are reason enough to go read that thread, though the whole thing is very informative.</p>

<p>This is something that in the frenzy of finding an acting or MT program that will even TAKE you for heaven’s sake, that we have to keep in mind. Our kids not only have to find their artistic fit, they do still need to fit in and find the right mix of academic stretch and social engagement in their other classes too. </p>

<p>Something to consider when making up your school list; we had everything from state flagships, to smaller state schools, to fairly big private schools, to small LAC’s on D’s list. The worrisome part is if at the end of the process, the program admittance and money lead to a school where the rest of the fit isn’t as good. Hopefully if you keep academic fit in mind when making the list that won’t be too much of an issue. Just sort of good fortune that most of the schools we looked at were pretty much a fit for her: she’d definitely want to be in the honors school at the mid sized state schools, but I wasn’t aware of some of the shortfalls they might have until I read that thread. I’m sure some of them are much better though. Being aware of these things makes it possible to investigate before deciding! </p>

<p>Excellent topic. In the end, probably with our kids, an acceptance into a top notch program would compensate for what might be an acceptable even if not exactly perfect academic match. A complete failure at academic match would be something to avoid though, I would think, even at the most desirable BFA imaginable. If academics were so low on a kid’s priority that they didn’t care how lousy the fit, I would say that kid should probably have considered a conservatory anyway.</p>

<p>My D lives and breathes theater but she does want a stimulating general educational experience too. She’s one of those kids that Emmybet describes so brilliantly and accurately that we see a lot of in the performing arts - very smart, very articulate, very deep and creative thinking, wonderful in the social sciences and liberal arts - but math and some sciences can torpedo their GPA and ACT or SAT. That was the case with my daughter. If math came to her as easy as humanities she would have probably been Ivy material. We visited Dartmouth and she loved it and I know had she gotten in, she would have fit in just fine intellectually. She can hold her own in a conversation with anyone. But she has to work too hard for the math.</p>

<p>That’s okay though, one lottery component for admissions was enough to deal with as it was. hah! We went from one under ten percent get accepted category to a different one so never let it be said she shrinks from a challenge!</p>

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<p>We had this exact situation when my daughter was going through this process. Number 2 in her class, perfect scores on SAT and SAT IIs, etc. She’s just a kid who loves to learn but lives to perform. When we looked at some of the schools that had top notch MT programs but less than challenging (for her) academics my husband would say, “This isn’t at the bottom of my list, it didn’t even MAKE my list!” One admitted student trip had a panel of current students and they even said they were disappointed with the general academics but loved the MT program which was an instant rejection for my daughter.</p>

<p>In the end she turned down audition MT programs and colleges that are considered stronger academic programs and chose Northwestern which, for her, is the best compromise of a top-notch MT program with top-notch academics and she’s loving it. It allows her to take upper level math and history classes as a Freshman and Sophomore, not take any languages, and challenge herself every day with acting, singing, dancing, and a whole lot of other MT classes.</p>

<p>There are plenty of options out there, you just need to find the combination that works best for you.</p>

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<p>amtc, Northwestern is an excellent fit for a student like your daughter. </p>

<p>One thing with BFA in Musical Theater programs is that many of them (including some of the most regarded programs) are located within universities that are not that academically selective. The theater world knows how selective these excellent programs are and the fine reputations, even if the college itself is not as well regarded or selective. For someone who wants a BFA in MT who is a very strong student, they have to somewhat reconcile the notion that they are looking for excellent MT programs but that these may not be within the most academically selective colleges and they have to go where the great MT programs are located. It is sort of part of the deal with BFA in MT programs.</p>

<p>That said, my own kid was an excellent student and enjoys coursework outside of MT and preferred a challenging academic environment, even though many of the MT programs are not in colleges that are super selective. But her ideal was to be at a BFA in MT program within an academically selective setting and that was one reason (of many) that NYU/Tisch and secondarily, U of Michigan, were attractive to her. There are a handful of schools such as these where there is a fine MT program along with selective college settings with challenging academics. NYU/Tisch is where she landed and it fit her perfectly and this was one of the reasons why. She only wanted a BFA, however, and only applied to BFA schools.</p>

<p>I have had several advisees who are excellent students who wanted MT but wanted a challenging academic environment as well. One of these students is now in your D’s class at Northwestern, though she had gotten into some BFA programs. NU was a good fit this way for her, like for your D. Another student who is in this year’s cycle, who I believe was very competitive for well known BFA in MT programs, but who also cared a lot about challenging academics, ended up switching over to Early Decision at NU and was accepted and so this again is a good fit for such a student. Last year, I had another student who wanted excellent academics and she mostly applied to BAs, but had two BFAs on the list: NYU/Tisch and UMichigan. While she was accepted to Brown and Stanford, she chose NYU/Tisch as it gave her a great BFA program with challenging academics. There are a few schools where you can get both. Northwestern is one of them. I think NYU/Tisch is another, though it is a BFA, not a BA. There are some others of course. But many BFAs are in schools that are not so selective academically and some also don’t include that much liberal arts in their curriculum either.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the compliments, folks. I do think this is something worth discussing because it is a fact of the particular college search and selection process.</p>

<p>I did search some posts by the mom who was frustrated by the academics at her daughter’s program. I won’t give away too many of her details (you can search her posts yourself if you want) but I will say that her D is a BFA dance student at a school that I’ve never seen come up on the theatre threads. So while her concerns are certainly valid, I don’t think any of us have to worry about unwittingly falling into her exact situation.</p>

<p>There is excellent advice on that thread about how to think about this very personal decision. Not every kid who wants superior academics and artistic training will have the good fortune to be accepted to schools that offer both, and many students and families will be looking carefully at the way they balance out at the schools they are accepted into.</p>

<p>For us, there just weren’t enough BFAs at top academic schools to give my D the luxury of selecting only those for her auditioned list. She does have some very high quality “artsy” BAs on her list, but she hasn’t heard from them yet. At some point we will weigh this very difficult decision. One of the other difficulties is that we have found that the more academically rigorous schools’ BFAs also tend to be more artistically selective as well.</p>

<p>I do have faith that in D’s “second tier academic” or however you want to classify her current BFA acceptance she will be satisfied with their honors college. But we did a lot of talking - to profs, to students, and self-examination - to decide this. And someone else might feel differently.</p>

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<p>I’d love to see this thread return to a discussion of the less-selective academic atmosphere at the excellent and selective theatre programs. Right now it’s reminding me of when people ask on CC, “Should you take an AP class and get a B, or take a regular class and get an A?” and they are told, “You should take an AP class and get an A.” I always find that answer very unhelpful, since of course that’s what people want to do, but sometimes there are more complicated choices than that and things one can’t control.</p>

<p>If academic selectivity turns out to be the biggest concern, a student will base his/her choice on that, perhaps foregoing a BFA or even an intensive training program. My D may yet do that - it will be up to her; I do know that she plans 100% to major in theatre and that all of her “regular” schools have great departments. Some students may be lucky enough to get both wrapped up in one, as I said before, but that is the elusive “getting an A in the AP class” option.</p>

<p>I think a lot of us are worried when academically a school could be a huge disappointment for a kid who is committed to a BFA but does want to enjoy and make use of his/her liberal arts time. Hearing other people’s experiences in this specific situation will help all of us weigh the benefits and disadvantages of those schools. </p>

<p>Please define “less academically selective” by your own criteria; not only is it a relative term from one kid to another, but we don’t want to start a discussion nitpicking academic merits of schools (there’s enough of that already on CC!). Let’s try to talk about how theatre kids decide what they need academically and what has worked and not worked for them, particularly in choosing strength in the arts over other considerations.</p>

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<p>EmmyBet, good point. And to expand on the A or B in AP, what <em>I</em> always “loved” (not) was when teachers tell the kids, “oh don’t worry about getting a C in here, it’s AP and weighted.” Yeah, but there’s those few kids (the kind who blow the curve, bless their intelligent little hearts haha :wink: ) who DO get an A and their A is weighted too so what good does it do.</p>

<p>(my daughter was ‘lucky’ enough to have a history teacher last year and a government teacher this year who probably prepared her well for college: it was the first time she’d ever worked her ass off and been shocked to get a C. I wasn’t real happy about it. These two teachers are notorious for everyone getting C’s, for the valedictorians to usually get their first B. They aren’t bad teachers: they are GREAT teachers and all the good kids hope to get them because they insist on critical thinking and for a lot of them, this is the first time they’ve ever had to really dig deep for answers and not just regurgitate. But it didn’t help her class rank any. sigh.)</p>

<p>Back to your point. Hearing from kids who have been there and done that would be really helpful so I hope we hear from some. Speaking merely from a vantage point of a parent trying to help the kids be proactive, I would think some strategies would be - obviously, the first step would be to investigate the Honors program. Apparently they run the gamut. Possible problems I have heard about Honors Programs is that (though they all talk themselves up so great) the “honors” classes they offer might not have enough time choices to fit into schedules easily - other issues concerning accessibility and availability, stuff like that. Something to investigate before making the choice.</p>

<p>I think defining “less academically selective” is a good point too and perhaps it would help to define what exactly it is your student would want out of a “more academically selective” school and then figure out how to find that at the other schools. I know in my daughter’s case, what she is going to want is not only good professors BUT she wants to be in a classroom where her peers are engaged and participating in discussions. She is SO over being with kids who hate academics and want to get through class without ever having to do anything other than just turn in the minimum amount of work. Obviously, small classes that focus on Socratic discussion are really her bag. (which is why she loved those hard teachers who blew her average! And they tell me she always was an excellent participant in discussions.) So finding out, somehow, how often that’s to be found in a school would be a place for my D to start. </p>

<p>Choice of classes would be another - obviously core is core, but sometimes there’s a more challenging or less challenging option in core requirements. As far as electives, except for studio art classes to help her eventual costuming goals, my D’s electives will probably be all theater all the time as much as she can get away with it, but certainly a theater kid can take whatever electives are available outside of theater classes if they want to. If they end up in a BA they’ll be taking more non theater classes and can do this. If they end up in a BFA then they won’t have to worry about non theater classes much past their core anyway.</p>

<p>Then there’s something my D’s ACT coach told her - though unfortunately a few schools are catching on and restricting this. She told her to sign up for more classes than she plans to take - like 18 hours (I know some kids intend to actually do 18 hours but my daughter is not going to want more than 15 as she’ll be working and she likes her sleep) and then you drop one of them in that early add/drop window, as soon as you see which one is kind of a dog - dull professor, unengaged kids. Some schools now limit the times you can do that, but you probably won’t need to do that after a couple semesters when you can ask the other kids for the scoop on which classes are good and which aren’t.</p>

<p>Then I suppose it would be possible to just thrill some professor who probably goes home and contemplates lying down on a train track after yet another day of teaching 300 13th graders, by approaching hir (him/her) during hir office hours and asking if there’s any way to sort of enrich or supplement the class. I haven’t been in school in a LONG LONG time so I don’t know what sort of result that would yield but perhaps some one can contribute or refine that idea. I don’t mean like “can I have an EXTRA test???” but something meaningful - like in my daughter’s case, perhaps a discussion group with the other kids who can come up with some sort of product (by that I mean anything academic, even just a paper or something) that they can get some kind of recognition for. I dunno. Someone help me out here, I don’t know what’s practical. Maybe for a theater kid they could figure out a way to connect that particular subject with theater and do some independent research project sort of a thing with it. (this would be a REALLY motivated kid to do that - but that is the kind of kid we are talking about it.) This wouldn’t be just adding work for the sake of adding work, but might be something that could yield a nice payoff later - something that resulted in job contacts, looked great on a resume for grad school if that is in the future - or just even got more experience in creating their own life and opportunities using the skills they have, which is what Suzie’s D does.</p>

<p>Is that a good start?</p>

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<p>I think my D’s school will definitely qualify as “less selective academically” under pretty much anyone’s definition. She picked the school based on the theatre program. That was what was most important to her. Here’s what has made it work for her:</p>

<p>First and foremost, the theatre department is all that she wanted and more!! That was top of her list in selecting a school and it continues to be top of her list in what she loves about her school. </p>

<p>She did go the honors program route, but at CCU there are not separate honors classes. Certain classe each semester get the honors tag, but that means that there are a certain number of spots (5 I think) reserved in the class for honors program students and those students do the extra honors coursework. You can also request that a non-honors course be upgraded to honors by working with the professor and petitioning the honors program. She upgraded her fall Principles of Dramatic Analysis class to honors and she was definitely challenged by her professor. This semester it is her Ethics class that is her honors class. For the student who really wants to challenge themselves that option to work with the professor to upgrade a class can really be a good choice.</p>

<p>She also went in with AP and dual enrollment credits. CCU accepted all of them. So she has more flexibility in the CORE courses she takes and has the benefit of being able to take more electives. I know this is a huge plus in her mind. She is hoping to take her math requirement at a community college this summer - just depends on where she ends up for the summer. She will make sure CCU will accept the credit before she does that, but she doesn’t think it will be an issue. That gives her more time to take “electives” in areas like directing, stage management, playwriting, dance, art and who knows what else she will decide she wants to pursue! She plans to go on at some point and get her MFA as she would love to teach at the university level some day and wants a solid background in all aspects of theatre and she can get that at CCU.</p>

<p>She will be the first to tell you that there are kids who are at CCU because it is a “party at the beach” school. That bothered her a lot at first, but now she pretty much ignores the slackers and figures most of them will be gone by the end of freshman year because they forgot the whole go to class concept. And if one of those kids happens to end up in the theatre department - which does happen - they will not last. </p>

<p>Seems like it once again goes back to that question of “fit.” I guess my thought is that there are so many ways to learn and be challenged. So far, my D has found more than enough academic challenges at her less selective school. And the opportunities for personal exploration and growth and fulfillment within the theatre department have been absolutely amazing. No complaints here.</p>

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<p>Thanks, amtm! You always come through. And snapdf - your posts are always so full of humor!</p>

<p>This is great stuff, all about self-awareness, and dealing with pluses and minuses in ways that work for YOU. There are pluses and minuses everywhere - my D1 got into a top school that was her ED first choice, but just ask her if there are kids she hasn’t liked, and profs who haven’t been the greatest, or classes that she wishes she hadn’t taken. That goes for everyone - being too idealistic can be dangerous.</p>

<p>On the other hand, it is possible to be completely mismatched and miserable. Knowing what questions to ask oneself, and then learning what one’s own personal requirements to be satisfied (and ultimately happy) are so important. And hearing these stories really helps.</p>

<p>I think THE most important question my D will be asking herself in a month is exactly what these two girls have asked themselves: the theatre department being great aside, what do I want from my peers, my profs, my classroom experience in my everyday life for four years, and what am I willing to do/give up to have that? </p>

<p>If D is lucky enough to get into a reach or two (auditioned or otherwise), case is closed. But we can’t count on that, and so many factors weigh in. There’s also the question of how maybe being a tad ahead academically might help out when the theatre crunch time arrives. Right now she’s going into production for a community show, which means not a lot of sympathy for HS demands, and I find myself nailbiting a bit about her 3 AP classes for the next 2 weeks, for example. I bet there will be times in theatre when a “too-easy” class might come in MIGHTY handy …</p>

<p>As a detailed comment - it’s interesting comparing snap’s and amtm’s posts. snap’s D likes Socratic round table discussions, but amtm’s D’s honors program seems more based on curriculum enrichment (which of course is perfectly great! Don’t get me wrong!) instead of clustering the honors kids for seminars. Now that’s food for thought: Would snap’s D (or my D) be OK with that kind of honors program? Or would my D’s honors college option, which is round table Great Books classes, end up being preferable to her? From my D’s experience in HS … I’d say she’s the round table type, too. But I will keep this in mind as D looks at her other acceptances, to help her assess fit.</p>

<p>This helps us ask the good questions. Thanks again.</p>

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<p>I can’t answer from the perspective of attending a BFA program that is located in a less selective college. Earlier, I wrote that my D’s “ideal” was to attend a BFA that was also in a more selective school academically (she is strong academically and likes liberal arts, unlike some kids even at her school who don’t really want to do the liberal arts classes). HOWEVER, my D was choosing the BFA program first and foremost, over the college in which it was located. As I wrote, many BFA programs that are very well regarded are located within less academically selective colleges. That is just the way it is. So, she surely would have attended a BFA that was in a college less selective than the one she ended up attending. Most of the BFA colleges on her list, except maybe two of them, were academically “safeties.” I think when picking a BFA program, you are picking the program as a primary selection criteria and then picking the college it is in as a secondary criteria. I say this because for a BFA student, they are spending a huge percentage of their time in the BFA program and also making a commitment to it and so they better like the BFA program. The other aspects of selecting a college are also important, but I think picking the program is the biggest priority. For a BA school, I think one would weigh other selection factors beyond the theater program more heavily. So, while my kid preferred an academically challenging environment, she certainly was willing to attend a strong BFA program within a school that might be an academic safety for her. That said, I think an academically motivated student can still truly thrive in the liberal arts classes in a less selective school because they set high standards for themselves. They will go above and beyond on a paper or project for example, even if they could get by doing less. Perhaps the peers in class may not create as much of a challenging atmosphere but they create their own challenges and learn. If a school has an Honors track, that also helps. I think, EmmyBet, that the Great Books classes at the school your D was accepted to is a way for her to be in class with some really motivated peers. I think a motivated student can make the most of wherever they are planted and thrive.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Soozie. Great points!</p>

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<p>So I just had another thought (which we may get to pursue with more research, depending on what happens in the next few weeks!) - What about the academic character of the kids within the BFA program? I mean, think about it - we all know (on this board, anyway) that even at the “top academic” schools the academic standards for BFA admits can be significantly lower than for the “general population” (subject to certain minimums, of course). That could be a drag for our smarty-pie kids, but in such a case they can get the academic stimulation/challenges they crave in their non-major courses. </p>

<p>On the other hand, we all also know that at many of the [cough] less selective schools the BFA Acting programs are extremely selective. Which could mean that at least the fellow acting students are a pretty smart bunch. (This is where the research comes in.) In such a case, at least they’d have other bright minds to hang out with most of the time, even if the gen ed classes were a bit of a drag. And maybe the older BFA students know which classes/profs to avoid and which ones to pursue.</p>

<p>Those of you who have experience on this matter are invited to chime in.</p>

<p>p.s. How many more days . . . ?</p>

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<p>Wow, that’s a toughie. We’ve certainly thought a lot about it. SO many great arts programs are in plain, mid-level schools, and I’ve asked myself this question up and down and all around.</p>

<p>I think from reading CC, and from talking to kids at auditions and at the schools themselves, we’ve felt pretty confident that kids who can put the work and energy into preparing auditions, spending time and energy and dedication to their “art” (whatever it is), and having good, if not stellar, academic records are usually pretty interesting, interested people. At some schools, the “vibe” didn’t feel quite right for my D - but sometimes that was at quite high-ranked schools, so it didn’t necessarily depend on the selectivity.</p>

<p>But she’s gotten a chance to talk to kids especially at the mid-level schools, to see how they think and what they might be like. It hasn’t been terribly thorough - she doesn’t particularly like to visit classes, although she has observed rehearsals and seen shows. I worry about some of those “one-shot” chances to see what a place is like, since as we all know it can be very hot and cold that way. </p>

<p>The thing we have heard over and over about the mid-level schools is what austinmtmom said - that the arts kids are “different.” First, they tend to have a WAY broader geographical distribution. Second, they tend not to be commuters/suitcase types (which is one of the issues of the mid-level and public schools), both because they’re not local and because they’re busy 7 days a week. And third, when you ask the kids about their peers at these schools, they will so often say, “The regular kids are meh, but the arts kids - that’s a whole other story.” The arts kids (and often kids in other specialized programs at these schools) worked harder to get there, and need to work harder to stay. Their motivation is different.</p>

<p>Intellectual abilities? Well, that depends, anyway. Artsy kids can be great book learners, or awful book learners. One of the things I do like about theatre (D also considered studio art and music) is that it is literary - the kids are more likely to have an interest in reading, in history, in politics, just by definition. But a lot of them spent all of HS doing their artsy stuff, so maybe their potential hasn’t really been tapped, and for sure many of them didn’t care so much about their grades and test scores.</p>

<p>I think it will be a very interesting journey for my D, figuring out in college where she is on the intellectual spectrum, as well as the artistic spectrum, the physical energy spectrum, the dedication spectrum, etc. A good nurturing BFA will help her do all of these things, in my opinion. Today is one week since she got the only auditioned BFA acceptance she has so far. It feels like forever, an emotional year - because that day was such an important moment in her life. </p>

<p>But as Soozie says, she also has some exciting possibilities in the non-auditioned schools. She cannot anticipate what she will do - although I know a couple of them are as high priorities for her as the BFAs. But in the long run she will have to think about what she wants to do MOST of the time in college. All will be good for her future in theatre, but she’s the one who has to live day to day for 4 years at whichever school she picks. Her general feeling is “the more theatre the better,” but other factors will be important in the long run.</p>

<p>We have lots more days. I don’t think any more of her schools are going to release results until the end of March. Although wait - it’s already the 10th? Time sure telescopes during this process!</p>

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<p>I just want to add that some kids think they know what the want at the beginning of this process and then once they are accepted and at their school of choice it is not the college experience they hoped for.</p>

<p>My friend’s neighbor was auditioning a couple of year’s ago for BFA MT programs and was also an excellent student with Ivy acceptances. After the auditions her choices were NYU/Cap 21 and CMU MT. This girl decided on NYU because she also wanted academic challenges. She only stayed at NYU for one year and decided that this was not the program for her. She transferred to an Ivy and is majoring in history.</p>

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<p>Like snapdragonfly’s D, our D was SO over kids who hate academics that she surprised us by deciding that she valued spending 4 years surrounded by the brightest kids possible over all else… although we’d assumed she’d choose the best MT BFA instead. </p>

<p>Her decision was, I’m sure, shaped by having attended an academically so-so high school, plus she has a close friend (not an MT) who got perfect grades and test scores but chose the full-ride in the honors program at our best state school and is incredibly sorry he went that route.</p>

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<p>Such good points. Soozievt, those are really good points to keep in mind when when looking at the various programs, BA vs BFA, and how “strong” the academics are.</p>

<p>I think it’s a very valid point that for a really rigorous BFA program, it might really not be the end of the world to catch a break on some of the academic classes. And a good BFA program is academically rigorous in and of itself. And yes - the arts kids, and especially theater kids, are just a different breed. They just are.</p>

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<p>This is an interesting thread because it presents a true dilemma – whether a bright and talented student could be content with the non-theatre coursework at a less academically rigorous school that happens to have a strong BFA program. It seems to me that the answer would depend on the student and his/her personality, academic interests, and goals as a student and as an actor and would warrant careful considerations of all the pros and cons after trying to obtain as much information as possible from current students on their views of the academic rigor of the school. But, if the BFA program is top-rated, the chances are that the student will elect to attend because the real draw is the acting program and not the academics. I read the posting in the Parents’ Forum on academic fit that was the genesis of this thread. (PS – I skimmed the thread as a whole and could see that there was passionate debate in that thread, but I found some of the posts off-putting and rather surprising for CC – but maybe that is because I generally just read the Theatre and MT threads). With respect to the particular Parents’ Forum post that prompted this thread, I wondered about the option of transferring if a student was truly dissatisfied with the lack of academic rigor at an institution that otherwise had a great acting or MT program. On the other hand, is it worth the effort (all those applications and auditions again) to try to transfer? When he was auditioning last year, my S met several students who wanted to transfer from their BFA programs, including one student who attended what definitely would be considered a more academically selective school. There could be a host of reasons why one BFA program may not be a fit for a particular student and so he or she wants to try a do-over. Just to add to the debate, do you think that a student should enter a BFA program that may be less academically rigorous than other programs with the notion that transferring may be an option, even if that step required starting over again in another program and recognizing that transferring between programs may be difficult because so few transfer students are accepted? </p>

<p>In this thread, there was a posting seeking debate on the academic rigor of students within the BFA program, with the comment that even at the academically top-ranked schools, the academic standards for BFA admits can be “significantly lower” than for the general population. Based on comments I have read in threads over the past two years, I tend to doubt that, in the main, the academic qualifications of BFA admits at academically top ranked schools are “significantly lower” than those students admitted to non-BFA programs. Based on what I have read in other postings, including in the MT forum, prospective BFA applicants have been urged repeatedly to get good grades because BFA programs, particularly at the more academically selective schools, have a two-step acceptance process that the student has to clear – the drama department/audition and the admissions office. While it may be true that a particular program may bend the criteria somewhat for an over-the-top talented student, I believe that this is the exception rather than the rule. Some posters also have noted that the BFA programs at more academically selective schools have fairly low admit rates simply because those schools receive a higher number of applications in light of the fact that many prospective BFA students would prefer to be in a more academically challenging – as well as an artistically challenging – environment. For those colleges that are considered more academically selective and that have BFA programs, if there were two otherwise equally talented applicants, but one of them had higher grades and SAT scores and had taken challenging courses in high school, which student do you think that the program will take? Also, the number of applications at each BFA program generally is increasing each year while the number of available slots remains constant, which means that the BFA programs at any institution can afford to be more selective. Thus, it is very possible that the academic qualifications of BFA students at schools that are considered to be less academically rigorous are superior to those of the general school population. </p>

<p>When searching through CC about two years ago, I do recall a posting regarding a particular college that is very highly ranked academically and that also has a tippy top BFA program (the posting most likely was in the forum for that college) from someone commenting on the fact that the grades and SAT scores for the school overall seemed somewhat lower than equally ranked colleges. Another poster responded that it was because the kids in the arts programs bring down the averages. This college is very well known for its science-related programs and so it probably has quite a number of students in those programs with very high grades and SAT scores. I believe that that comment was quickly refuted by another poster. However, I am willing to bet that the academic credentials of the students in the BFA program nonetheless are quite high, although they may not be in the stratosphere of the math/science/technology majors at this particular university. Assuming that there is a difference between what could be exceedingly high academic credentials of students in the non-arts programs at a particular college with great academics and what could be just very high academic credentials of the arts students at such a college (and I do not know for a fact whether this is the case at such a school), I think that the notion that the BFA admits credentials are “significantly lower” than the general student population may be an overstatement or at a minimum has to be placed in context, particularly given the competitiveness of most BFA programs.</p>

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<p>Excellent points, very interesting discussion.</p>

<p>I’d like to blow our own horn here because we haven’t fallen into the trap that the other thread has of shriveling into another “elite schools are inherently better no matter what” argument. I actually wasn’t as surprised as you were - that is a very typical CC phenomenon on “that” side of the form. We all know here that we’re mixing a very complex set of needs and probabilities, and we can’t just play a rankings game, even if we wanted to. </p>

<p>Nansan, I know we tell our kids here to get the best grades they can. There are schools where academics are everything (the great BAs at competitive schools) and also where they count 50% or more in auditioned admissions. I can’t give you any arguable statistics, but I can say that I believe there is truth that there are also many schools, even highly academic schools, that WILL reduce their academic expectations for arts students. Some of them will actually tell you so up front. We have been to info sessions where the staff say “You can have the highest grades in the world, but this is all about the audition.” I do believe that at some schools, the theatre people can “trump” the academic admissions staff if they want a student.</p>

<p>I also believe that they are looking for talented AND intelligent kids at these schools. I think they just know that how an artsy kid did in their gen ed classes in HS is not going to indicate how dedicated they will be to doing well in a BFA program. But they are thoughtful in their selection, because at any BFA program the work is hard. I don’t know how they do it, but they figure out (or at least guess with reasonable accuracy) who will have the most potential to grow and learn effectively.</p>

<p>So while I don’t really disagree with you, I do think it’s possible for kids with less stellar academic records to make their way into the more academically recognized schools’ BFA programs. I think there are kids who get into those programs and ARE over their heads; I also think there are kids who go to all kinds of BFA (and while we’re at it other) programs and find things aren’t what they expected or what they want. Sometimes we can see this coming, and of course sometimes this lack of fit comes out of left field.</p>

<p>I’m fully prepared for my D to want to make a change, for whatever reason. I know too many college students to believe she’s immune to a do-over, and I think everyone here is preparing for the same possibility. If it’s because the theatre program isn’t right for her - then she’ll have to do what it takes to get where she needs to be. If it’s because the academics aren’t what she wanted after all (too much, too little, wrong level of demand), she’ll have to figure that out, too. </p>

<p>I think the only thing I’d urge her to do, if she asked me today, would be to go to a BFA first and see if it works for her, only because transferring in is so much more difficult than transferring into a BA school, especially if she had gotten in already and had turned it down for the BFA. Plus the fact that you start again at year one is a major financial problem - unless she can bring costs way down, we have no intention of funding more than 4 years of undergrad.</p>

<p>So that’s just a practical preference, not one based on her personal needs or goals, or any other real value. She doesn’t have her favorite BA programs on the table yet, so I have no idea what she’ll ultimately decide. But I will remind her of those issues if she ends up weighing the two, because I’m not sure she truly understands the two pathways in that kind of adult detail.</p>

<p>We’ll try to anticipate as much as we can. It’s such a hard thing to assign “quality” in any college decision. I do want to remark about your referring to theatre programs as “top-rated,” though. Maybe you didn’t mean to use that expression, but for the sake of discussion, I’m going to assume that you did. There has been so much discussion here about “fit,” about how you can’t judge a theatre program on an absolute scale - not by how many of its graduates are famous, not by how famous the faculty is, not by how many shows they put on - but only with a personal sense of getting what you want and being nurtured and trained in a way that works for you. </p>

<p>If I tried to figure out if my D’s “lesser-school” BFA is highly “rated” enough to make it “worth it,” I’d go even more crazy. What matters to us is that she believes it has the curriculum, the resources, and the faculty that she knows can inspire and prepare her to her fullest extent, and that the students in the BFA are people she can respect, learn from and work with enjoyably. She definitely wouldn’t choose a theatre program that seems weak or ill-suited to her, especially within a school that won’t provide her with a satisfying academic experience. But she could feel that way about one of the “top” theatre schools just as with one no one has ever heard of.</p>

<p>I think your points are excellent and worth thinking about, and you clearly cared very much about your S and his options. I hope he’s having a wonderful experience wherever he ended up. I’m just urging you to be careful about talking about using “top school ratings” method in this decision, for people who are reading this at the beginning of their process. I’ve begun to question how much that works in school choice in general, but I’m fully convinced there’s no place for it in theatre program decisions. Our kids’ job is to research, study, ask questions and then think long and hard about how they want to spend 4 years, where they will be satisfied and happy.</p>

<p>I’ll even anticipate comments from people who will say “Yes, but they have to consider their future, and where this school can get them.” People can feel and act however they want; I consider these forums to be invaluable places to share information and perspective. But I personally will not believe that my D HAS to adhere to a single proscribed process to meet her goals in life, and I’ve seen no evidence that this philosophy has any application to a career in theatre. I’ve never believed that, and I know she’d laugh in anyone’s face who told her she had to follow one path, and one path alone.</p>

<p>My husband is a doctor: talk about a proscribed process! But we found that even within pre-med, med school, training, and in his career, there are always boxes people seem to insist you have to fit into, yet somehow those boxes aren’t ever as essential as they’re made out to be. I can’t believe that somehow that is more true in the arts - it sounds counterintuitive to me.</p>

<p>There’s my 2 million cents for today! Let’s keep talking!</p>

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<p>I totally agree with EmmyBet and a few others in this thread. It’s clear just from looking at the stats that are on the Admissions tabs of college websites that BFA acting and MT kids tend to be lower, usually because their commitment to acting trumps academics-- the driven theatre kids tend, as a whole, to be like that. Not too many let their grades flounder, but they only have so many hours in a day, just like top athletes.</p>

<p>That being said, many of the mid-levels to which EB is referring also have honors programs. My d just went to an accepted students day at Adelphi where the BFA students she met there said the theatre program was so intense that the honors program was very difficult to tackle.</p>

<p>As always, it all dependson what your s or d find most important to them and howtheschool feels to him or her? I urge everyone to ave s or dog to accepted students days before deciding wwherethey will be for the next4 years@ $50,000/year…</p>

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<p>My son’s acting coach indicates that nearly ALL BFA programs are becoming more selective academically. As they sort through audition talent, they are looking for talented kids who are willing to work very hard. He says often this is demonstrated by not just your GPA but in the level of coursework you took (even if you got a C in an AP class, you probably worked harder than the student in standard or honors classes).</p>

<p>On a recent visit to Florida State’s theatre program, they were very clear that you will be dropped from your audition appointment if you are not accepted into the larger University program (which has become increasingly more academically competitive in recent years)–there are no “exceptions” for very talented students. On the other hand, when we visited DePaul last year, it seemed that they could have cared less what your grades, test scores or coursework were.</p>