<p>"One day that kid may discover that as romantic as it sounds to have classes all consist of 18 students sitting around a big table talking to a professor... sometimes you end up listening to 17 naive and uneducated Freshman instead of hearing a world class lecturer address a room of 800 people."</p>
<p>Blossom:</p>
<p>This is an excellent point and one that is not brought up too often. Thanks for mentioning it! LAC's are a terrific choice for some, not necessarily for all.</p>
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<p>This is an excellent point and one that is not brought up too often.
Really? I have no idea how you have missed it. It is part of a battle as old as CC itself, the Bigs versus the Littles. And whether you believe your team is the red-headed step-child-underdog or not depends solely on your perspective. ;)</p>
<p>At one of these prestigious, no-merit, only need-based, highly ranked LACs in the NE, my D sat in on a freshmen seminar. While dropping her off, the professor's invitation to me to attend was somehow compelling enough that both my D & I said "yes" for me to also attend the seminar. For the next 90 minutes, the professor led the seminar with challenging insights, & all of the freshmen actively participated. In this seminar, though, the professor didn't allow all of the freshmen to just discuss among themselves---he led, interacted, challenged, stimulated, entertained & otherwise kept all of us fully engaged in the extremely interesting discussion. Because the professor didn't allow the students to flounder in any potential naivete & kept putting out interesting questions, the class discussion was incredible. Completely amazing & incredible educational experience. </p>
<p>This is what we all want for our kids---strong, dynamic professors completely committed to working with students in helping them think in new ways. </p>
<p>Obviously these professors are at LACs & universities. But, due to the smaller classes at some LACs, my D thinks there are higher odds of having this kind of intellectually-stimulating experience at a LAC. So, her quest is for a great LAC (merit $$ would be nice) with small classes & bright kids where there can be a lot of stimulating discussions both in & out of the classroom. </p>
<p>Do you all have any ideas on how our kids can know which schools--big or little--have engaging, intellectually-stimulating professors who want to challenge our kids to think in new ways & are really interested in working with the students?</p>
<p>There are good and bad professors at every U and LAC, even the most elite ones. Generally speaking, there is a greater risk to encounter a professor who sees teaching as a nuisance at a research U than at LAC, since Us tend to hire their faculty more based on their research potential than teaching ability.</p>
<p>I have a child at Swarthmore, and I was amazed to see to what degree the students are involved in the process of hiring of new faculty members.</p>
<p>I am a proponent of LACs mostly because they have proven to be the right choices for both my children, but in all fairness I have to point out that you can also have a spectacularly good TA in a weekly discussion session for a large class whose lecture sessions are taught by a renowned professor--best of both worlds in that instance. And at the very same large school you might also have a miserable experience--no school of either size is totally uniform in teaching style or quality. </p>
<p>Virtually all LACs have small classes and enrollment caps, except for some introductory courses. But even large universities have small classes at the upper levels, so if you are a junior taking a 300-level history or psychology course it doesn't really matter what size the school is. the required freshman English course is probably more of the hallmark.</p>
<p>Some schools give annual teaching awards, and from the language used and the praise given you can tell that classroom teaching and interaction with students are highly valued in an institutional way--that is, part of the underlying values of the school. When you read about schools on their Web sites or visit them you can sometimes get a sense--do students talk about professors that they meet with after class for help or discussion? Are they engaged by classroom activity? Not every subject lends itself at all times to that kind of interaction of course, but you can usually tell from a campus visit how students and faculty interact. You can look at some Web sites and see that teaching awards are given each year and that professors are singled out for praise and promotion after receiving such awards. </p>
<p>As far as which schools really offer this magical mix of great teachers and bright kids who talk about real subjects--hard to say. At any given school a student may be totally involved in a classroom presentation and discussion on a Wednesday afternoon and planning a theme party for residence hall that weekend. Style will vary more than substance I suspect. Consider, however, that just about any LAC in the top 50 or so is the kind of school that newly minted Ph.D.s would be happy to get tenure-track job offers from--and that means good faculty. Proportion, partying style, and personality of intellectually involved students may vary, but there are always some. And even the most widely known schools, large or small, will have their share of the non-intellectually curious as well as the academically stellar.</p>
<p>I guess the key goal would be to find schools that sound and feel right in other (sizze, proximity to cities, and so on) respects and try to visit them this summer. Even with most of the students away, the campus tours will be given by students and you will get at least an initial sense of what some students perceive to be their school's strengths. In my experience, those snapshots are more accurate than you might think (based on later, deeper acquaintance with the schools). You will find at many schools that the students talk with great enthusiasm about meeting professors at a local coffee shop or having dinner with them once a semester, or even babysitting for them. Those are small but meaningful things that suggest an engaged faculty and students comfortable with them.</p>
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So, her quest is for a great LAC (merit $$ would be nice) with small classes & bright kids where there can be a lot of stimulating discussions both in & out of the classroom.
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<p>I think this has been discussed before, too, and it was decided (or, at least I came to the conclusion) that this perfect combination might only be available at Lake Wobegon U, where the kids are not only above average, but where the women are strong and the men are handsome, too. ;)</p>
<p>There are lots of small LACs that offer everything but the merit $$ and a few that also offer the $$. Are any of them uniformly perfect? Probably not. I think mattmom has it right. There are great fits out there for everyone and (fortunately) no one school is a great fit for everyone.</p>
<p>Don't overlook Ursinus, Collegeville, PA; Just north of Philly, very handy for all that goes with living in a big city. Nice merit aid! Also a stone's throw from King of Prussia Mall, which can be a plus or a minus, depending on one's perspecitve! Goucher in Towson, MD is another one that's often overlooked.</p>
<p>Great posts. Helpful comments about how to notice engaged faculty, & to listen to how the students talk about their relationships with their professors. Dinners, coffee, babysitting, after class discussions, etc. Good stuff to listen for. Also to look for teaching awards, etc. Thanks!</p>
<p>Beil1958, how would you describe Ursinus? I think Goucher is out for my D because it's still 2/3 female & she wants more of a balance. </p>
<p>Sounds like we might do a PA tour w Ursinus, Lafayette, & Muehlenberg. I'll have my D do some reading on those schools.</p>
<p>thanks so much for helping us think about how to look at schools, & for some suggestions re them!</p>
<p>Katja - I sent you a PM. Check your box.</p>
<p>Ursinus is known for its strong athletic culture--kind of like a less selective version of Williams, but not quite as isolated (although Collegeville is not New York City).</p>
<p>Williams is not defined by its athletic culture and neither is Ursinus. I have a child at Williams and a dear friend's son is at Ursinus. Neither is into athletics and both young men feel completely integrated into the campus culture.</p>
<p>Didn't mean to suggest that only athletes could be happy at either school--just an observation (impressionistic, like all such observations) about something which is distinctive about both.</p>
<p>Another school you might want to consider is Bates--about 30 minutes from Bowdoin. My son, who absolutely loved Bowdoin, said he would be happy at Bates if he wasn't accepted to Bowdoin. Bates has excellent facilities--new dorms and a brand new dining hall as of last week.</p>
<p>I think Bates is also "SAT-optional", which is an advantage for some students.</p>
<p>Since my D won't be doing a varsity sport at college, I'm pleased that mythmom's experience w Ursinus & Williams is such that non-athletes at both schools feel fully integrated into the campus culture.</p>
<p>Bates is worth looking at as well--Thanks. We're also very interested in these PA schools like Muhlenberg, Ursinus, & Lafayette that we were introduced to by this board. And still thinking about Oberlin, Wooster, Kenyon, Macalester, Carleton, & Grinnell. Thanks for your help in all of this!</p>
<p>nngmm:</p>
<p>"There are good and bad professors at every U and LAC, even the most elite ones."</p>
<p>Are you sure about every LAC? The profs at top LACs usually have to already be known to be good to get an interview.</p>
<p>"Good" and "bad" are not perceived the same by everyone ... therefore, I agree that there are good & bad profs at EVERY school!</p>