Strong or weak application?

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hey everyone! I'm in what you could maybe call a "unique situation" in regards to law school admissions... Could anyone give me some pointers based on the following info?</p>

<p>I am a second year undergraduate, but able to graduate this summer with a French major (I studied abroad in France in high school and went into college with lots of AP credits/ French credits, then took summer classes as well). I am hoping to get into one of the following T14 law schools for Fall 2012 (I know UCLA isn't "technically" T14 but for all practical purposes I'm considering it as such):</p>

<ol>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Georgetown</li>
<li>UChicago</li>
<li>UCLA</li>
</ol>

<p>Yale (yes, I do realize how selective it is and am actually not planning on having a CHANCE of being admitted... but not even trying would be worse than getting denied!), Georgetown, and UChicago are my "long shot" schools while I'm pretty confident I can get into UCLA.</p>

<p>My main problem is... I go to a non-prestigious state school! Don't get me wrong, I obviously only have good things to say about the school I go to, but I was wondering if this will affect admissions decisions at all? To clarify, I go to the University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee. The reason I enrolled here instead of my other choices (UCLA and Wisconsin) is because I received a Full Ride Chancellor's Scholarship to go here, which I suppose could be regarded as prestigious in and of itself. But do you think admissions officers at law schools will look at it as such?</p>

<p>Another factor is the fact that I've been offered an internship this summer with the U.S. State Department at the United States Embassy in Paris. This is obviously a highly competitive, prestigious program. Will law schools look at something like this at all, or is it really just GPA and LSAT that are taken into account?</p>

<p>As for GPA and LSAT, I currently have a 3.5. I am taking the February LSAT so I don't have a score for that yet, although I have used a formula I found on a different thread here and it looks like based on my SAT score I should receive approximately 168 on the LSAT (obviously I know this is a LOOSE approximation and anything could happen with my ACTUAL test results, but I consider myself a good standardized test taker; I got a 2090 on the SAT and a 34 on the ACT without doing any studying whatsoever for either).</p>

<p>So how does this application package look!? Will admissions look favorably or negatively on a younger applicant (I'll barely be 20 come fall 2012)? What about the fact that I graduated so quickly; do you think that will be negatively or positively received? </p>

<p>Thanks for your advice! Cheers, and happy holidays! :)</p>

2

<ol>
<li>Undergrad prestige doesn’t matter</li>
<li>Your softs will make not make a difference (yes, it is just LSAT and GPA)</li>
<li>You really need to prep for the LSAT, it’s the most important part of the application</li>
<li>Graduating early won’t really have a factor on admissions, but it will come in to play during OCI (you may be judged as too young)</li>
<li>Don’t bother applying to Yale with a 3.5</li>
<li> We can’t chance you for any schools until you have an actual LSAT score</li>
<li>lawschoolnumbers.com</li>
</ol>

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<p>You may want to rethink the idea of taking Feb. LSAT to attend Fall 2012, along with what hotdogseller said. Graduating early may make a difference, maybe not, but overall it seems you are rushing into this without doing any research. Read some of the pinned threads at the top, you are making some classic mistakes.</p>

<p>Don’t waste your money applying to Yale.</p>

4

<p>Graduating early will hurt you, especially if try to move directly onto law school. You’ll only have 3 semesters of grades when you apply, unless, you took a full semester’s worth of courses in summer school. Even if you did, it will hurt. </p>

<p>Taking the LSAT in Feb will also hurt you. Doing so makes it unlikely you’ll get into some of the schools on your list. Those schools will already have admitted most of their classes before you take the exam. As a practical matter, admissions to most law schools is rolling. The later in the cycle you apply, the worse your odds.</p>

<p>A few years back, there was a student with a higher gpa and LSAT from UWisc-White Water who was graduating in 2 years. He at least applied early in the cycle. He got shut out at all the top 14. </p>

<p>Your plan is not a good one.</p>

5

<p>Congrats on the government gig, but just know, that while a nice-to-have, its not all that impressive (my son did camped out in an Embassy in a different country and barely lists it on his resume) and top law schools won’t much care. “Prestigious” awards are Fullbrights, for example.</p>

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<p>Wow, thanks for the helpful input everyone! Are you all current or past law students (or parents of law students)? Looking back it looks like I didn’t mention this (not that it really pertains to my original question in any way), but law school isn’t my first choice for what to do next year; I simply want to leave doors open “just in case”. I do eventually hope to go to law school, but next year I’m looking at participating in an English teaching grant program abroad. Even when I DO go to law school, I may not pursue a degree in the United States and opt to complete a law program in France where tuition is at least 30 times cheaper than it is in the States. But, it just so happened that the schools I was interested in here in the U.S. accept the February LSAT, which I still have time to prepare for and take. To put things in perspective, I walked into the ACT without any preparation whatsoever and tested into the 99th percentile nationwide. If I can obtain similar results on the LSAT with a bit of studying and preparation, than there’s no reason why I shouldn’t apply to the above schools even with a less-than-perfect GPA. I mean, even if I’m unsuccessful in my applications, or if I end up going abroad (which is the most likely scenario), it wouldn’t hurt to at least apply to schools and have options for what to do next year, right?</p>

<p>And bluebayou, did your son participate in the State Department internship program as well? If so, then congrats to him! For what it’s worth, that’s probably something he should be putting on resum</p>

7

<p>Sigh. </p>

<p>Somehow we aren’t getting through to you. If you have time to study and take the Feb LSAT, do so. Do NOT apply to law school for fall 2012 though. </p>

<ol>
<li>It’s really dumb to go to law school because you aren’t sure what else you want to do.</li>
</ol>

<p>2.Your message said you would start law school in the fall of 2012. Yes, the law schools on your list accept February LSATs. However, they also admit students on a rolling basis. By the time you get your scores, there will be very few places left.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Have you even registered with the LSDAS? Ordered transcripts? Asked for prof recs? If you haven’t already done that, it’s even less likely that you will get into law school for the fall of 2012. </p></li>
<li><p>Look at <a href=“Search for Law Schools – LSAC Official Guide | The Law School Admission Council”>Search for Law Schools – LSAC Official Guide | The Law School Admission Council;
</ol>

<p>When I put in 3.50 and 168, you had roughly a 15% chance of getting into UCLA. If you apply in February, it’s extremely unlikely that you will get in.</p>

<ol>
<li>Where do you intend to practice law? If you plan to practice in France, fine. But French and American law are two different animals and studying in France isn’t going to qualify you to practice law in the US.</li>
</ol>

8

<p>Thanks for your advice jonri, however, with all due respect I’m not really concerned with your opinion on whether I SHOULD or should NOT go to law school. That is not the question at hand, so there’s no “getting through” that needs to be done at all here. As stated in my previous post, I don’t think it could hurt to keep law school as an “option” for the 2012-2013 academic year. Even though I intend to pursue legal studies later on in life rather than immediately starting next year, keeping doors open is what applying for next year would be all about. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>There are a myriad of perfectly reasonable motives that would inspire one to go to law school. Just because I’m not hashing mine out explicitly here doesn’t mean I don’t have any.</p></li>
<li><p>Indeed, I AM applying for admissions in Fall 2012, as originally stated in my first post and reaffirmed in my second post. As I also stated in my second post, if I don’t get in, I don’t get in! No harm done because I have lots of other options for what to do after my undergrad, some of which even come above immediately enrolling in law school.</p></li>
<li><p>I am well aware of the necessary steps I need to take for law school admissions, thank you very much. Some are already taken care of, some are in progress.</p></li>
<li><p>I haven’t yet taken the LSAT, so while the 168 I gave was an approximated score based on my SAT results, it can’t be concretely used to make any sort of deduction whatsoever. My actual LSAT score may be significantly lower or higher than that figure.</p></li>
<li><p>Again, my personal aspirations are not really of your concern. Although I can say this: If you think that someone who has studied and lived in both France and the United States is unaware of the differences in both legal systems and educational policies between these two nations, than you are sorely mistaken.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thank you for taking the time to participate in this thread, however, I would appreciate it if you didn’t contribute any more off-topic remarks in the future, especially condescending ones like “Your plan is a bad one.” and “Sigh.” Answering someone’s questions with concrete data or personal experience (your story about the UW-Whitewater student was a bit iffy; the only pretext you gave was “there was a student…”, without stating your personal connection to said student to validate the experience you told about) is helpful. Making opinionated statements is not.</p>

<p>Cheers!</p>

9

<p>If you don’t like Jonri’s honest reply then you may be out of luck. Pretty unlikely you would get anyone to disagree with his/her advice. If you don’t really want advice, but rather to just have someone cheer you on in whatever you have already decided to do might I suggest a parent or SO?</p>

10

<p>As I previously stated, I sincerely appreciate valuable personal experience and objective data, analysis, or facts pertaining to the questions I put forth in this thread (see previous replies for great examples of such), even if they are contrary to my goals. Personal opinions of anonymous strangers on a forum, however, are of no value to me, or really to anyone for that matter. If personal opinions ARE going to be expressed, online posting etiquette (as well as general social custom) dictates that they should be put forth in a less off-putting manner (read, for instance, zoedoggie’s post).</p>

<p>YOU on the other hand, parentofpeople, are committing the ultimate faux pas of contributing absolutely NOTHING worthwhile to the discussion all while making ill-mannered remarks of a personal nature. Please DO NOT post in this thread if you do not have something of value to contribute to the discussion (which, based on your previous post, you clearly do not).</p>

<p>Thanks to all those who DO have valuable insight on my questions, whether it affirms OR discourages my desired actions!</p>

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<p>In short, you will need 170+ to get into a T14 law school given that you have a 3.5 GPA and graduating early (which is a disadvantage), unless you are of black or hispanic ethnic background.</p>

<p>Also, UCLA cares a lot about GPA and they tend to accept only 3.6-3.7+ GPA candidates regardless of LSAT. You may be out of luck with UCLA.</p>

<p>Don’t project your LSAT score based on SAT. LSAT is much more difficult, not to mention these two exams test totally different abilities. SAT is a test you can just walk into without prep and do well. LSAT isn’t like that.</p>

<p>Lastly, no one can actually chance your application without your actual LSAT score.</p>

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<p>Thanks lazykid! Good to know. Not necessarily asking about “chancing” my admissions, was mostly wondering how the early graduation and outside experience would play into things. GPA went up to a 3.6 after last semester, which I guess is a good thing all things considered haha! I’m currently in the process of preparing for the LSAT; since we don’t start classes again until January 24th, I’m hoping that I’ll be able to dedicate a good chunk of time everyday to test prep and be well prepared come February!</p>

<p>As a side note, before doing further research, I initially was using the Boston College Law Locator as my guide for admissions “chancing”. How accurate do you all find this to be?</p>

<p>[Boston</a> College Law Locator Matches - Boston College](<a href=“http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/offices/careers/gradschool/law/lawlocator/match.html#C]Boston”>http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/offices/careers/gradschool/law/lawlocator/match.html#C)</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>…is impossible. No LS is gonna publicly state that early graduates are at a disadvantage. (It would be non-PC.)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Anecdotes and opinions is all you will be able to receive in response to your queries since there is no “concrete data” on your questions. Moreover, you asked ‘how [your] application looked?’ What do you expect other than opinions? :)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>CC is an open forum, and anyone can post anything relevant or not. There are no rules that give you ‘ownership’ of a thread with authority to dictate what gets posted. See the Terms of Service.</p>

<p>btw: there is plenty of concrete data showing that late appliers are not very successful – which is Jonri’s point.</p>

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<p>Hi again bluebayou:</p>

<p>Confused as to why you didn’t answer the question I asked you in my previous post about your son’s experience? I’m really curious to see if he participated in the same program as I am! If not, we may have more to chat about :)</p>

<p>You are absolutely correct though, this is an open space for open discussion, and I have no ability to restrict what kinds of postings occur in this thread. Hence why I politely REQUESTED, rather than DEMANDED, that posts be kept both cordial and on topic. There’s no need to rabble rouse amongst ourselves, we all have better things to do on the other side of the keyboard!</p>

<p>On that note, I would really appreciate it if you would refrain from contributing further posts that have nothing to do with the thread and just waste time with petty arguments. I’m not here to argue, but rather to collect information and perhaps have some friendly, non confrontational conversation along the way.</p>

<p>Happy posting! Would love to pick your brain about your son’s experience with the State Department if he did indeed participate in the same internship program as I am about to!</p>

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<p>I would suggest that you go straight to the source:</p>

<p><a href=“Search for Law Schools – LSAC Official Guide | The Law School Admission Council”>Search for Law Schools – LSAC Official Guide | The Law School Admission Council;

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<p>

</p>

<p>My bad. I didn’t realize when you posted on an anonymous forum you were only looking for responses from your personal friends who might be on this site too.</p>

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<p>After this, I won’t reply to any of your posts. I do feel the need to defend myself from your attack. </p>

<p>Saying that it is a bad plan to take the LSAT in Feb and apply to law school for the following fall is not “condescending.” It is merely truthful. Go look at a few books on admissions, e.g., Montauk & Klein, if you want to read the same thing in print. </p>

<p>My “getting through to you” comment was NOT about whether you should/should not go to law school.It was about the fact that you don’t seem to grasp that your chances of being admitted are drastically reduced when you apply that late. I know I’m repeating myself, but as a practical matter, most law schools use rolling admissions.So by Feb 1, most of the places are taken. Most of the applicants who are admitted that late are URMs, veterans, have other hooks and/or have stats in the upper ranges of the applicant pool. (The law schools will be trying to raise their 75th% for ranking purposes.) </p>

<p>The fact that you are still asking whether the Boston College law school locator is valid suggests to me that you still don’t grasp that fact. Even if it were completely up to date–it isn’t–it doesn’t apply to someone who is applying after Feb. 1. </p>

<p>You also don’t seem to grasp that applying late to law school and getting rejected does have a down side. </p>

<p>Again, I won’t answer any of your future posts since you don’t want opinions from anonymous strangers on a message board.</p>

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<p>Sorry to hear that you felt attacked Jonri. Thanks for your tips about rolling admissions; remember, applying next year for law school is simply an option in case things don’t work out with other grant programs I’m pursuing. That being said, I do plan on whole-heartedly applying to law school a few years in the future, at which point I will be applying as early as possible (resources like the Boston Law Locator will no doubt be more applicable in this instance). Even with drastically reduced chances of admission, at least APPLYING to law schools next year can’t HURT per se. In addition to the T14 schools listed, I will probably have a more diversified application portfolio including state schools and less prestigious private schools.</p>

<p>So all in all, thanks for your advice. I hope you took MY advice to YOU to heart for your future posts on this forum; there’s no need to make off-putting statements like “Your plan is a bad one.” or “It’s dumb to go to law school just because you don’t know what else to do.” You can get your point across in a more friendly, tasteful way!</p>

<p>Cheers.</p>

19

<p>

</p>

<p>Actually, it may in fact hurt you. By the time you take the February exam, you will not get scores until March, which at that time, you will debate whether or not it will be worth it to send these scores. Even if you should submit your application on the day that you get your scores in March, it will be April, by the time the law schools have all of your stuff from the LSAC. A couple of weeks before you go to committee, then you are talking about May before you get a response. At the end of the day a 3.5 GPA with 2 years of college is not going to trump a 3.5 GPA of a student who went to school 4 years, has an honors thesis and has taken courses with more depth and breadth.</p>

<p>By that time, the class is pretty full, you have missed ASW and prospective students are making 2nd deposits. Unless you truly have something outstanding in your apps, unless your apps place you at the top of the pool, the best you can hope is to sweat out the summer in wait list hell. If you are picked up of a wait list you are looking for any type of scholarship aid, should you get picked up late in the game, your financial aid package will be all loans. Should you not be picked up, when you apply again, the schools will ask if you have previously applied and the outcome. Since they hold applications on file for 2 years, unless you have something truly outstanding to add to your application, do not look for a different outcome.</p>

<p>Don’t be so quick to poo-poo the advice of those who have posted because they are have many years as practicing attorneys in big law (which is probably where you want to go) and/or are parents who have kids already attending top law schools (HYS), which is where you are trying to be. </p>

<p>They are simply telling you the facts. A 168, will not be enough to get you into Georgetown, unless you are considering going part time (as they are known to be high LSAT whores). Even then, your age and 2 years of college will hurt you when getting into a part time program. </p>

<p>I remember going to the law school fair and speaking with the UChicago admissions rep when my D was considering finishing early. Your age will hurt you in the admissions process. The best that you can walk away with on the off chance that you are admitted is being asked to defer your admission for a year in order to work or do something constructive.</p>

<p>If you can make it through the admissions process, you will definitely feel the backlash at the end of 1L when you are going through the OCI process for 2L summer internships (these determine if you will get a firm job at graduation). By this time, you will be 21 applying for a job where the majority of the pool will have work experience over you and 4 years of college.</p>

<p>If money is not an issue, my recommendation would be to wait. Delay graduating, take a couple of classes in the hopes of raising your GPA.</p>

<p>Since there are already a number of threads on the topic, I will direct you there</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/699679-graduating-early.html?highlight=early#post1062480930[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/699679-graduating-early.html?highlight=early#post1062480930&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/464008-what-best.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/464008-what-best.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/462256-graduating-3-years-vs-possible-higher-gpa.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/462256-graduating-3-years-vs-possible-higher-gpa.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/480362-let-us-all-bow-our-heads.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/480362-let-us-all-bow-our-heads.html&lt;/a&gt; (take note to post # 11)</p>

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<p>One think is correct blackcap, you have the perfect personality for the legal profession. I hope it goes well for you. (and no, I don’t normally post details of my kid’s experiences. But just know that the internship, while valuable to you, will not be viewed by LS’s as prestigious. It ain’t that competitive.)</p>