<p>Hi everyone! I am new the board and have been reading all of your helpful posts about this "wonderful process".</p>
<p>Here is my dilemma: My dd is a senior who has really waffled about going to school right away or not, so here we are in Jan and she has only applied to 2 schools, one behind our back because it is in TX and we are in NC.</p>
<p>Anyway, that said, we really would like her to stay near home, or at least driving distance within the state, she is determined to go "far away" and when asked why she has given me different reasons, most of which don't "wash", if you know what I mean.</p>
<p>We talked about the financial situation with her and told her what we were really able/willing to pay, including a discussion last night that, if she were to choose school A or B (in state) that we would be able to pay the WHOLE thing and not even have her have to work so she could fully concentrate on college. She however is under the impression that she wants to go out of state so badly that she would be willing to go $80,000 in debt, $20,000 per year at this school (which is NOT even a school that many have even heard of, SAT min starts off at 1000, which my dd made like a 1700), and she just does not want to listen to reason. </p>
<p>We have pleaded with her about not going into debt, tho at 17 do you really get the whole debt aspect, she definitely doesn't. My husband and I have talked about really limiting it with no choice vs letting her go and fall totally flat with the debt situation? I just feel like, in good conscious, I hate to have her do that to herself..not only that but she is going to want to go to grad school afterwards because she thinks she wants to major in psych to become a psychologist, so even more $$$ at that point. </p>
<p>How can I get her to listen to reason without it being WW3 (which it was pretty close to that in our house last night <grin>)</grin></p>
<p>Easy. She can't take out a big loan without a co-signer. You don't co-sign.</p>
<p>Also have her start investigating loan possibilities now so she learns the facts, and becomes more realistic about her options.</p>
<p>She'll get the point more easily if she learns the facts about loans via her own investigation by her talking to bank officers, using Google to find out loan info, etc. If you tell her, she'll probably either just become more hostile or not believe you.</p>
<p>You are being completely generous in offering to pay for in state school and should not feel guilty about not wanting to pay for the more expensive option. And you are absolutely right that she may not understand the long term effects of debt. Is there any way you can get another adult to talk to her - relative or guidance counselor? Or get her to try the in-state school for a year and then revisit the issue?</p>
<p>Easy. She can't take out a big loan without a co-signer. You don't co-sign.</p>
<p>Also have her start investigating loan possibilities now so she learns the facts, and becomes more realistic about her options.</p>
<p>She'll get the point more easily if she learns the facts about loans via her own investigation by her talking to bank officers, using Google to find out loan info, etc. If you tell her, she'll probably either just become more hostile or not believe you.</p>
<p>And if out of anger, she threatens not to go to college at all, let her know that she'd need to then work fulltime to support herself, and if she continues to live at home, would be expected to pay rent and follow the house rules.</p>
<p>How will your daughter get $80,000 in loans without you cosigning them? I don't think anyone is going to give a teenager $20,000 in loans with only her signature. Of course, if you cosign, you could end up paying the entire debt. You aren't under any obligation to co sign a loan. You've done the right thing about having an honest talk about how much you are willing/able to pay. Would you let her go out of state if the cost of the school was within the limits you've set? Is the other school she's applied to in state? Have you looked at online calculators for how much her repayments would be if she took out the loans and shared this information with her?</p>
<p>Maybe she isn't ready for college yet. Stay open to the idea of a gap year that might help her become more focused and realistic. $80,000 in debt is horrendous. Don't even consider letting her go down that road.</p>
<p>I guess I'm the softy mom here. I would suggest that you help her investigate some more schools that she could be excited to attend that would be comparable in cost to your suggested school.
My daughter definitely did not want to stay in our state so I did a lot of research to find schools that would offer her merit aid or that were comparable in price to our state flagship. She fell in love with one and has been offered the Dean's scholarship so we will both be happy.
Good luck!</p>
<p>Unfortunately, kids will go down the roads they choose. I would consider asking her to take a gap year, go to TX and work for that year to get in state residency and then go to college, if TX is really where she wants to be. One of my D's friends did just that when she wanted to go to school in NY (we live in CA).</p>
<p>Since it looks like a power struggle, maybe the easiest thing to do, as Northstarmom suggests, is to say, "All right. But we won't co-sign loans. You want them, you find them, you apply for them." And then don't talk about it anymore unless she asks you about something. Then answer the question and move on.</p>
<p>Once there's no battle, she may back down much more quickly on her own. (She may be saying things that she doesn't really believe in the heat of battle.)</p>
<p>Remember the lyrics from a song in The Fantastiks:
"Why did the kids put beans in their ears?
No one can hear with beans in their ears.
After a while the reason appears:
They did it 'cause we said No."</p>
<p>Good luck! Just keep the communication going. We're facing the opposite! Our D doesn't want to go very far away from home and she has been offered some amazing opportunities at amazing schools that we're willing to pay for. They seem to figure things out.</p>
<p>I'm not a parent, but she needs to apply to more than one school. There are still colleges accepting applications. Some may not be top-tier schools but she needs to expand her options. I agree with the state universities. College admissions today is more competitive than when I applied for college in 2002. She can always transfer to another school in her sophomore year.</p>
<p>I think your daughter showed a lot of initiative in applying to an out of state college "behind your back." Teenage girls can be kind of willful at times. Somehow I doubt that pressuring her to attend a nearby college will end well. Maybe you could work together to try to find an out of state college which would be financially more feasible? Have you looked into the financial aid options? </p>
<p>And finally, the awkward question: are you sure you're not using the financial issue as a means of pushing the real one - the fact that you don't want her to go too far away? Because even if her reasons don't "wash" to you, they do to me. And I haven't even heard them :) Sometimes kids just need to get away from where they grew up.</p>
<p><em>sigh</em> People in this forum always say that if a student wants to make a college-related choice that the parent doesn't approve of (like choice of college or choice of major), they should be willing to pay for it themselves. </p>
<p>Now, here, we have an example of a student who is willing to pay for it herself so that she can have the experience that SHE wants (since after all, she is the one who will be attending this college), and people are still trying to find ways to thwart her, to deny her the opportunity to make her own college decision. And nobody, apparently, thinks it's unreasonable to insist that your kid stay close to you for college...no, they take the side of the parent, and commiserate about how generous the parent's offer is, when the parent's attempt to use the power of the purse to manipulate the child is failing. Note that the parent, in this case, hasn't said that she can't AFFORD an out-of-state college, just that she wants the daughter to stay close by, and therefore she will only pay for in-state.</p>
<p>I mean, I understand that people are concerned about debt, and some have had very good advice about making sure that she understands the reality of loans. I also think it would be great if the parent sat down with her and they investigated other school options that she might enjoy that would be cheaper. But if, after having learned about the consequences of debt, and having researched her options, she is willing to deal with the finances herself to have the power to make her own decision, I say more power to her. I might suggest that she take a gap year, if she was considering it anyway, and use it to work full-time and save up some money, so that she will not have to take out as much loan money.</p>
<p>EDIT: Whoops, cross-posted with kludge, who said a lot of what I was getting at, but more kindly.</p>
<p>What's the merit and FA options at the TX school? Have you used the EFC calculators available online (can someone help with a link?) to see if you'd be available for financial aid? </p>
<p>As another NC parent whose first D had no desire to stay in NC, she was able to get a nice merit scholarship which made her out-of-state public U NOT ridiculously more money than UNC. She's ecstatic at her choice (starting 2nd semester now), and although I miss her terribly, I do agree that for her, it was the perfect choice. She's wonderfully independent, she has established a network of friends much stronger/diverse than she had in high school, and she's made some wonderful choices, even without her mother telling her daily what she should do! D2 is already looking to follow her sister's footsteps out of NC. Go figure.</p>
<p>At 17, they aren't always able to articulate all their "reasons", but I too have found that the more I fight, the less they listen. Besides, life is much more pleasant with less tension around....</p>
<p>The parental pursestrings are a huge weapon in the arsenal of parenthood. We use it all the time at the fencershouse. </p>
<p>And, I agree with those other posters above: if she really REALLY wants to go to this TX school, let her find the loans, etc. and sign for them herself or get her own ding-dang co-signer (good luck with that one. Alert the grandparents!). </p>
<p>It seems like DD just wants to feel she is independent and perhaps a school-mate or two are going to this school or have suggested it to her. Help her to find a similar school w/in some geographical boundaries of which you approve. If you are willing for her to go 200 miles instate to a private school, what difference will it make if she goes 200 miles OOS to a similar private? Maybe she just wants you to mail her packages in TN or VA - maybe she just wants to FEEL like she's breaking away. Not the most mature attitude but kids aren't mature. </p>
<p>Remember that Dumbo movie where the elephant can fly if he has the magic feather? Find out what your D's magic feather is, and go from there. "A little bit of 'chology... Psychology."</p>
<p>Thank you so much for all of the answers so quickly, I appreciate it.</p>
<p>I didn't realize I didn't say that NO we can't afford the out of state tuition, which is double what the in-state tuition is, I think I just figured in a way it went without saying LOL :) (as you all are very wise about in state vs out of state)</p>
<p>You know, I've thought a lot about the "do we really want her close to home" spiel, and it's not like we spend every waking moment together and, like I told her, the schools in state we've looked at may as well be a continent away, I'm certainly not driving to downtown Charlotte or Chapel Hill very often (it's crazy LOL)!</p>
<p>I appreciate what a few posters said about the daughter making her own decisions, but, at 17, do you REALLY know what debt is, I know I really didn't get it, and I know what you are saying, but down the road do you want to be 21 years old and $80,000 in debt just to say you were independent? I dunno :::sigh::: </p>
<p>Thank you guys for your wonderful quick posts!</p>
<p>
[quote]
The parental pursestrings are a huge weapon in the arsenal of parenthood.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then parents should be utterly unsurprised when their college-age kids are willing to go into debt to escape this form of controlling behavior. Or when their relationship deteriorates, even to the extent that their college-age kids end up not speaking to them for years because they tried to use that power of the purse to manipulate the kid's choice of major, activities, or friends (I've seen that one happen).</p>
<p>EDIT: Cross-posted with the OP. OP, if the issue is cost, perhaps you can work out a way where your will pay for part of the cost (perhaps the amount that you would have paid had she gone in-state) and your daughter will pay for part? This might help allow her to make her own college decision without taking on that level of debt. Perhaps she will get financial aid that will further reduce the burden. And if she is as overqualified for the school as you suggested, she might be able to get merit aid.</p>
<p>I don't think it's a bad thing to get out and go to college away from home. Most teenagers are dying to see a little more of what's out there.</p>
<p>I suspect the reason she didn't apply to more schools is that she was feeling the pressure of "stay near home," which clearly didn't appeal to her. I suggest you sit down and have an honest conversation. You need to be straight up and honest about what you can afford. You need to listen without judging ("that doesn't wash" is just another way of saying "you're still a child and don't know anything") and help her find colleges she will be excited about. Many, many schools offer excellent financial aid that will bring tuition close to in state colleges.</p>
<p>You and your daughter are at a crossroads. You can work with her by treating her like a young adult who has input into a major life decision, or you can treat her as a child and try to force your hand. The path you choose will set the tone for your relationship with your daughter as an adult.</p>
<p>A friend of mine took out $70,000 in loans 20 years ago to get s PsyD from a professional school of psychology. She is nowhere near paying them off and now she faces what might be a permanent disability.</p>
<p>Some level of debt makes sense in certain situations. I can't think of any situation where I would think $80,000 in debt would make sense for an undergrad degree.</p>
<p>I don't like the idea of parents using $$ to control their kids, as it sounds like the OP might also be doing here. The more you try to do that, the farther away they'll want to go. Setting limits on what one can or can't afford I do believe is reasonable.</p>
<p>I think OP's D is showing some signs of not being ready for college yet. Friends of mine ignored their D's hints that she might not be quite ready for coillege and she had such a rough first semester she had to take a medical leave and is now sitting at home with no good plan and possibly feeling bad about her failure to launch. And her parents feel bad that they didn't take the "warning signs" seriously.</p>