Student Body

Colleges and Universities A-Z Miami University - Ohio
21

<p>Oh puhleez, get a sense of humor would you? Speaking strictly for myself, I am not taking joy (petty or otherwise) in the problems of college kids. The headline was funny in the context of this debate and the article actually could have supported either side of the argument so I am not even sure that dad<em>of</em>two is on the same side as me.</p>

<p>The one making a case here is YOU and I don't think it is the case you intended to make.</p>

<p>As for how people portray themselves, rarely have I come across such a judgemental person on these boards as you. If you bother to read what I posted, I did NOT criticize, attack or make any assumptions about you, your school(which by the way I DO know a lot about) or anyone else. I simply asked a couple questions (which you have YET to answer) so that I could determine whether or not I thought your OPINION had any credibility strictly for ME. </p>

<p>Seems to me you are living in some alternate universe if you think you could come on a thread full of Miami alumni, current students(many of whom are in the honors program right now) and most importantly parents of brand new students, make a negative vast generalization and expect no passionate responses from those people. All I can do is laugh.</p>

<p>I dare you to go over on the OSU thread and post EXACTLY what you have posted here swaping OSU for Miami and visaversa and see what happens there.</p>

<p>Thank you too for reaffirming my opinions of OSU. Looks like we performed a service to each other.</p>

22

<p>Oh and sh60614-
Have you ever heard of the "Monkeys"? They had a very popular song in the early seventies with a line in it "...she's a daydream believer..." that typifies my D, and since I am her mom...username mystery solved.</p>

<p>"judging by her id is probably one of these in-your-face christians"</p>

<p>Incidently, would you enlighten me on what defines this for you? I wouldn't want to make any assumptions about what you mean by this.</p>

23

<p>Then, my apologies for the mistake on your user id. I jumped to conclusions. That being said, the link to the mental health article had zero to do with this debate and everything to do with taking a cheap shot at Ohio State.</p>

<p>As for your two orignal questions, I didn't answer them because other people already did for me before I logged back in. I do go to Ohio State, and my numbers on the socioeconomic background of Miami students are valid and come from a Miami presentation available on the web and used to sell the tuition scheme.</p>

<p>As for binx's assertion that I'm bitter about money because I'm majoring in social work, there's also an assumption way off the mark. I'm majoring in history and Chinese and looking at joint International Studies-Law programs for graduate school; although I do have a great deal of respect for someone who might actually view a college education as a means to bettering society more than simply their bank account. </p>

<p>I don't have a problem with money. I grew up comfortably and hold no grudge against others with a similar background. I just didn't want to go to a school where one socioeconomic, racial and political viewpoint dominates the entire student body, and it does dominate the student body at Miami.</p>

<p>Actually read that link that I posted to the Miami survey. Miami's own professors describe it as a place where "suburban, preppy repbulicans end up." The surveyors go into detail of the indifference, if not outright hostility, on the part of Miami's students towards the school's worthy diversity initiatives. If that appeals to someone, then Miami is probably a good fit, but don't try and persuade students to apply to Miami by saying that the general perception among Ohioans, all of the guides and even the opinions of Miami's own faculty are all mistaken.</p>

<p>As for admissions standards, the proof is in the numbers. While in the 60s and 70s, Ohio State suffered through a twenty year period with a governor and a former Miami president as Board of Regents Chancellor forcibly holding it back at the undergraduate level. Those policies are long gone, and the historical hierarchy in Ohio's public system of higher education has firmly been reasserted. A rough glance at the 2007 freshman classes tells me that about 20% of Miami's class would not have been accepted to Ohio State, which makes that video all the more ridiculous to the point of self-parody.</p>

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<p>sh60614 - You misread my sarcasm. I was reading in your comments some bitterness about Miami students and purposely made some exaggerated, sarcastic claims to try to make a point. Sorry I went over your head with that. </p>

<p>I tried to find stats to compare OSU and Miami students because I am trying to understand the differences. All I can find is OSU's "admitted student" profile, vs. Miami's "Enrolled Student" profile. I'd love to see an enrolled student profile for OSU. If anybody has one that can be compared directly, I'd appreciate the link. However, comparing the ones I found, I don't see a huge difference. There are lots of other threads on this board about whether or not test scores are the be-all and end-all of applicant worthiness - you can check them out via the search function if you are interested.</p>

<p>I'm just not sure I understand the bitterness. Why come on another college's thread and trash the school? You said you were just answering the diversity issue. I would quibble with that, due to the tone you took. Even Miami itself acknowledges that there is a diversity issue (as do very many colleges). The "problem" as it were is that alumni children keep applying there, so the future student body does look a lot like their parents! </p>

<p>There were many aspects of college that we looked at when D was searching. We never did find a "perfect" school. My D had some tough decisions last April; giving up some things to get others. One aspect of diversity she did care about was International and out of state students. On that statistic, OSU admitted 16% out of state, including representatives from 24 countries; Miami enrolled 37% out of state, including 51 countries.</p>

<p>Diversity is defined by various attributes. We did not "litmus" a school based on skin color. Nevertheless, we have been pleasantly surprised at both the effort and the reality of Miami, and I suspect it's only going to get better.</p>

<p>My other two children have attended schools way different from Miami. And yet, the group of friends they made at those schools remarkably resembles the friends my D is accumulating. Perhaps people tend to find whatever it is they are looking for.</p>

<p>When I was writing my previous post about the diversity among the few people my D has already befriended, I actually had a line in there (which I edited out) that the only "people group" she hadn't yet met was any other republican. So I am glad to hear they are there. I think it's funny that if there are any republicans on a college campus, that is always listed as a negative. Most college campuses in the US tend to lean liberal, some heavily, and nobody ever seems to complain about that particular lack of diversity. </p>

<p>I was surprised by your attack on believersmom. Even if her name was Christian-based, it seems remarkably intolerant of you to attack someone based on their religion.</p>

25

<p>As I've said before, what matters is your group of friends. My dorm and my group of friends is diverse-- several of us were born and lived abroad, we're different races, different sexual orientations, have different political ideologies (although interestingly, my friends-- and dorm-- are predominantly liberal... only 3 would describe themselves as conservative), different religions, and really different majors. Perhaps my opinion is skewed because I have always lived in Honors dorms, or maybe it's because I actually go to Miami. As a student who is liberal, not white, not especially pretty, certainly NOT a sorority type, not from Ohio, whose family definitely makes under $100k, and whose academic profile was competitive at all schools (34 ACT, 11 APs, top 2% class rank), I think your opinions are colored by your negative experiences with former Miami students. Miami is certainly not known for its diversity, but it is also not nearly as bad as others claim.</p>

<p>I still have no idea why people try to compare OSU and Miami- as binx said, they are incredibly different schools. If you look at the list of schools that focus on teaching undergraduates (someone posted it in the past few days), 4 of the 6 schools that I applied to were on the top 10 national universities list (1 is on the list for LACs, and the 6th school was my instate public). I wanted a school that was known for its focus on undergraduates. Since I actually didn't know about that list until yesterday, I think I did a pretty good job of picking schools. Miami is known for its focus on teaching undergraduates; it does not have strong graduate programs and does not focus heavily on research. This semester, I have 2 classes with 10 or fewer students, and because there aren't many grad students, it was very easy for me to get involved with research. Conversely, OSU excels in research and has great graduate programs, but it is not known for its focus on teaching undergraduates. I actually am planning to apply to OSU for med school, but it certainly was not an ideal choice <em>for me</em> for undergrad.</p>

26

<p><<<all i="" can="" find="" is="" osu's="" "admitted="" student"="" profile,="" vs.="" miami's="" "enrolled="" profile.="" i'd="" love="" to="" see="" an="" enrolled="" student="" profile="" for="" osu.="">>></all></p>

<p>What Ohio State calls the "admitted" students are the enrolled students not the "accepted" students. I agree that the nomenclature is confusing, but they're the same numbers for the 2006 class that the Princeton Review has, that USN&WR just released in their 2008 rankings and that is in Ohio State's common data set which is the official data for any university.</p>

<p>Ohio State: <a href="http://oaa.osu.edu/irp/CDS0607Columbus.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://oaa.osu.edu/irp/CDS0607Columbus.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Miami of Ohio: <a href="http://www.units.muohio.edu/OIR/CommonDataSet/CDS2006_2007.xls%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.units.muohio.edu/OIR/CommonDataSet/CDS2006_2007.xls&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If, however, you think that you've stumbled--Inspector Closeau like--onto some great conspiracy, please report Ohio State to the appropriate authorites, for forever more you'll be a hero in the eyes of Miamians everywhere.</p>

<p>BTW, my father recieved an e-mail from the President's Club at Ohio State which was forwarded to me. It discussed the 2007 freshman class using the terms "accepted class" and "admitted class." I'll share the numbers with you.</p>

<p>2007</p>

<p>The class had a 22% increase in overall applications and a 50% increase in applications with a 32+ ACT score
Percentage of applicants accepted: 52%</p>

<p>Accepted Class
Top ten percent of high school class: 67%
Top quarter of high school class: 95%
Average ACT 30.1
Middle 50% range of ACT scores 28-33</p>

<p>Admitted Class
Top ten percent of high school class: 56%
Top quarter of high school class: 93%
Average ACT 28.4
Middle 50% range of ACT scores 26-30</p>

<p>Read 'em and weep Fredo of Ohio.</p>

<p>BTW, you shaved off a few countries for Ohio State's foreign enrollment. Not a lot though...just slightly over a hundred!
<a href="http://giveto.osu.edu/areas/excellence/index.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://giveto.osu.edu/areas/excellence/index.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>As for the whole "undergraduate focus" of Miami, I agree that it's true. How could it not be at a school that has little graduate or research program. It's the main reason that I considered going to Miami until I put it into context. However...</p>

<p>what I've found at Ohio State is that it takes a little performance and effort on one's part to make an impression on the faculty, but when one does the resources and quality of faculty that are available blow Miami out of the water. For instance...</p>

<p>There are no National of Academy of Sciences or National of Academy of Engineering members on Miami's faculty. In fact there's only one (an Engineering Academy member at Cincinnati) on the faculty of any public university other than Ohio State. There are 23 on faculty at Ohio State, plus 127 elected members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which is the pool from which future National Academy members are drawn.</p>

<p>Anectdotal evidence: the professor who taught my introductory chemistry class is named Malcolm Chisolm (not a household name I grant you). He is, however, both a member of the American National Academy of Sciences and the British Royal Academy of Sciences (you know other members have included Newton, Darwin and Hawking). He's on the short list the last several years for the Nobel in Chemistry. Every year that he's been at Ohio State, he's taught an introductory chemistry class. Would I have been exposed to that at Miami?</p>

<p>Guggenheim Fellows...beyond the very rare awards (Nobels, Fields Medals, Macaurthur Foundation Grants) this is the biggie for the arts, sciences, humanities and social sciences. Ohio State has had 32 in the last quarter century. That's more than every public and private university in Ohio combined. For comparison's sake, Miami and OhioU. have combined for 5.</p>

<p>My own field of Chinese. Ohio State is one of the few universities in the country that has multiple area studies programs designated as Comprehensive National Resource Centers by the Department of Education (Title VI) generally the top 10-15 programs in the nation: the East Asian Studies Center, the Slavic and East European Studies Center and the Middle Eastern Studies Center.</p>

<p>Granted all of these faculty have to balance undergraduate education, graduate students and research, but they are of a level that Miami could only dream of.</p>

<p>My own personal experience is that I've been invited to take part in a graduate level reading seminar with a political science professor named by Foreign Policy magazine as the third most influential scholar of international affairs in the world. Yes, I had to prove myself to get this opportunity but had I gone to Miami no amount of proving myself would have been adequate for his type does not exist in Oxford.</p>

28

<p>My last post on this thread. This is not a private clubhouse for Miami people. It's an open thread about college and college admissions. If someone posts a question about Miami's homogenous student body, it's anyone's right to come in and post information either confirming or disconfirming the stereotype.</p>

<p>If somebody wants an insular board where the sole focus is on Mother Miami and her dearly held illusions might I suggest Miami Hawk Talk dot Com. You, however, might not like what you find, for even there, they're debating the fact that kids with 27 ACT scores are ending up at Fredo solely because they were turned down by the state's true flagship university.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.miamihawktalk.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=36166%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.miamihawktalk.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=36166&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.miamihawktalk.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=35986%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.miamihawktalk.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=35986&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

29

<p>I know that sh60614 isn't posting anymore, but for anybody else who is interested, here are my sources from the OSU website. I wonder why they are publishing inaccurate info (in one place or the other.) </p>

<p>Class of 2006 profile, OSU:
<a href="http://www.undergrad.osu.edu/domesticfreshman.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.undergrad.osu.edu/domesticfreshman.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>On that page, you can type a question - I typed "profile class 2007" and get a page I can't link to, that includes a link for diversity. On that page, I get this direct quote from OSU's site concerning class of 2005:</p>

<p>
[quote]
About 16% of Columbus campus students come from outside Ohio, representing every U.S. state and territory and 24 countries.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Weird. Or is there really such a big difference between the class of 2005 and the class of 2006? </p>

<p>For people reading this thread wishing to explore all aspects of Miami, this is a good place to say, as has been said multiple times, that different schools fit different people. If Miami is a fit for you, you will find a lot to love. As sh60614 says, look specifically at your major, and what is offered to the students, and if it fits what you want. All the engineering or Chinese expertise in the world is not going to guarantee my D an excellent violin teacher, for example. My D started classes this week, and has no class over 30 people. That works well for her personality and learning style. My S, who went to an Ivy, had world famous teachers, but sat so far back in classes of 200 that those teachers never even made eye contact. (Which was fine with what my S wanted.) I am extremely grateful that there are enough schools in the US to find good matches for all 3 of my kids.</p>

<p>To get to the truth about any school, visit, talk to people who have actually gone there, and people who are going there. It also can help to talk to people who were admitted and chose to go elsewhere and see if their priorities are also yours. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, be suspicious of people who never applied, never attended, and have only second and third hand anecdotes about it - especially if they are only negative ones. This is true for any school you are considering. Including OSU.</p>

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<p>binx-</p>

<p>Well said. I did the same thing you did to find Ohio State's listing of the freshman profile, since it seemed like Miami's freshman profile on the website was the source for all the stats on Miami and I wanted to compare apples to apples. The part that was interesting to me was also how the stats were about "admitted" then at the very bottom there was one sentence, something like "of the above statistics, xyz actually enrolled." And on Ohio State's website I couldn't find the applied number, so it was a little tricky finding out the % admitted, yield, etc. Glad he cleared that up with the links to common data. Although for both schools' common data, there appears to be interesting things to look at. For example, both schools require either SAT or ACT tests for applications, however the number of those scores submitted are way less than what is reported as applied. Retention rates seem pretty close to me: 90% for Miami and 92% for Ohio State. I noticed OSU requires less Science and Social Studies in high school from their applicants and the six-year grad rate is 66% whereas Miami's is 80%.</p>

<p>Statistics do not trump anything for me anyway(you know we kool-aid drinkers just look at things thru our red & white glasses), anyone who has taken a half-way decent class in statistics knows that statistics can be manipulated as well as interpreted in a variety of ways. FACT is, as you have stated so clearly before, for some reason (perhaps the vast right-wing conspiracy of all those Christians running my alma mater) the VAST overwelming majority of alumni are completely rabid about their loyalty to Miami and loved their time there, and as sh60614 said, "where there is smoke there's got to be fire." That being said, the OP asked about the student body as far as snootiness. I don't care how you look at statistics, they are NEVER going to tell anyone about the personalities, attitudes or especially the souls of the people they represent. Hence, VISIT, VISIT, VISIT...ANYWHERE you are considering attending.</p>

<p>I really hope that he is not done posting here (and highly doubt he is, I don't believe he will be able to resist) as he just further illustrates the great differences between Ohio State U & Miami. And thank the Lord for those differences, quite frankly the two schools serve two different types of students and I can't see either of them being totally happy at each others' schools. A prospect that does not bother me in the least. The only one that seems to have a problem with the two schools being different is our Ohio State friend.</p>

<p>BTW- 20+ years ago when I attended Miami, I was the first one to go to college in my family, I am white and came from a very middle-income family. My Miami degree did VERY well by me and I credit it with 80% of the knowledge in running my businesses and thus it has been a huge factor in my success. Since sh60614 is seemingly fond of anecdotal evidence, here is mine: Of the hundreds of Miami students I have known and know, never has a single one of them been unhappy with the quality of education and they all would attend there again if they had it to do over. Maybe THAT is why so many children of alumni attend today. Although I concede it COULD be that some just want their children surrounded by wealthy children who are white, Christian, and republican because of course that's what one really needs to be successful in life, make a lot of money and support all the social programs in the world. [yes, in case there is any question, I AM being sarcastic :) ]</p>

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<p>And, while this may surprise you, sh60614, I think people SHOULD go to the two HawkTalk links you posted as it is a great and intelligent debate among intelligent Miamians.</p>

<p>I do think it is funny however, given your arguable dislike(my perspective, that is the impression you give) of Miami, how you are spending so much time on Miami sites. But then again, you ARE trying to save people from the cult. :o</p>

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<p>Well said Binx. Obviously sh60614 has a major axe to grind with Miami. God knows why. Someone must pee in his/her cheerios every morning. Here are a few points sh60614 conveniently forgot to discuss. First, while OSU has become more selective (and I applaud OSU for improving their selectivity), they leave the back door wide open. Go to community college or an OSU branch for a quarter or two, and transfer into OSU with a 2.5 GPA. Doesn't sound excessively selective to me. This is openly discussed right there on the OSU College Confidential discussion page. Secondly, it is quite hypocritical for sh60614 to describe the Miami student body as a 'cult'. In fact, the arrogant reputation of the 'Buckeye Nation' is one of the reasons I did not consider attending OSU! After graduating from Miami, I spent several years living in Columbus. I found that walking around wearing a Miami t-shirt anywhere within several miles of the OSU campus drew ugly stares and the occasional jeer. Either you were an OSU fan or your opinion didn't matter. I didn't notice such an extreme response to other schools at Miami. (At least not when I was there.) OSU is notorious for their bad behavior while hosting other schools at sporting events. Just ask any visitor from Michigan. OSU is more guilty of group-think and bad behavior disguised as school spirit than ANY other school I can think of. I now live in Chicago. Mention Ohio State here, and you will find many people roll there eyes and sarcastically add something along the lines of 'don't you mean THE Ohio State University. Those people are strange'. Lastly, it is well documented that Miami has the highest graduation rate of all public universities in Ohio - including OSU. In fact, Miami's graduation rate is among the highest of all public universities nationwide. The fact that Miami students perform well above expectations is a strong indicator of the success of Miami's focus on undergraduate education. As discussed ad nauseum, every prospective student must find the right fit. Miami students are VERY social, ambitious, and occasionally aggressive - and there is nothing inherently wrong with this. However, someone who is shy or with a lack of self-confidence will likely be intimidated by Miami. My (very intelligent) sister fit this description. She chose to attend Bowling Green and was very happy there. Personally, I found Miami to offer a fantastic learning environment. I was surrounded by very bright people who took their education seriously but maintained a healthy study/play balance. I have made numerous life-long friends at Miami. Prospective employers love Miami graduates - they graduate prepared. Regardless of where you decide to attend, the college experience is what you make of it. I know of people who attended Ivy League schools and adopted an attitude that made their college experiences miserable. I wish all of you the best of luck in your college search.</p>

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<p>I'm back only to clear up more nonsense. Do you people even look into the facts before posting? That's why I call it a cult; because the people at Miami live in this isolated, smug bubble of self-reinforcing stereotypes and misinformation that the real world seems unable to penetrate.</p>

<p>First off, the transfer compact between Ohio community colleges and Ohio's public four-year universities is system wide. It applies to Miami every bit as much as to Ohio State.</p>

<p>Second, regarding branch campuses, Miami's branch campuses are open admissions serving the exact same role as Ohio State's.</p>

<p>Third, in five years at Ohio State, I never saw anyone have a problem for wearing a Michigan sweatshirt on campus much less one from Miami. As for our gameday problems, they are real. When you have 50,000 rednecks from all over the state standing across the street from the stadium drinking all day you're going to have problems. It's a long and tortured stretch, however, to link those people and actions to the students and alumni of the university. But I guess when that's all one has, run with it.</p>

<p>Fourth, given the go-get-'em Miami student that you've described, isn't it ironic that, in ten year period studied, Ohio State undergraduate alumni were the ones more likely to eventually earn a Ph.D (2.7% to 2.6%)? Funny how the facts sometimes don't fit with the dearly held notions of superiority.</p>

<p>Fifth, mix in a paragraph occasionally.</p>

<p>As for the low regard that Ohio State is allegedly held in by Chicagoans, I'd take your opinions with a grain of salt. A quick look of our alumni lists show the following CEOs of prominent corporations, law firms, advertising firms and cultural institutions, and these are only the ones that have made it onto wikipedia. Yea, this guy is right, Buckeyes. Stay away from Chicago, we're unwelcome there. LOL though at the smug certainty with which the nonsense was posted.</p>

<p>Current CEO and Executive Partner of Grant Thornton (Big 5 accounting firm)
Former president of Navistar; current Governor of the Chicago Stock Exchange
Managing Partner of Sydley Austin (major international law firm headquartered in Chicago)
Pulitzer Prize winning cultural columnist for the Tribune
CEO of the Shedd Aquarium
Former President of Leo Burnett
2 Former CEOs of AMOCO
Former CEO of Sear & Robuck and namesake of DePaul's business school</p>

<p>If there's an equal list of Miami alumni in Chicago, I eagerly await its posting.</p>

34

<p>Like I asked before sh60614, who pees in your cheerios every morning? I am completely perplexed why a Bucknut like you even cares about Miami? Most Ohio State students and alumni could care less about Miami - and therefore mind there own business. Do you see Miami students and alumni openly bashing Ohio State on your pages of College Confidential. No. Perhaps because we have the class to let prospective students make their own decisions as to whether Miami is the correct fit for them. You dislike Miami and chose to attend Ohio State. Good for you. However, it is not acceptable for anyone to hide behind the cowardice of anonymity to bash other schools on their pages, Miami or otherwise; especially when we have not instigated you to do so. Your strange obsession with and animosity toward Miami is confounding. Are you that insecure? Given your open bashing, do you really think your fellow Ohio State students would be proud to consider you a worthy spokesperson for Ohio State? I think not. Are you that full of yourself to think you are the sole, rightful spokesperson for Ohio State, omnipotent regarding Miami, and completely entitled to attack us on our own board? You have never had the guts on this page to reveal what has prompted your rants here. Students and alumni from other schools have always been welcome to post here, and to do so respectfully, but you've clearly exceeded your welcome. I certainly hope you don't spread such unsolicited negativity in the rest of your other daily interactions. Have a nice life. Good riddance, and good luck.</p>

35

<p>sh60614, all i have to say is..... get a life</p>

36

<p>My son and I visited MOH today. He came back with lots of shirts and a very positive respect for MOH. The fact that the campus was not openly hostile to Christians was also a positive. Does that make us snobs? I hope not. Personally, I think tolerance ought to even extend to Christians. Is he a kid who could get in most places? Yes. He is a grade accelerated, NM Scholar finalist, tons of AP classes, 4.+ GPA. He’s also a kid who does missions work, holds a job, doesn’t smoke, drink, curse or have tattoos. People need to wake up in this country. Being an angry, anti-Christian liberal does not make you more intelligent. Miami seems like a great fit for my son. He loved his visit.</p>