Student debt, a reality check?

Parents Forum
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<p>
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I also think that level of debt for professional school is nuts, although lots of people have to do that these days, it affects your choice of specialty, lifestyle, etc.

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<p>But since most professional schools give very little if any grant money, and assume large debts are part of the picture, without them, only rich people would go to professional school.</p>

<p>My H went to a state medical school, but since we already had a family at the time, it our we financed our lviing expenses and tuition through loans entirely. He graduated in 1987 with about 60,000 in loans. It didn't impact his choice of speciality; he still went into pediatrics, which is a comparatively low paying area, and did community medicine (from a van in Newark). The loans only affect one's "lifestyle" if one expects that the profession should bring a certain level. Our loans payments were twice our mortgage. We live in a lower to middle class neighborhood with teachers, plumbers, etc as neighbors--their level of living seems good enough for us.</p>

<p>Now, 19 years after he graduated med school, with loans long paid off, he is officially no longer a doctor, but a very happy hs bio teacher. Another choice we couldn't have made if we'd ever chosen a more affluent lifestyle.</p>

<p>So overall, I think that as long as someone is going into the profession for the work itself, not a vision of lifestyle, then it's worth financing with loans, esp. something like medicine--where jobs are pretty much guaranteed.</p>

<p>I have also been researching law schools, and i have seen that many have loan forgiveness programs, so if you choose lower payinglaw work, like public interest, the school pays the loans or a portion of them back, depending on income. That is something else to factor in.</p>

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<p>For those that suggested state schools for law or med school, may I offer a reality check? Even if a student attends those schools, he'll still graduate with a significant amount of debt. For law school, total COA:</p>

<p>UVA, in-state: $42,000/year * 3 years = $125,000
William & Mary, in-state: $28,000/year * 3 years = $84,000
UNC Chapel Hill: $27,000/year * 3 years = $81,000
UConn, in-state: $34,000/year * 3 years = $102,000
UConn, New England residents: $42,500/year * 3 years = $127,000
UMich: $48,000/year * 3 years = $144,000
U. of Arizona: $27,000/year * 3 years = $81,000
George Mason: $40,000/year * 3 years = $120,000</p>

<p>Now, who thinks that $81,000 to $144,000 is a reasonable amount of debt - because the student is at a state school? I don't know the numbers for med school, but would be shocked if they were substantially lower. Considering (at least in law) the substantial effect of a school upon future earnings, why go the state route? Or rather, why flippantly say that state schools will save a lot of money? </p>

<p>Be aware that some states require more than mere residency for in-state status; also be aware that, unless you live in California or Virginia, there really aren't the diversity of options for professional school that there is for undergrad. It's often one school - or reciprocity at one school that's out-of-state.</p>

<p>My $0.02.</p>

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<p>Comment on kluges post. I am no republican adminisration apoligist; but it is a disservice to suggest that events outside ones controls are the reason for lifestyles. My children certainly will be in a better position than I was, I grew up in a moderate income great plains area, but my mom --single income in the 70's - along with money I was able to save received a degree from oft maligned state U--Texas Tech-- I received a MS from another stateU --Texas AM -- went into a professional job and now am able to send my kids to scholl where they think best. Evn Ivy with no debt if that works out. </p>

<p>In addition as a Geoscientist I have had a great career, travelling he world, doing work I enjoy, supporting charity in a meaningful way and being satisfied with my decisions and making the most of opportunities presented--I think, maybe i could have done more....</p>

<p>One of my granfathers moved to Norman Oklahoma in the 1910's so the kids could stay at home and go to college at OU. Uncles used the GI bill to get an education. </p>

<p>It has always been tough, you think wsuccessful kids trying to get an education in the 1930's blamed their situaiton on the government ... which in turn ran up enormous debt to pay for programs lik WPA , and then WW2 .... those that succeeded accepted as much as needed, changed what they could and made a life. </p>

<p>I am not saying it isnt difficult now, I am not saying I like the current administration , I am just saying if you choose to go into debt for 'prestige' realize that 'prestige' cant pay for a mortgage....</p>

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<p>keeping your educational costs down expands your choices so much.
if you are interested in medicine for example- many choices- from getting a two year registered nursing degree at a community college and having your employer foot the bill to become a nurse practicioner- to getting training to be any number of technicians or alternative medicine practitioners.
Not everyone needs or should be a doctor- communities cant afford it- any much of the care can be administered by those with less expensive educations.
You learn to adjust your expectations to what you can afford- that isn't anything new- but it seems that every generation has to learn it over again.</p>

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<p>When I say prof school debt is nuts, I'm mostly referring to private med school, but Ariesathena's point is well taken. Once you get over about $60K in debt, it is going to affect your future choices, and doctors delay the big bucks for years. Our instate med school tuition is a little over half that of an Ivy League undergrad - $22K-23K, I'm not sure what living expenses would be these days, I think they have some dorm accomodations for prof students, you use to get some free meals on call after the first 2 years, there are still ways to live very frugally if you can get a roommate or otherwise get the housing costs down. I never could figure how you made it in an expensive city.</p>

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<p>Cangel--I still agree that it doesn't have to affect your future career choices. My H's medical school debt was 60,000 dollars, twenty years ago, and he still was able to choose a specialty and a venue at the lowest end of the spectrum. You just can't also then expect to live the "doctor" lifestyle, that's true, but that's a matter of priorities at that point.</p>

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<p>rty456 - I guess that's the point I was trying to make. I was able to attend an excellent public law school in the 1970's for less than $800/yr tuition. It was literally possible to work your way through law school at a minimum wage job (then $2/hour) and emerge debt free - and many of us did. Law school tuition at the state school I attended is now over $22,000 per year. The minimum wage is now $5.15 - a buck or two more in some states. So working your way through law school is simply no longer an option. It's not a question of "prestige" - it's a matter of economic feasibility. My own kids will be OK - in large part because I've had the good fortune to avoid life events - divorce and illness - which limited my own parent's ability to help me and my sisters. But there are plenty of bright young people out there who don't have the good fortune of coming from a stable, two-parent home with adequate financial resources. And they simply don't have the same options available to them today that our generation did 30 years ago. It's always been tough, but our grandparent's generation made it less tough for our parents, and our parent's generation made it less tough for us - why have we made it harder for our kids' generation? </p>

<p>What I see happening in my profession is that the lawyers of the 21st century will all either be the children of the affluent or drones shackled to their desks by a mountain of debt. I can see how that would make some people happy but to me it's just one of a number of subtle societal tweaks which shift a little more power and wealth towards the top, and away from the bottom and the middle. The devil is in the details - and this is one of those details.</p>

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<p>"What I see happening in my profession is that the lawyers of the 21st century will all either be the children of the affluent or drones shackled to their desks by a mountain of debt."</p>

<p>Yes, and by "affluent" I would say "extremely affluent." In addition to the circumstances you describe, today's parents are putting lots of their money into their own health-care and retirement and can ill afford to bankroll a son or daughter's professional school unless the latter should care to support them in their old age.</p>

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<p>...which is why I once suggested tax breaks for *students<a href="and%20only%20students">/i</a> who are repaying educational loans. Would make it easier for those who have to pay their own way through - ideally, would mean that medicine and law are not the havens of the wealthy.</p>

<p>I got shot down by almost every liberal on the board. </p>

<p>Sounds like a conservative idea (tax cuts for the wealthy!) but, in practice, would really help the professional-working-class, which is populated by highly intelligent kids from not-so-wealthy backgrounds. </p>

<p>Just saying....</p>

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<p>Kluge, good points about the lawyers of the 21st century. Our S is a first-year student at our flagship public and intends to go to law school after graduation. He has expressed interest in public service for many years, but we really won't be able to help much with grad school. I'm very concerned that he will incur a mountain of debt and make it highly impractical to choose the type of work that would give him satisfaction. I'll be urging him to look for law schools that offer debt reduction, reduced tuition or scholarships of some kind. I believe there's a program at U Washington. I think even Harvard offers some cost reductions or scholarships for law students who choose a public service legal career. Right now, S thinks debt is no big deal (because he has none, I guess!!).</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Education/Scholarships/PLS/default.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Education/Scholarships/PLS/default.htm&lt;/a>
I also just did a search for public service law scholarships and found quite a few.</p>

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<p>Harvard offers an incredibly generous low-income protection plan. Go to their law school site; go to financial aid; search for LIPP. Basically, the student is responsible for a certain amount of loans at determined income levels; the school picks up the rest. </p>

<p>I should have mentioned this earlier, but I'll say it now... I feel like undergrad really has a very viable distinction between the cost of attendance at prestige schools and lower-ranked schools - financial aid and merit scholarships are very common. It's the situation where, for a good student whose parents fall into the "zone" of too rich for aid, too poor to afford it, the cost of a BMW school may be greater than the cost of a Ford Taurus school (once you're done with merit aid). (Obviously, there are some exceptions, but I'm not haggling.)</p>

<p>Law school is different. The COA of a Ford Taurus school will most likely be the same as a BMW school - so why pay BMW money for a Taurus? For many students, there is no low-cost way to go through the system. As my post above illustrates, even the much-hallowed money-saving state schools don't really "save" the student much money. Why pay full freight in-state for UMich when Yale is only $6,000/year more?</p>

<p>Some of this is because most law schools simply do not have affordable living options, so an extra $8,000/year or so is tacked onto the bill - which, over three years, adds a substantial amount to the debt. It is rare to find schools that have dorms that you would want to live in, or, if you did, that would guarantee you space and actually save you some money. Unlike in undergrad, you often have to pay a full year's rent, not nine month's rent. </p>

<p>The other issue (sorry to ramble) is that it doesn't make sense to save a few hundred dollars per year, while going over six figures in debt, to live in a bad situation. Law school is a grueling experience - I could not imagine trying to do this without a safe haven. Sure, I could save about $100/month by living with more than one person - but will the $3,500 at the end of three years really be worth it? My debt will be, oh $127,000 instead of $130,000. The debt isn't about a few hundred or thousand dollars; it's about a hundred thousand, give or take. So it's completely irrational to say that students can cut down their debt - because it's really hard to substantially reduce your law school loans. </p>

<p>Rant over.</p>

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<p>I agree, Garland, there are ways of preserving your choice of specialty in the face of debt and rising COA to medical school, but it is getting more and more difficult every year. Also, I think your husband is a very special person (and I think we have lost a very special practitioner, although I understand perfectly) - most people/families don't have the unselfishness and commitment to follow the path you guys have. Also, there are all the costs of setting up practice and a life. I was very blessed in that my parents were able to pay for all my education, but, we finished training at age 30 with only modest savings because my husband had had several brushes with unemployment, and I wasn't able to moonlight.
That's way to long to say that more and more people find their final decisions in med school affected by debt in ways they never dreamed of when they signed those papers in undergrad.</p>

<p>Aries, I feel your pain, you are attending a fine law school, and it will end with a good salary. I also hear what you are saying about a safe haven - imagine being on call and falling asleep driving home, or coming home alone at midnight - you appreciate a safe place.</p>

<p>I will safe for the kids - med school is a little different than law school, there is much less dichotomy among med schools. It matters much less which med school you attend than it seems for law. Yes, there are some better regarded med schools, and some less well regarded ones, but in general it doesn't matter - residency is different, and your ability to obtain a competitive residensy may depend on doing very well in med school, but not so much on which med school</p>

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<p>I agree with you both, ariesathena and aparent5. It does seem that the cost of professional educations is prohibitive and those emerging from school are either from affluent families or suffocated by debt. I love the idea of tax breaks for students repaying educational debts! Heck, if you can get a tax break for children's daycare, why not for education? Both encourage a more productive society.</p>

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<p>ariesathena - you make my point a lot more clearly than I did. The problem is that there is no "low cost option" for a would-be professional school student - at any level of "prestige". It's either ridiculously expensive - or even more ridiculously expensive. And the various bandaids - a handful of scholarships for those who commit to specified "public service" jobs (5 Gates scholarships per year?) or for that matter, tax deductibility of student loans - are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. </p>

<p>How's this for a concept - as a matter of public policy education should be provided at state funded schools for all levels of study at an annual tuition cost of no more than 500 time the minimum wage. Doesn't have to be "high prestige", "first tier", or anything fancy. Just an education sufficient to qualify a hard working student to start a career if they have the brains and diligence to do the job, even if they can't afford to attend a top level private school.</p>

<p>Yeah, I know - pie in the sky liberalism.</p>

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<p>Things for the middle class are much worse. "In my day," I accumulated about $1500 in debt for my undergrad, and $4700 in debt for grad school (Ph.D.). It was quite manageable, and the grad school was one of those expensive privates as well. My parents contributed nothing to either, I worked through both. I doubt it would be possible for a student & their parents to do what I did at the schools I attended and walk away with under $150,000 or more in debt.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your kind comments, Cangel. Medicine's loss is education's gain! :) H says that medicine is a field for young folks; so you must be a kid still!</p>

<p>It's true that we made some unusual choices along the way. I guess what I want to do is suggest that though not the norm, there are other, possible pathways.</p>

<p>Neither of my kids would touch medicine with a ten foot pole. But I'd put even money on my S going to law school eventually. I fully expect he'll fund it with loans; we just won't have the money to help. If he goes instate, then Rutgers has a fine and not too expensive law school; if he wants to go private, then that's when those wonderful loan forgiveness programs i've been reading up on will come into play.</p>

<p>Luckily, both my kids were brought up with the frugal mantra, so if they, like their parents, have to live for a while like church mice, it will feel familiar! :) (After spending years their first years living in a tiny apartment over a pizzeria, our five and a half room house seemed like a palace to them!)</p>

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<p>Debt incurred while attending a professional degree(law, medicine, dental, vet medicine) should be looked upon as an long term investment. Yes, it may limit one's choices early on but should provide handsome dividents in the long term.</p>

<p>Undergraduate debt is a different matter entirely. For some students the choice may be a stark one, earning a college degree and accumulating a sizeable debt vs foregoing or deferring college. I have great sympathy for this group of students. But because the job market for those with no college degree is becoming bleeker as time marches on, it is likely that these college grads will benefit in the long run.</p>

<p>For some others taking on significant debt is more a matter of choice. For instance my son attends Rensselaer but could have attended a university like Cornell. However the cost differential would have been in the neighborhood of $100,000 and he is on track to graduate with a $55,000 nest egg to deal with!</p>

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<p>Kluge - </p>

<p>I might be a conservative, but I whole-heartedly agree. To me, part of being conservative is believing in education, allowing people who have the brains and the drive to work their way up, and investing in ourselves so that America continues to be a global leader. (Which is why I often say that I have very, very conservative motivations for any policy I advance, although it might look liberal in nature.) </p>

<p>Your solution would allow students to work their way through school. I would also love to see a re-vamping of the entire law school system so that students could put themselves through while working - perhaps some sort of 5-year stretch where you alternate school and work. </p>

<p>From my perspective, the legal field is already too populated with upper/upper-middle class people who dabbled through undergrad and then had Daddy pay for law school. Sad that the same expansion to access to education ends up having the effect of driving the non-wealthy out. </p>

<p>See PM, by the way.</p>

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<p>UT-Austin is ranked in the top 15 law schools, and it's only $18,000/yr for instate, a comparatively low priced option. However, the avg student debt is $66,00!!</p>