Student diversity in the Ivy League: Princelings

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<p>One does not need foreign media to see that even the Chinese government and media at least acknowledge that there is a corruption problem, and that some within the government are either attempting to fight it, or at least look as though they are fighting it.</p>

<p>[More</a> officials probed for graft |Latest News |chinadaily.com.cn](<a href=“http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012cpc/2012-10/29/content_15852422.htm]More”>More officials probed for graft |Latest News |chinadaily.com.cn)
[700,000</a> officials receive anti-corruption education |Politics |chinadaily.com.cn](<a href=“China Daily Website - Connecting China Connecting the World”>700,000 officials receive anti-corruption education - China - Chinadaily.com.cn)
[Over</a> 660,000 officials get punished for corruption |Politics |chinadaily.com.cn](<a href=“China Daily Website - Connecting China Connecting the World”>Over 660,000 officials get punished for corruption |Politics |chinadaily.com.cn)
[Spouse</a> anti-corruption class held |Society |chinadaily.com.cn](<a href=“China Daily Website - Connecting China Connecting the World”>Spouse anti-corruption class held - China - Chinadaily.com.cn)</p>

<p>““One does not need foreign media to see that even the Chinese government and media at least acknowledge that there is a corruption problem,…””</p>

<p>Corruption within the Chinese government is no secret at all. It has been a primary incentive for the CCP to push economic reforms in China ----- the CCP is among the foremost beneficiaries. Deng clearly stated, when he initiated economic reforms in the early 1980’s, that a major objective was to initially let certain groups to become wealthy and then spread prosperity toward the rest of China. Of course, the CCP would be among those at the front of the line in taking advantage of the economic boom. But how much has corruption cost the Chinese economy? We can use Premier Wen’s recent scandal as a proxy for a ballpark estimate.</p>

<p>It is also not surprising at all that Wen’s family may have amassed huge fortunes, when for example, his wife showed up in many semi-public occasions since several years ago, wearing jewelry that were estimated close to a million (US$). And there are likely political motives behind the materials pointing to corruption, which were revealed right before the coming change of Chinese leadership. Corruption charges have been a popular way to attack opposing factions of party officials in power struggles within the CCP.</p>

<p>Let’s assume that the alleged US$ 2.7 B figure, is somewhat close to the amount of fortune that Wen’s family have amassed. For the 10 years that Wen presided as premier, the Chinese GDP has surged by more than US$ 6 T. So Wen, as the de-facto CEO of China Corp., has been “compensated” at a rate of less than 0.045 %, which is comparable to what a true CEO would fetch in a real corporation. By extension, the CCP is probably about as greedy as many executives in the corporate world, but especially less than many at Wall St. This is the background setting that has allowed corruption to co-exist with the Chinese economy which has grown leaps-and-bounds, year-after-year.</p>

<p>That being said, only the first half of Deng’s statement has been realized, that certain groups to become wealthy, while it is still a work-in-progress to spread prosperity toward the rest of China. Some of the original beneficiaries inside CCP, are already entrenched in the current system and they are reluctant to upset the status quo of collecting benefits through corruption. One major criticism of the Hu-Wen administration, is the lack of proper action in the name of maintaining stability, even after substantial research for economic as well as political reforms. But ironically, this is exactly what has created social instability across China.</p>

<p>[World</a> Development Indicators and Global Development Finance - Google Public Data Explorer](<a href=“World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer”>World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer)</p>

<p>““Also, when the people grumble about corruption and other problems, but such grumbling is censored, is the state really acting in the interests of the collective? …and that some within the government are either attempting to fight it, or at least look as though they are fighting it.””</p>

<p>For example, there is currently a protest in Ningbo about the installation of a potentially toxic paraxylene facility at a petro-chemical plant over there. The Chinese people have become more-and-more demanding on the quality of their living environment. And more important, they are willing to take their grievances onto the street. Incidents like this suggest that either that the CCP would proceed with more economic as well as political reforms under the new Chinese leadership of Xi-Li or face still more unrests.</p>

<p>Which begs the question, what would make the CCP take on reforms? A reasonable answer is self-preservation. It was the Cultural Revolution which brought China toward collapse, that prompted Deng to initiate economic reforms in the early 1980’s to preserve CCP rule. Now that the stability budget, funding to maintain social order, has exceeded the military budget, the CCP already knows that economic as well as political reforms are eventually needed for their own survival and hence, there is indeed a war against corruption beyond the typical corruption charges among opposing factions of party officials. For example, Lt.-General Gu was recently court-marshalled for corruption on the order of General Liu, a princeling, by the way.</p>

<p>[Ningbo</a> protest, response both typical of China’s environmental debate - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/ningbo-protest-response-both-typical-of-chinas-environmental-debate/2012/10/29/ac4c8e5e-21f6-11e2-8448-81b1ce7d6978_story.html]Ningbo”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/ningbo-protest-response-both-typical-of-chinas-environmental-debate/2012/10/29/ac4c8e5e-21f6-11e2-8448-81b1ce7d6978_story.html)</p>

<p>[Now</a> military corruption scandal clouds China succession - Chicago Tribune](<a href=“Now military corruption scandal clouds China succession”>Now military corruption scandal clouds China succession)</p>

<p>““Among the few who try to be better informed, Americans do have less restricted access to varied media and viewpoints, including foreign ones, than Chinese do.””</p>

<p>Not as much of a difference as you may imply. First, it isn’t that difficult for those inclined to breach the Chinese Firewall. Second, it is just a matter of inconvenience to type banned phrases in a Chinese forum, similar to how one can bypass a profanity filter with some other combination of characters. Third, many among the hundreds of thousands HK people working in China, like to smuggle magazines and newspapers across the border as gifts. When there is a will, there is a way. :-)</p>

<p>Thanks, StillGreen, that was interesting.</p>

<p>In the movie The Year of Living Dangerously, Billy Kwan hangs a banner from the balcony of a hotel. It reads: “Sukarno, Feed Your People.” That’s the point. </p>

<p>I don’t care if the leader of a country enriches himself if the country does well for its citizens. That rarely happens. The kind of system where so much is concentrated in an oligarchy of power tends to be bad at governing. But the Chinese “Communist Party” - put in quotes because they are a light year away from being Communist these days - has been doing very well. The magnitude of the task they undertook as they shifted away from Mao cannot be understated: a significant percentage of all humans, embroiled in a massive system that denied ownership of private property and forced collectivism, were brought from being way behind to positions of leadership in many fields. Chinese companies now are world leaders in many areas and Chinese universities now produce actual research. It’s amazing. </p>

<p>I give credit to the deep entrenchment of the Chinese Imperial merit system coupled with a kind of efficiency the Imperial - and Nationalist - age couldn’t touch. That the government has managed this as well as it has is incredible. I’m not downplaying the failures or ignoring human rights. (As an aside, my kids’ elementary school has had strong ties to notable dissidents through their families.) </p>

<p>But in general, I don’t care if those in power enrich themselves as long as they enrich the rest. That in a nutshell is the argument made in the US: decrease taxes on the wealthy, allow “natural” inequality in income to increase and the reward will be jobs for all and greater prosperity. I would argue China has done a better job. In the US, as one extremely wealthy man said recently, if lower taxes and greater inequality made more jobs, we should be swimming in jobs by now. </p>

<p>I always remember the phrase, “Sukarno, feed your people.” I’m a student of Rome. Arguably the greatest manager of all was Augustus. He never officially became emperor but he took personal control of the Egyptian grain supply. That meant an astounding degree of wealth, but he did it to feed the people of Rome more efficiently. Imagine trying to feed more than a half million people in those days.</p>

<p>““embroiled in a massive system that denied ownership of private property and forced collectivism…Chinese Imperial merit system coupled with a kind of efficiency the Imperial - and Nationalist - age couldn’t touch.””</p>

<p>After Mao died in 1976, Deng rose to power in 1978. He realized that after a decade of political and social unrest from the Cultural Revolution, China was heading for collapse and the CCP would be dismantled in the process. Probably out of self-preservation for the CCP, Deng redirected China from an obsession of political struggles to an emphasis of economic reforms. He established the ideological foundation to incorporate a market economy and cleverly re-packaged the approach as “socialism with Chinese characteristics”. This transformation marked the beginning of the end of communism in China. The resulting political structure evolved from totalitarian into a benevolent authoritarian regime with the CCP still monopolizing political power and a market economy serving the needs of the common people. The CCP’s management costs over the common people have significantly been reduced (less control outside of politics), allowing more energy to be channelled toward economic reforms.</p>

<p>A major breakthrough in merging a market economy with socialism, was the ideological separation of ownership and sovereignty in the 1980’s, which allowed the proliferation of market transactions (property rights have to be established before monetary exchanges of goods can happen) and provided crucial signals for the Chinese government to construct policies with economic efficiency (the “dictator” has to know what the market needs in order to become benevolent). The information costs for resources allocation have significantly been reduced and the benefits of comparative advantage have ignited the economy of the entire country.</p>

<p>““Chinese universities now produce actual research.””</p>

<p>Some examples,</p>

<p>[Quantum</a> teleportation achieved over record distances<a href=“World%20record%20at%20publication,%20now%202nd%20farthest”>/url</a></p>

<p>[url=&lt;a href=“http://www.nature.com/news/neutrino-oscillations-measured-with-record-precision-1.10202]Neutrino”&gt;Neutrino oscillations measured with record precision | Nature]Neutrino</a> oscillations measured with record precision : Nature News & Comment](<a href=“http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7410/full/nature11332.html]Quantum”>Quantum teleportation and entanglement distribution over 100-kilometre free-space channels | Nature)</p>

<p>"“Thanks, StillGreen, that was interesting.”"</p>

<p>My pleasure. :-)</p>

<p>When my kid was in school in China, they were “treated” to a meeting with a big shot in provincial security. It was a lecture about following rules. They eventually figured out one of the host families took their hosted American on a picnic in an area closed to foreigners. That led to “how did they know?” questions - with all that implies - but, believe me, no one asked them out loud. As I hinted at above, our elementary school has had as students the children of some people in prison for political action in China. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t say the rule is entirely “benevolent” but it is certainly no longer malevolent as it so often was in the days of Mao. One of the music teachers lived through the Cultural Revolution. That was malevolence but it doesn’t touch the Great Leap Forward in evil.</p>

<p>Thing that people don’t get about China is it has a long history of rewarding merit. The Imperial system used exams and those allowed a bright kid from a rural village to rise to a position of power. The current system actively looks for bright kids and gives them extra attention. This can become extreme: their families may be strongly encouraged to have the child go live in another city to receive special instruction. This is done in many areas, from math and music to sports. But while we spend money on remedial education, they spend money on pushing their best. Their idea is that China is poor and it needs to be pulled into prosperity by the efforts of their brightest and most motivated.</p>

<p>They also teach things differently, specifically in math and science. A more typical Chinese school would teach by rote while a US school aims at teaching underlying understanding. The Chinese approach assumes that math is hard to understand, that few can really understand it but that most people can learn and remember what they’re taught if they put in the effort. So they drill them with equations and problems that don’t require figuring out new applications but rather apply exactly what they are learning as they have learned it. This has the advantage of generating large number of reasonably well educated people - at least in those areas where this works, like math and hard science. They try to identify those capable of knowing more and push them further. Our approach has the advantage of generating more creative people but at the cost of generating fewer people, allowing for population size, who know the basics. To be blunt, their math instruction is boring but it works. </p>

<p>We can talk about free markets, etc. but much of what drives China comes from the top down. That is a purpose of making the country rich infects society. It carries down to individuals. It expresses in good and bad ways. (A bad is the tainted milk scandals that saw many executions in response.) But it is a purpose.</p>

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<p>Depending on the imperial era, certain dynasties have done a better/worse job in general or at different points in their reign. Can’t really generalize there. </p>

<p>As for the nationalists, keep in mind they had to cope with European/Japanese colonialism, disunity due to continuing control by warlords, ongoing civil wars due to said warlords, Communist guerrilla movements(there was more than one at some points), some effects of the worldwide great depression, and Japanese invasions in 1931 and the all-out invasion from 1937-45. </p>

<p>Moreover, speaking of merit, the CCP did drop it during the Cultural Revolution and replaced it with a form of peasant/worker class affirmative action and whoever is the greatest Maoist political hack. Result…research/educational institutions and the vast majority of the country effectively shut down for a decade. </p>

<p>It even impacted the PLA as shown by the delay in some jet fighter designs like the J-8 interceptor fighter which was test flown in the late '60s…but failed to make it into production until the early '80s. </p>

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<p>Keep in mind that the Cultural Revolution is still such a sensitive subject that most people…especially in an environment filled with security type folks may not be as candid about their experiences during those disastrous events with anyone outside of extreme close family/friends. </p>

<p>One reason why she may say the Great Leap Forward is worse is that even the CCP as early as the '80s have publicly acknowledged that it’s a mistake so more open criticism of it is allowed vs the Cultural Revolution. That…and she may have been of a good worker/peasant background and thus…more protected than those who weren’t from the “good class backgrounds”</p>

<p>Also, lets not forget the 100 Flowers campaign not too long before the Great Leap when they encouraged intellectuals to make criticisms of the party and then harshly persecuted them for it. </p>

<p>BTW: A branch of my family lived through all those events and they said they were equally malevolent and evil in different ways. With one…massive starvation. With the others, getting struggled, beaten, and/or “sent down to the countryside” by CCP/Red Guards who were their own students(university level) or classmates of their kids(middle school). Part of that may have been because they were “intellectuals”…one of the “bad backgrounds” at the time. </p>

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<p>This is one thing that I will give the Mainland Chinese along with many other parts of the world. </p>

<p>One thing I find odd is how being brightly intelligent is not only not encouraged in much of the US…but often discouraged/disdained…even by some parents here on CC who have issues with “Nerds”. </p>

<p>This is reinforced by how many mainly American activists feel any academic programs catering to the brightly intelligent…especially those in public schools are “elitist” and should be eradicated.* </p>

<p>The history of politicians/groups like Mayor Lindsay, ACORN, or others making this very argument in trying to shut down magnet high schools from the late '60s onward and their success in shutting down the old Townsend Harris HS and attempts to do the same with the SHS is one illustration. </p>

<p>Another is the actual effects when they were successful as was the case with the once academically elite CCNY/CUNY system. Because of the very same arguments, they went from selective admissions on academic merit to “Open admission” for all NYC public school graduates. </p>

<p>Within the decade, CCNY/CUNY went from being a highly respected academic institution to being a symbol of academic mediocrity where they were forced to offer more remedial classes than advanced undergraduate offerings which once predominated. This stigma persisted well into the late '90s until the city, state, and the system decided to start making changes to bring back some academic merit and create programs like Macaulay which cater to the above-average or better students. </p>

<ul>
<li>Even Communist Countries like the former Soviet Union track their students from an early age…and they were much more aggressive about it according to several classmates’ parents who emigrated from the Eastern Bloc.</li>
</ul>

<p>"“It was a lecture about following rules.”"</p>

<p>The above is only one side of the coin. The other side is defiance of the government from the Chinese people, seldom mentioned in the western media. There is even a common Chinese phrase, “The top has policies, the bottom has strategies”, which is also real-life practice. To a good extent, the Chinese people are accustomed to finding workarounds, similar to what I have mentioned earlier about the Chinese Firewall. Even corruption is a backdoor to defying the government authorities. As a matter of fact, this is a major underlying reason about the lack of compliance to official rules in China. It is somewhat like a beach ball floating on water, the harder the push down, the swifter the bounce up. So far, it is the Chinese government that has been gradually adapting, as more reforms will come along with the stability budget steadily becoming unmanageable.</p>

<p>"“I wouldn’t say the rule is entirely “benevolent” but it is certainly no longer malevolent as it so often was in the days of Mao…”"</p>

<p>I was playing with the description of “benevolent dictator”. :slight_smile: But it should be clear within context that “benevolent” was referring to government policies which are efficient in allocating resources across China. Mao was an egocentric madman, willing to destroy whatever threatening his political dominance. That is another story.</p>

<p>"“Thing that people don’t get about China is it has a long history of rewarding merit…”"</p>

<p>One of the five bottons of the Zhongshan Suit (Zhongshan as in Sun yat-sen), often mis-named as the “Mao Suit”, represents “examination”, referring to the ancient process of recruiting government officials through a system of examinations from the village all the way toward the central government.</p>

<p>"“They also teach things differently, specifically in math and science. A more typical Chinese school would teach by rote while a US school aims at teaching underlying understanding… They try to identify those capable of knowing more and push them further. Our approach has the advantage of generating more creative people but at the cost of generating fewer people, allowing for population size, who know the basics. To be blunt, their math instruction is boring but it works.”"</p>

<p>I have direct and indirect experience in both systems. I would say the Chinese system works more efficiently upto at least the middle-school level for these reasons.</p>

<p>A. Many teachers at middle schools and below, don’t have enough training in math to genuinely teach the subject in terms of understanding;
B. The talented few simply have their own minds running independent of the math taught in class.</p>

<p>For example, I have to personally teach my kids math, despite the so-called “understanding” taught in class. And when I was a kid, I didn’t even need to pick up any math textbooks, until the equivalent of Calculus I. Similarly for physics. At least for me and a few others I knew as classmates, we could generalize on the so-called “rote-learning” and grasp the “understanding” on our own. It came rather naturally and didn’t need to be taught at these earlier stages. Individualized instructions would be the best, which is the reason that I personally teach my kids aside from school. But on the national scale and with a limited budget, the so-called “rote-leaning” would be more efficient for the entire class, because the talented few can still educate themselves on their own. By the way, SAT Math, including Level 2, is a joke. :-)</p>

<p>As a minor digression, I even refrain from teaching my kids with my own understanding in math and science (research level at some areas, graduate level at others). Most of the time I just assign them appropriately-challenging materials and let them explore on their own. Only when they got stuck would I give them a nudge. As a result, they have been developing their individual thinking patterns, which can be crude (from an adult’s PoV), sometimes brilliant, and occasionally astounding. But more important, they run their enquiring minds on their own and I only serve as an occasional crutch. :slight_smile: So individualized instructions would still be the best, but the so-called “rote-learning” may temper less on the talented few (as boredom is also a motivator for creativity) than actually feeding them with “understanding” (which may be half-baked to begin with).</p>

<p>"“We can talk about free markets, etc. but much of what drives China comes from the top down…”"</p>

<p>Merely coming from the top is far from enough for practice, because the information costs for efficient resources allocation are non-negligible. As an analogy, a guided missile can destroy a target with one shot, but merely dropping bombs from the top would take a squadron of B-29’s. :slight_smile: There should have been an abundance of stories around, about some factories under communism, endlessly crunching out non-marketable items, just enough to make the workers busy. But a market economy has provided crucial signals for the Chinese government (which is only communist by name but capitalist by nature) to construct policies with economic efficiency. For example, a manufacturing plant in China is constructed with the guidance of a plethora of market data, as to what, where, when, how to be built; what, where, when, how to be marketed; and what, where, when, how to whatever else; such that wasteful spending can practically be minimized. And similar economic efficiency applies to other endeavors.</p>

<p>““Keep in mind that the Cultural Revolution is still such a sensitive subject that most people…especially in an environment filled with security type folks may not be as candid about their experiences during those disastrous events with anyone outside of extreme close family/friends.””</p>

<p>The above isn’t true. The CCP has thoroughly denounced the Cultural Revolution a long time ago. For example, even one of the accusations toward Bo, the former Secretary of CCP at Chongqing, is about the revival of “Red” teachings.</p>

<p>“Wen also refered to the damage wrought by the Cultural Revolution - a reference that alluded to Bo’s red revival in Chongqing …”, <a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/08/world/asia/china-bo-xilai-profile/index.html[/url]”>China's Bo Xilai: From rising star to scandal - CNN;

<p>““Part of that may have been because they were “intellectuals”…one of the “bad backgrounds” at the time.””</p>

<p>Which is a primary reason that many of the leading Chinese officials, are engineering or science majors. Those disciplines were considered politically neutral and hence, popular for those who wanted to lessen the chance of prosecution during the Cultural Revolution.</p>

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<p>There’s a big difference from the CCP party talking about it to score political points against rival factions and anyone else…especially intellectuals and scholars from having substantive discussions about it. </p>

<p>Even Chinese intl students I’ve encountered who came over to the US within the last couple of years have noted that it’s something one only discusses with close family/friends as it is still “too politically sensitive”…especially if it’s goes outside the narrowly defined CCP orthodoxy. </p>

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<p>Actually, an intellectual in the eyes of the Maoist CCP/Red Guards was anyone who was a highly educated…including STEM fields. </p>

<p>Incidentally, both my great-aunt/uncle who were “struggled”, beaten, and sent to the countryside with their kids were STEM Profs…Physics and Agriculture respectively. Granted, the latter was also a Cornell grad school alum so that may have played a factor.</p>

<p>You may also want to look into how even military R & D was impacted by the struggling against “intellectual” engineers.</p>

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<p>A simple comparison between the Chinese national math curriculum (or any provincial ones, which are almost identical to the national one) with the math text books and teaching practices in US schools will show the above statements to be completely false. EVERY Chinese middle school student is taught proof based geometry, how to factor polynomials, the DERIVATION of quadratic formula, not the mere memorization of it or just using a TI graphing calculator.</p>

<p>The Chinese don’t assume or believe that math is something so hard that only selected few can excel at. They believe that math is a subject everyone can master with some effort. And they believe in practice and problem drills, just like for athletes and musicians. EVERY Chinese 2nd grader knows the times table by heart, it may take repeated recitations. The practice does not hinder the understanding, but rather enhances it. Repeated practice turns understanding into 2nd nature, intuition. Ask any top USMO finisher or an IMO qualifier how many practice math problems they have done, the answer will be thousands. </p>

<p>The belief that US math education is better at understanding than China is pure delusion. And I have seen it first hand: my daughter’s 1st grade teacher once warned me that she had problem understanding mathematical concepts, because she refused to count blocks or her fingers while doing single digit addition/subtraction.</p>

<p>““There’s a big difference from the CCP party talking about it to score political points against rival factions and anyone else…especially intellectuals and scholars from having substantive discussions about it.””</p>

<p>This isn’t true either. Cultural Revolution isn’t a tabooed topic in China at all. It is even taught early in school. Here is a slide show (50 pages) for a Grade 8 history class at “Nine Hills Junior” in China ----- Lesson 7: The 10 years of Cultural Revolution. There are many more examples at the links to the right of the webpage.</p>

<p>[Lesson</a> 7: The 10 years of Cultural Revolution](<a href=“百度文库”>百度文库)</p>

<p>““Even Chinese intl students I’ve encountered who came over to the US…it’s something (Cultural Revolution) one only discusses with close family/friends…””</p>

<p>Maybe we have rather different circle of friends? :slight_smile: Mine talk about anything in private occasions, from Mao organizing party sex; the Tank Man (still my hero) at Tiananmen Square; to which performers have been Jiang’s mistresses… Cultural Revolution? It is really no big deal, as long as you don’t draw a following on the Internet like Ai.</p>

<p>““Actually, an intellectual in the eyes of the Maoist CCP/Red Guards was anyone who was a highly educated…including STEM fields… You may also want to look into how even military R & D was impacted by the struggling against “intellectual” engineers.””</p>

<p>STEM majors took less of a beating than humanities majors. And relatively speaking, science was a protected field as compared to humanities during the Cultural Revolution. The then Premier Zhou actually assigned troops to protect the key personnels, such as the Three Qian’s, Xuesen ----- Father of Aerospace, Weichang ----- Father of Mechanics, and Sanqiang ----- Father of the A-bomb.</p>

<p>Here is a review of science development during the Cultural Revolution. The impact on R&D was less than those in other areas such as humanities.</p>

<p>“Universities shut down and academic research came to a halt, but state-protected science related to defense and national prestige remained. Innovation continued, but it was primarily related to production in an Edisonian, non-theoretical way. The physics of relativity and the science of genetics took major hits, but the mass line proved to have benefits in areas where millions of field assistants could be employed—fields such as seismology and weather monitoring. Future decades would witness a gap between science and talent among professionals,due to the “dead weight” of the poorly prepared Cultural Revolution generation; however, millions of rural peasants gained access to science and technology for the first time. Despite the general disaster of the Cultural Revolution, it may be argued that, in some ways, Chairman Mao’s science policy did have benefits to scientific innovation and that the mass line emerged better prepared to meet a technological future in the final decades of the twentieth century.”, [Academia.edu</a> | Science Innovation during the Cultural Revolution: Notes from the Peking Review | Darryl E. Brock](<a href=“(PDF) Science Innovation during the Cultural Revolution: Notes from the Peking Review | Darryl Brock - Academia.edu”>(PDF) Science Innovation during the Cultural Revolution: Notes from the Peking Review | Darryl Brock - Academia.edu)</p>

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<p>That’s not the case as illustrated by PLA military projects such as the J-8 interceptor* fighter which is a derivative of an early version of the MiG-21 the Soviets provided with manufacturing plans not too long before/during the Sino-Soviet split. Several articles on aviation technology…including some from those involved in that project have cited the CCR as one key reason why the project was delayed from successful test flights in the late '60s to production finally starting in the mid-'80s…when the design/technologies were already obsolete. </p>

<p>It’s also a factor in why the PLAAF continued to use the J-6…based on the mid-50’s era MiG-19 as the backbone of their fighter fleet until 2005 and probably why they continued to update the late 50’s era MiG-21 derived J-7 design until a few years ago. </p>

<p>Incidentally, nearly all modern fighter planes were either bought from Russia or copied from it and other nations. In fact, the copying has gotten to the point even Russia has complained its IP’s being ripped off regarding the SU-27/J-11 or more recently, the J-15/SU-33 and J-16/Su-30. </p>

<ul>
<li>A later modded & improved version of this fighter put into production in the mid-'90s was involved in the EP3 incident near Hainan Island in 2001.</li>
</ul>

<p>““That’s not the case as illustrated by PLA military projects such as the J-8…””</p>

<p>Merely quoting one project against a review of the science field in China? :slight_smile: And you have yet to show that humanities fared any better than science during the Cultural Revolution. So far, you don’t have anything to back up what you said, including your claim that Cultural Revolution is a tabooed topic, for which it isn’t as shown in the Grade 8 history lessons in China.</p>

<p>““Incidentally, nearly all modern fighter planes were either bought from Russia or copied from it and other nations…””</p>

<p>This isn’t true again. For example, the J-20 is among the newest indigenous designs from China.</p>

<p>[Chengdu</a> J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment](<a href=“http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-J-XX-Prototype.html]Chengdu”>Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment) </p>

<p>““In fact, the copying has gotten to the point even Russia has complained its IP’s being ripped off regarding the SU-27/J-11 or more recently, the J-15/SU-33 and J-16/Su-30.””</p>

<p>If you were ill-informed enough to believe it, that is your choice. :slight_smile: But the avionics and the weapon packages are mostly Chinese design. And the airframes would take huge amounts of computer simulations and air-tunnel time, that it can’t be as simple as copying your classmates’ homework. :-)</p>

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<p>Actually, I cited 3 examples which have direct bearing on a critical part of any nation’s military, patrolling its own airspace and projecting air power in support of other military services in times of war. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I never made such an argument. Rather, my point was that the CCR was an unmitigated disaster for all scholarly fields…whether its humanities or STEM. What’s more…this isn’t only from reading various historical accounts and examining other sources, but also from relatives who lived through it and had a ringside seat to it as STEM Profs before the CCR. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Let’s see…looks like a close derivative, Mainland Chinese sources said they’re close derivatives, Russia’s publicly complained about the CCP government ripping off their aircraft designs, NATO continues to assign them the same “Flanker” codename… </p>

<p>There’s a saying…if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it’s a…</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Actually, according to several aeronautical engineers…including a couple of older cousins…copying an airframe design to anyone with that background is actually that simple. That is…unless you’re implying Mainland Chinese educated engineers are exceedingly incompetent. </p>

<p>Personally, I find that extremely doubtful considering the fact they were able to design and test fly the J-8 as well as they did considering the CCR conditions in the mid-late '60s. If it wasn’t for the CCR, it would have been a capable interceptor fighter with technological capabilities capable for service in the early '70s and with improvements…into the '80s. </p>

<p>Instead, the CCR was a factor which delayed it to the point production didn’t start until the early-mid '80s…when the design/technologies were already obsolete. Subsequent models which were improvements and modifications made in the '90s and '00s meant that at best…the J-8 project is a technological dinosaur of the 80s…not the '60s. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Hmm…looks like a cross between a Sukhoi PAK FA/T-50 and the USAF’s F-22. </p>

<p>Incidentally, I find it quite interesting that Darryl Block’s main arguments on CCR Science Innovation relies overwhelmingly on news magazine issues that reads more like a polemic propaganda piece as shown by quotes such as “… greatly deflates the arrogance of imperialism, modern re-visionism, and all reactionaries”. Seems more like a Maoist/CCP PR piece from the Stalinist/Maoist “Socialist Realism” school of literary art rather than a reliable source on scientific innovation in that period.</p>

<p>““Actually, I cited 3 examples…””</p>

<p>Merely quoting 3 examples against a review of the entire science field in China during the Cultural Revolution? Would you mind doing any better? :-)</p>

<p>““Rather, my point was that the CCR was an unmitigated disaster for all scholarly fields…whether its humanities or STEM.””</p>

<p>Brock’s review clearly showed that science was a protected field in China during the Cultural Revolution, preferential to other areas such as humanities, in direct opposition to what you said.</p>

<p>“”…but also from relatives who lived through it and had a ringside seat to it as STEM Profs before the CCR.“”</p>

<p>Then I suggest that you stop listening to your relatives and friends because enough other open sources are in stark contradiction with what they said, including their/ your claim that Cultural Revolution is a tabooed topic, for which it isn’t, as shown in the Grade 8 history lessons in China. Did some other posters ever ask you, how come your relatives and friends are always related to the topics you post? Hmmm… :-)</p>

<p>““Let’s see…looks like a close derivative, Mainland Chinese sources said they’re close derivatives,… NATO continues to assign them the same “Flanker” codename.””</p>

<p>You are back-peddling here. :slight_smile: Please read your message # 94 again. You said “copying” which isn’t the same as a “close derivative”.</p>

<p>“”…Russia’s publicly complained about the CCP government ripping off their aircraft designs,“”</p>

<p>Because Russia is frustrated that China can design a better stealth fighter (J-20) than theirs (Pak-Fa) and no longer need Russian assistance in fighters.</p>

<p>““There’s a saying…if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it’s a…””</p>

<p>So you don’t have anything to back up what you said and you just make it up as you go along. :-)</p>

<p>““Actually, according to several aeronautical engineers…including a couple of older cousins…copying an airframe design to anyone with that background is actually that simple…””</p>

<p>So you don’t have anything to back up what you said and you just make it up as you go along, again. I see. :-)</p>

<p>“”…the J-8 project is a technological dinosaur of the 80s…not the '60s.“”</p>

<p>Who cares about the J-8. The J-20 has been flight-testing for almost 2 years.</p>

<p>““Hmm…looks like a cross between a Sukhoi PAK FA/T-50 and the USAF’s F-22.””</p>

<p>Looks like? :slight_smile: It already shows that you are indeed ill-informed. For example, this article was written by Dr. Song, one of the chief architects of the J-20, about how the airframe was designed, based on aerodynamics.</p>

<p>[Research</a> of a Canard-delta High-lift Aerodynamic Layout](<a href=“百度文库”>百度文库)</p>

<p>Or this article where the authors used telemetry to reconstruct the geometry of the J-20 with photos from different angles and calculate the radar-cross-section (the fraction of reflected radar signal) of the J-20.</p>

<p>[A</a> Preliminary Assessment of Specular Radar Cross Section Performance in the Chengdu J-20 Prototype](<a href=“http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-03.html]A”>A Preliminary Assessment of Specular Radar Cross Section Performance in the Chengdu J-20 Prototype)</p>

<p>It is these 2 articles and others on the Internet, which can provide the relevant details for an informed estimate on how dominant the J-20 would be against other fighters.</p>

<p>““Incidentally, I find it quite interesting that Darryl Block’s main arguments on CCR Science Innovation relies overwhelmingly on news magazine issues that reads more like a polemic propaganda piece as shown by quotes such as””</p>

<p>I find Brock’s review more reliable than those, who don’t have anything to back up what they said and just make it up as they go along, especially tagging relatives and friends as sources. :-)</p>

<p>It’s very difficult to have a conversation with defensive people. So I won’t. Example: the long reply that my comments about math instruction being wrong are a bunch of nitpicks that take what I said in the worst possible light. Why? Because of defensiveness. If you’re not open to what another person is saying, you’re merely trying to browbeat. That’s useless. People don’t change their minds because you insist. If you can’t see value in what another person says, then you aren’t expanding your own understanding.</p>

<p>So thanks for your time.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Stillgreen,</p>

<p>That article makes similar arguments as a group of Maoist revisionist scholars who advance them for ideological reasons or in the case of one friend of a friend who is a similarly minded Prof, is also because his experience was solely in the countryside and he didn’t see how viciously intellectuals were persecuted or how they among with many other urbanites…especially those from “bad backgrounds” weren’t “volunteers”…but were forced to go to the countryside. </p>

<p>One thing to note, firsthand sources from individual experiences like my great-aunt/uncle tends to be regarded far more credibly by most scholars specializing in the CCR than publications made by what was an extremely ideologically motivated totalitarian one-party state…like Maoist China. You may as well say that Joseph Goebbels or Baghdad Bob are sole reliable sources when it comes to understanding the true state of their respective societies at the time. </p>

<p>Hate to say it…but as someone who specialized in Chinese history in college and studied the CCR in close detail…Block’s heavy reliance on Beijing Review shows him up on his level of working knowledge of that period and critical use of sources. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The way those Mainland sources were using the term…it’s really a synonym for copying.
What’s more funny is how shameless some of those sources were about it. It’s all about “building up the nation’s technological base”. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Are you seriously expecting a chief architect of such a project to openly admit he’s copied some features from stealth fighter designs of other countries? </p>

<p>Unlike you…I’m at least willing to grant he has enough chutzpah, PR common sense, job security concerns, and intelligence to issue denials or “no comments” when this question comes up.</p>

<p>““One thing to note, firsthand sources from individual experiences like my great-aunt/uncle tends to be regarded far more credibly…””</p>

<p>Cobrat, first thing to note, I can’t be the only poster on CC, who has found that you always quote some relatives and friends in whatever topics you post, way too many times to be coincidental, and acted as if you were connected to some insiders to the topics. Second thing to note, enough open sources are in stark contradiction with your arbitrary stories, that either your relatives and friends are also ill-informed or you are making up the arbitrary stories. Third thing to note, you still don’t realize that you are talking to somebody who has real experiences and direct contacts in China. I already knew your arbitrary stories were shady even before I quoted the open sources. :-)</p>

<p>For example, you were so sure (message # 91) that Cultural Revolution is a tabooed topic in China, routinely quoting your relatives and friends again. But Cultural Revolution is actually taught in Grade 8 history in China (message # 93). How could anyone be so grossly wrong and still claim to have connected to some insiders to Chinese issues? :-)</p>

<p>““Hate to say it…but as someone who specialized in Chinese history in college and studied the CCR in close detail…””</p>

<p>Hate to say it, your messages always read like some class notes, where you fill in the gaps with your arbitrary stories from imaginary relatives and friends. :-)</p>

<p>““Block’s heavy reliance on Beijing Review shows him up on his level of working knowledge of that period and critical use of sources.””</p>

<p>Far better than those, who don’t have anything to back up what they said and just make it up as they go along, like you know who. :-)</p>

<p>““Are you seriously expecting a chief architect of such a project to openly admit he’s copied some features from stealth fighter designs of other countries?””</p>

<p>Am I seriously expecting you to openly admit that you don’t have anything to back up what you said and you just make it up as you go along, again-and-again? :-)</p>

<p>““Unlike you…I’m at least willing to grant he has enough chutzpah,…””</p>

<p>Unlike you, I support my statements with open sources for others to check, instead of making up arbitrary stories with imaginary relatives and friends. :-)</p>

<ol>
<li>The canard-delta aerodynamic layout of the J-20, is fundamentally different from the layout of the US F-22A and the Russian Paf-Fa. (It shows that you are still more ill-informed again.) The canard-delta design was already conceived in the early 1970’s as shown in the J-9 project.</li>
</ol>

<p>This is the J-20, [Chengdu</a> J-20](<a href=“http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__rQoK9r_ycs/TSTgeKAd-ZI/AAAAAAAAAFM/Lvh00XYkSck/s1600/PLA+J-20+匿蹤戰機+(171).jpg]Chengdu”>http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__rQoK9r_ycs/TSTgeKAd-ZI/AAAAAAAAAFM/Lvh00XYkSck/s1600/PLA+J-20+匿蹤戰機+(171).jpg)</p>

<p>And this is the J-9, [Chengdu</a> J-9](<a href=“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/J9VI-IIproject.png/300px-J9VI-IIproject.png]Chengdu”>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/J9VI-IIproject.png/300px-J9VI-IIproject.png)</p>

<ol>
<li>The physics of stealth-shaping was originally formulated by Ufintsev, a Russian. The paper was published in 1971. If you were to insist on using the term “copying”, then the US F-22A copied from the Russians. :-)</li>
</ol>

<p>[METHOD</a> OF EDGE WAVES IN THE PHYSICAL THEORY
OF DIFFRACTION](<a href=“http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0733203]METHOD”>http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0733203)</p>