Student Teaching

Parents Forum
21

<p>"Zooser, so you're saying that your daughters original advisor told her that it would all work out but the one at the end of the year told her it would not."</p>

<p>The departmental advisor was the one who told her it would be fine, but the education advisor told her at the end of the year that there was absolutely no way. One hand not knowing what the other was doing and all that. I think the answer for now is for her to go back to school and meet in depth with the education advisor and plot out Plan B. Of course, she's sicker than a dog again, so who knows.</p>

<p>"I mean couldn't she just get her degree in her specialty and then finish the certification in NY? Or is that too complicated?"
The problem is money. we need her to be employed/able after four years otherwise this is the path I'd tell her to take. It's all so darn confusing.</p>

22

<p>Mother of an English/Secondary Education maor with middle school endorsement plus doing an honors program which requires additional classes and a senior project. And her college requires one in classroom experience each year.</p>

<p>It's doable, but her student teaching semester will be first time she takes less than seventeen credit hours. She has taken a class every spring interim and every summer -- mostly at local junior college. And this is after brining in nine hours of AP credit.</p>

<p>D has a scholarship and there was no way we want to pay full price for a fifth year. We did have to pay full price for one winter interim on-line course through her university -- and it hurt.</p>

<p>Many of her classmates are going an extra semester. If you look through university's course catalog, it suggests interim/summer classes to complete degree in four years.</p>

<p>D also worked full time during breaks and summer when taking classes. She planned it so she was taking less demanding classes at this time. And she does admit that some of her education classes were less demanding, so taking 17/18 credit hours a semester was not as taxing as it sounds.</p>

23

<p>"She has taken a class every spring interim and every summer -- mostly at local junior college. "</p>

<p>Oooh. This is a good idea. Is it widely acceptable?</p>

<p>I'd just like to ask why it is that teachers are looked down upon. I really don't get it. In many places, they have to have the certification and a master's on top of a regular bachelor's degree.</p>

24

<p>Regarding taking classes at the local community college over the summer, I only know what my D's university requires. There is some sort of form the students have to submit which requires noting the course they want to take and what required university class it is a substitute for. Both her advirsor and the college dean has to sign off. The University is very clear that students must have approval (via signed form) to receive credit for class.</p>

<p>As D attends a regional private university, they are quite familiar with offerings at most community colleges in state. I think they have lists of courses from the community colleges along with their university equivalents, though students still have to have prior approval even if equivalent local community college course is on one of the lists.</p>

<p>Obviously, taking community college courses is only option for 100 and 200 level classes, but it helped lots with fitting in gen ed requirements.</p>

25

<p>This is a lot to figure out from home base. I'm wondering if there's a credentialing advisor available to go over this with you. If you're in NY, try googling up NYSUT and look for OTI (if I recall correctly): Office of Teaching Initiatives -- something like that. Sometimes NYSUT has local representatives in person, or state spokespeople by phone, who can lay out what are the course requirements for certification. This might help you figure out the courses required. Or find out if there's one person on your D's faculty who is in charge of the end-stage certification process, or supervises the student teachers in the field. She might be able to point you to a helpful person. It's really a shame this isn't spelled out better for "pre-service" teachers. It's not rocket science.</p>

<p>You might even go to the younger sister's school to ask who is the building;s teacher union representative. That person might be able to point you to someone helpful in the region or state. If you were not fond of unions before, you'll see how they might help thread the needle on all the bureaucratic stickiness that is as much a part of teaching as hugs from the kids. Both are abundant!! </p>

<p>It only becomes easier when she's actually in a school building someday and can go ask other colleagues for all these technical pieces of advice. I wish I could help more.</p>

26

<p>I think it's also complicated by the fact that each state has it's own criteria for certification and schools tend to just get you certified for the state where they are located. Some states use the Praxis test, some don't. Many of the states require different praxis tests or require different test scores.</p>

27

<p>I was an Ed major in college many years ago who did everything but student teach. At that time (private univ), the local school district did not allow student teachers to teach any clase more than two consecutive weeks, the state only required 8 wks student teaching, and I was "losing" the whole semester. It required an immense amount of planning, overloads previous semesters, taking classes in the summer, credit from CLEP, to get it all into 4 years. </p>

<p>S1 did everything but student teaching and the course prior, and things haven't changed a huge amount. It would have taken him 5 1/2 yrs. to complete major requirements and ed requirements. Basically, nothing else happens during student teaching, although maybe it would be possible to take a night class. Some institutions require some kind of evening seminar where student teachers can discuss their experiences. Many schools require more than just one observation per semester. We have faculty who are continually "on the road" visiting student teachers in their classes.</p>

<p>That said, the requirements/experiences are VERY uneven around the country.<br>
Accreditation agencies and some states are trying to improve the quality and control of education training, and some institutions have officially gone to a 5 year program. 4 years to get a bachelor's degree in a subject area, plus a one year (or more) intensive education program leading to certification and sometimes a master's. </p>

<p>The whole system is a mish mash that may produce excellent teachers here and there. Unfortunately, I think most great teachers become so by accident or on their own.</p>

28

<p>This might be a dumb question but is it not possible to take more than four classes per semester? Is it sequenced so she can't do that for some reason? S1 has taken 18-19 hours every semester in order to be able to complete his major plus NROTC and all it's extra required courses (which are many) in four years. He is doing an online class this summer.</p>

29

<p>"This might be a dumb question but is it not possible to take more than four classes per semester"</p>

<p>Only if you pay per credit for the extra classes and we can't really do that, unfortunately. That's the problem. Seemed like $40,000 should be enough, but apparently it isn't. She's going to meet with the education advisor in a couple of weeks (as soon as she's back on her feet), and then perhaps all things will become clear.</p>

<p>Tango, did you/your son actually become teachers? Does it make sense to you to do all but the student teaching and then do that as part of the master's? (Sorry if this is a dumb question.)</p>

30

<p>oh, I see. S1 goes to a State U. so it works differently.</p>

31

<p>Zoosermom - she should meet with the people at CUNY as soon as possible. She might be employable, but not as a certified teacher, at the end of 4 years without doing student teaching - I'm thinking teachers aide, etc, something to earn her a little money so that she can do student teaching in NY. The requirements between Penn and NY are bound to be different, almost every state is a little different, and it is possible that her major might fly in NY, depends on how much will transfer at the end of 4 years, and how badly teachers are needed. The other point is as badly as you need her employed, she will almost absolutely need her Masters if teaching is her career. She might be able to do only one semester at CUNY for student teaching, and get a start on her Masters at one time.
Good luck, when my DH went back for his certificate, it took twice as long as necessary because of some stupid requirements of the school, not the state.</p>

32

<p>Zoosermom,
This doesn't really apply to your original question about how to get it all done in four years, but I'm just thinking about possible future economic implications. I don't know for sure how placement on the salary schedule works in your state, but I'm certified in four different states and a federal school system, and they all work this way. In addition to steps for each year of experience, teachers are also placed in a pay band based on number of credits earned post BA and post master's degree up to the PhD. Generally the bands are in 15 credit increments, and in the systems I've worked in, each sideways move on the chart (for being in the next credit-based pay band) is worth between $2000-3500. </p>

<p>What this might mean for your daughter (assuming it works the same way in your state) is that if she can do the bare minimum to complete her bachelor's degree in history and then take any needed additional coursework for certification (including student teaching) after that (and perhaps in a much cheaper good public institution), her starting pay will be higher, and she will have the benefit of that additional salary every year she works until she reaches the salary cap at the highest level of the schedule.</p>

<p>I don't know where your daughter is.....would her school accept transfer coursework if she were to pick up a course or two during summers at home from a CUNY/SUNY? </p>

<p>One other thought--does your daughter's program require a minor? If so, it would be good to try to turn that into a second area of certification, as that would likely help her out when she is applying for positions.</p>

33

<p>"I don't know where your daughter is.....would her school accept transfer coursework if she were to pick up a course or two during summers at home from a CUNY/SUNY? </p>

<p>One other thought--does your daughter's program require a minor? If so, it would be good to try to turn that into a second area of certification, as that would likely help her out when she is applying for positions."</p>

<p>Thank you for taking the time to post and explain. Very helpful. I got the idea here on this thread to have her take a couple of classes at CUNY. If that can be done it might solve the problem. As soon as she's well enough she's going to go back to school and talk with the actual education advisor. This will definitely be on her list of questions. She's not required to do a major, but there are a lot of core classes, which is part of the problem. We didn't realize the impact of lots of required classes. I can completely understand what Cangel's referring to.</p>

34

<p>Zoosermom,</p>

<p>My stint observing the class in which I was to student teach the semester before I was to be there (a jr. hs), made me realize that K-12 teaching was not for me. I then went on to become college professor, and at the 2 institutions where I taught, I was responsible for the teaching methods course in my discipline. I taught teachers (very well, I might add), but I was not certified to go into the h.s. classroom myself. </p>

<p>S1 did not get his certification. He loves his discpline and got glowing recommendations from those for whom he was a teacher's aide, but could not get through the methods class (generic, not discipline specific--meaning that he never got to teach a lesson in his subject--kind of mindboggling) with a high enough grade to qualify for student teaching. I would also like to add that he never saw an actual professor for teaching methods. Both lecture and smaller labs were taught by TAs--something I find outrageous if the institution wants to train highly qualified teachers. I later discovered that there are too many student teaching candidates for the number of placements available locally, so passing is not just a function of how you do in the class, but whether they can place you somewhere, something which also varies by discipline.</p>

<p>It is important to truly investigate the quality of the any teacher ed program. Some questions to ask:
Who teaches the teaching methods course?
How many hours are required in the discipline (depending on the state requirement, some universities require more--personally I think 30 sem. hrs. is important)?
Is there a discipline specific teaching methods course (ie. just for music majors, foreign language majors, math majors, etc.)? If not, beware. If there is it may or may not be in addition to a generic course.
Is there a course that deals with real-world issues in the school? (ie. how much time is spent on non-teaching activities, what is expected of the teacher beyond the school day, how to deal with unsupportive administrators in difficult circumstances like with unhappy parents, discipline problems, professional development, etc., how to deal with other school staff)
What are the circumstances surrounding student teacher placement (are the mentoring teachers really qualified?)
How often is the student teacher observed (it should definitely be more than once)?
Is there a discussion course that accompanies student teaching where student teachers can discuss their experiences/problems?
What is the reputation of the local college of education among the practicing teachers in the area?</p>

<p>These are just a few that come to mind. I've found the LACs generally offer better programs that large universities, but there are exceptions to that, too. The good programs are generally very good, while the bad ones are very, very bad.</p>

<p>BTW, S1 is now in grad school.</p>

35

<p>tango, You've brought up some great pointers for parents and students that are looking for colleges but Zoosermom's daughter is already in college. I can tell you that it has a very good reputation as an LAC in this area, especially for teachers.</p>

36

<p>ZM, I wish I could offer some help, but I can't. I did want to add, though, that the students in my state who attend teaching programs are advised that they will need an extra semester ... for which they will have to pay ... to do student teaching. During that time, they are unable to make money in the district (as in ... they cannot sub). In other words, they get to teach for free & pay the college for that privilege. At that point, most students move back home if they can get a job near their parents ... or they go into a ridiculous amount of debt.</p>

<p>I know this isn't a help for you. I just offer it to let you know that your D's situation is not uncommon. The fact that she was not told that it would happen is wrong, though, in my book. She should have been advised accordingly.</p>

37

<p>zoosermom,</p>

<p>If D is thinking about doing an education program at CUNY the good thing is that she will be ready to work upon graduation if she majors in secondary education. If she is looking to transfer for the fall, the one up side is that all of her credits should make a clean transfer and she would not lose any credits. She could find out if she takes courses at your local CC or CUNY over the summer if she would be able to transfer them over and they would count toward her degree.</p>

<p>The will submit her paperwork to the state before she when she is ready to graduate, streamlining the process if she had to do the process on her own. She will go to the department of ed to get fingerprinted (which she could do at anytime well before senior year to avoid the crunch). Also they will make sure that she has taken the LAST, ATWS and the content specialty test (all which must be done before she can work for the NYC doe).</p>

<p>
[quote]
As of May 2008, starting teacher salaries range from $45,530 (bachelor’s degree, no prior teaching experience) to $74,796 (master’s degree, 8 years teaching experience). Teachers who already have a master’s degree but no teaching experience will start at $51,425.</p>

<p>Salary</a>, Salary, Salary & Benefits, Teach NYC, New York City Department of Education</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>for example: if she were to major in History at CSI and were looking to be certified in secondary education as a social studies teacher (7-12) she would to the following:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Adolescence Education Sequence: 24 Credits
Students wishing to be recommended by the College for certification must
successfully complete the Adolescence Education sequence courses, as well
as their academic major. The sequence may be begun in the sophomore
year. To complete the sequence in two years it must be begun by the
beginning of the junior year. Students must have a minimum cumulative
average of 2.75 to be admitted to all adolescence education courses. Please
refer to the Education/Adolescence Education section of the Catalog for the
Adolescence Education sequence course listing.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.csi.cuny.edu/catalog/pdfs/FINAL2007-2009%20Catalog.pdf#offerings_history%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.csi.cuny.edu/catalog/pdfs/FINAL2007-2009%20Catalog.pdf#offerings_history&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In addition to completing the pre-major and major requirements in Option
I above, students wishing to be recommended by the College for teacher
certification must complete the following sequence of education courses for
24 credits:
EDS 201 Social Foundations of Secondary Education 4 credits
EDS 202 Psychological Foundations of Secondary Education 4 credits
EDS The Teaching of Secondary School Curriculum in History 4 credits
EDS 307 Discovery Learning and Interdisciplinary Instruction 4 credits
EDS 400 Student Teaching in Secondary Education 6 credits
EDS 401 Reflection and Analysis in Student Teaching in Secondary Education 2 credits</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Even if she were to complete her degree at her current school with out doing the ed track, she has at least 2 options:</p>

<p>She could apply for a postion through the Fellows program at the NYC doe and if selected for the fellows program they would pay for her masters.</p>

<p>
[quote]
</p>

<p>In order to be eligible for the program, applicants must</p>

<p>Have been awarded a Bachelor's degree with a minimum GPA of 3.0 (consideration given for demonstrated achievement). An applicant's Bachelor's degree must be conferred by June 15, 2008 for the June 2008 program. (Please note: if you received a Bachelor's degree from a non-U.S. university, you will need to have your transcripts evaluated by a foreign education translation service.) </p>

<p>Have U.S. citizenship, or permanent residency with a valid green card, and fluency in English.</p>

<p>Not have previously benefited from a NYC Department of Education tuition assistance program (other than career training for paraprofessionals). </p>

<p>Not have previously received an Unsatisfactory rating from the NYC Department of Education. </p>

<p>Not have completed eighteen or more college credits in teacher education or a minor in education before beginning training with NYCTF. </p>

<p>Not be certified to teach.* </p>

<p>Not have worked as a regular, full-time teacher in a New York City public school at any time since September 2002. </p>

<p>Not have previously withdrawn from the Fellowship after beginning training.</p>

<p>NYCTF</a> - Home - Home Page

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Or she would just go to grad school and get her masters in secondary education (she would just take the track for students who are not currently teaching).</p>

38

<p>p.s.</p>

<p>If zoosergirl still wants to stay on the science track, as you know there is a shortage of science and math teachers in the city. She could apply to the fellows program after graduation through the science immerson program:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Science Immersion Program</p>

<p>New York City schools have an especially high need for qualified science teachers. To address this need, the Fellowship will begin offering Science Immersion an option for Fellows who are interested in teaching science. This program will help individuals who have an academic background in science but who did not major in a science to gain certification in that area.</p>

<p>Eligibility for the Science Immersion program is determined on a case-by-case basis; to meet minimum criteria, you must have successfully completed at least eighteen credits in science (e.g., biology, chemistry, earth science, physics, etc.). Each Science Immersion Fellow will be required to pass the Content Specialty Test (CST) in the specific science s/he is assigned to teach.</p>

<p>Enter the classroom as a Science Immersion Fellow.</p>

<p>Due to the success of NYCTF’s Math Immersion program, the Fellowship launched the Science Immersion program in June 2006 and immediately provided highly qualified teachers for the classrooms that needed science teachers most. </p>

<p>The Science Immersion program was developed to provide high quality science teachers to New York’s public schools. Science Immersion provides select Teaching Fellows, who have strong science content knowledge but no major, with the conceptual background and practical training needed to excel as a teacher. </p>

<p>June Science Immersion Fellows will participate in two extra weeks of training before the regular pre-service training begins for all Fellows. Immersion training immediately precedes the Fellowship’s pre-service training, and during this time, Science Immersion Fellows will be engaged in an intensive review of scientific concepts and theories. The training will also include university coursework and test preparation. Science Immersion Fellows receive an additional $1000 stipend to offset expenses, in addition to the standard stipend that all Fellows receive during pre-service training. Please note: Midyear Science Immersion Fellows do not take part in the extra two weeks of training or receive additional stipend pay.</p>

<p>Want more information?</p>

<p>If you would like more information on teaching science as part of the NYC Teaching Fellows program, there are several ways to get more information so that you can make the most informed decision. </p>

<p>Our Website: You should make sure that you read through our website carefully. Yes, there is a lot of information here, but it’s there because it’s important for you to know. Be sure to check out the videos on this page to hear firsthand from Fellows about their experiences.</p>

<p>Information Sessions: Current NYC Teaching Fellows and representatives of the program hold information sessions throughout the city and region. Some information sessions are math-specific. Attending a session is a great way to learn more about the program, ask questions, and hear from a current math Fellow. </p>

<p>NYCTF</a> - Who Can Be a Fellow - Science Immersion</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

39

<p>DS started out as an education track history major. You have to have a subject major and can also enroll in education classes. When you are in the program your classes from day one are very structured and heavy. There was little room for electives. Part of the structure included the student teaching. The heavy load got all the required classes in before then. An education adviser is important to make sure they can get everything done. Unfortunately, with a program growing faster than they could accommodate, when he could not get the required classes in he fell behind. It would have required summer classes or an extra term to make it up. But fortunately, his program required a practicum at the end of freshman year where they shadowed and helped a teacher in their subject. He found out he could not stand teaching HS so dropped the education program.</p>