Pray, do tell!
But there are nuances that GCs may not be fully aware of. For example D18 applied to Princeton REA but also had to apply early to other audition-based dance programs, including privates like Fordham. That was allowed by the terms of REA (because these programs have no regular decision application round - they need to prescreen in December to schedule auditions in January). But the GC had no idea about any of that (in a public school where they each have ~100 seniors to deal with) and just submitted what we asked them to.
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Yep. I know someone who wrote all her daughter’s college essays and filled out her applications as well. She then proudly boasted her daughter’s acceptance to a prestigious school on social media with the caption “She did this the old fashioned way. Hard work and good grades”
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And in many, probably most HSs, GCs aren’t ‘approving’ where students apply (I know that’s a thing at some private HSs). Beyond signing ED contracts, GCs are in the dark. It’s often an admin that is sending out transcripts and school profiles. GCs don’t know of admission decisions either, unless the students tell them.
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Noting the distinctions in the NYT article and how they hinge on an acceptance of an ED offer, I’m reminded of a situation shared yesterday on a popular Facebook group for parents of college-bound students.
The student applied ED and was accepted at a top school. She also had two EA acceptances in hand. The family accepted the offer and paid the deposit to “hold the seat” at the ED school. They had not notified the EA schools of this. In addition, a parent was on Facebook soliciting advice on additional schools her daughter should apply to in the RD round, hoping to get better opportunities for merit.
While there were many replies pointing out the problem with this, there were plenty of posters suggesting schools for RD. The point is, there seem to be plenty of people who don’t understand ED or don’t see the problem with breaking the agreement.
Agree with all your points!
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There are two different issues here, although inextricably bound in this example.
Issue 1: Can a school require you to fulfill an ED commitment? The answer is no, not legally and not practically.
Issue 2: Can a school terminate a student’s enrollment for unethical behavior, specifically, lying on the attestation that they have no other commitments to another school? The answer is yes, and has it happened, the answer is yes again.
The risk in this case is not from Vanderbilt, where the student broached what is, in the end, an unenforceable agreement to attend. The risk is from Harvard, which if it discovers this behavior, has in the past and can very well the future dismiss the student. It is a very big deal to lie on one’s application and during the admissions process, and the consequences are not necessarily legal but in the area where schools have full discretion.
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Another example of ethically questionable behavior:
Another kid we know got accepted ED into a prestigious college mid-December. She has a few EA apps out there, one of which is expected to announce decisions next week. Her ED school requires her to withdraw from other schools by Jan 15th. She hasn’t done so yet because she wants to hear from these other schools (especially the one announcing next week) and says she isn’t violating anything because she has until the 15th.
She says she intends to go to the ED school and will withdraw other apps by the 15th, but even so, by not withdrawing promptly, she’s going to take away seats from other applicants.
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Let me also add that making your way past graduation is no protection either, because Harvard reserves the right to rescind degrees for serious unethical acts during the admissions process or during one’s undergraduate years. Has that happened? Yes.
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It just goes to show you that the prestige or bust mentality is making people behave like lunatics. If you have the mindset that only 50 or so colleges in this country are worth attending, of course you can justify all kinds of behavior to yourself. Of course, I’m going to guess that most of this stuff is happening in well to do communities where parents put a premium on name. It’s one of the reasons I don’t like ED - it’s most likely to be used to advantage by kids who are already advantaged - sure, lower SES kids can ED to schools where they might get generous financial aid, but how many are savvy enough (or have family savvy enough) to navigate this stuff by themselves?
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My kid has a couple of classmates who got in ED to a prestigious university. They also applied EA to my kid’s first choice . He asked me if their other apps would be automatically withdrawn . I said “no” and we just have to hope they do the right thing and are not going “trophy hunting” . But the apples don’t fall far from the tree, and many of the parents love to brag about all the places their kid got in. I kept my doubts to myself. We try our best to teach our kids to do the right thing but there is a not insignificant number of people out there with a “me first at all costs” attitude.
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Just to give a public school perspective on this conversation. My daughter has had four counselors in 4 years at a very good and large public Midwest high school where many of the students are upper middle class. I remember with a sigh that freshman orientation -where they talked about how she would have the same counselor throughout high school. Not even close! Her counselor last year was only at the high school one day a week (was part time at high school
with two other part time district roles) and just getting basic questions answered last year was a huge struggle. She left the guidance office twice in tears because her counselor was nonresponsive to emails and rarely there. Staff in the office basically said you can only talk to your assigned counselor, we can’t/won’t help you. And were not very nice about it. They had a lot of other stress at the time, and kids doing “great” didn’t get much help or advice about anything. What we learned about college admissions, we learned online, from other parents, from presentations at college tours, from college admissions staff, from friends, from a free webinar, etc.
Her counselor this year has been nice and more helpful, but has a huge caseload of students. I’m kind of chuckling reading this post, my daughter has never had any conversations or help about where to apply etc. and she is one of the top students in the class of over 500 students. I doubt her guidance counselor has any idea where she has applied unless she looks at where her transcripts have been sent-- that is an automated process that my daughter does online.
I will say this. I ignored advice from a friend to get he expensive ACT tutoring etc. I bought a huge chunky book from Amazon where she could take practice tests a section at time if she only could find an hour here or there in her crazy schedule. In a few months her score went from a a 28 the first try with little prep to a 34. Something to be said for doing test prep the old fashioned/dinosaur/inexpensive way!
She has a few good friends who applied early decision to very competitive schools and got in and will be attending. Common thought process around here is very simple - that you only apply Early Decision if you are OK with full pay, and it’s a just another mechanism for kids from the wealthiest families (or grandparents with deep pockets etc) to get a better chance of admission at those schools than other kids. No one else that I am aware of does ED around here.
She has friends at some of the top private high schools in our are, and the college admissions process, years of in-school standardized test prep etc. is a completely different world and set of advantages and opportunities.
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My S22 applied ED to excellent college and got accepted. We have paid the deposit and he is going there in the fall. Would he have gotten in without the ED bump? Given his grades and the rigor of his classes, yada yada., he had a good chance. But he wanted to maximized his opportunity and I had run the NPC multiple times to make sure we could (barely) afford it, so he went the ED route.
That said, I think ED is a scam that gives WAY too much power to colleges and takes away important options for seventeen-year-olds who are still figuring our who they are and what they want. The system is rigged in favor of elite colleges and I just don’t get the moral panic around folks trying to get an edge. To be clear, my son did not apply anywhere else or try to get into a “better” option. But as colleges increasingly use ED to admit a higher percentage of (not-any-more-qualified-than-regular-decision) students, families are going to rationally decide to manipulate this broken system. And maybe that will help it all come crashing down. I think that is a good thing.
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If she applied to any colleges that use SRAR* instead of transcripts on application, those colleges would not be visible to the counselor through looking at where transcripts were sent.
*Self Reported Academic Record, to be verified by final high school transcript if the student is admitted and matriculates.
Moral panic? It’s breaking the rules. It’s 100% cheating to reneg on a binding agreement without compelling extenuating circumstances. Holding out for other schools is NOT a compelling extenuating circumstance. No one forces a student to apply ED to an expensive elite college. Wow.
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This reads like problems of the upper crust. A GC calling you at home and talking for an hour about a kid’s college choices? Kids who already hit the life lottery playing the college system and not seeing anything wrong with it? Shocking.
Obviously I’m generalizing, but this isn’t happening at our local high school.
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Curious why these schools give ED applicants a month to accept and give the deposit? Seems like they’re sending a mixed message of sorts. What not require acceptance within 4 days or a week?
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I think the whole system is broken and cheating is part of the equation now.
My family would not do it - did not do it - but I understand it. ED puts the power is so firmly on the side of the colleges. People are looking for way to push back on that.
It just seems weird to me to see so many folks defend a system that helps colleges but hurts teenagers and their families. It feels like 100% cheating to have a system that benefits one side so clearly over another. Even if the stories swirling around about folks cheating the system are isolated anecdotes rather than an emerging pattern, they get at the basic unfairness of the whole ED process. They feel of a piece with the more prevalent stories about great stat kids getting shut out of elite colleges in RD.
But I get that CC doesn’t want arguing, and it’s already weird to seem like I’m defending folks who break the rules (again to be clear, I think the behavior is wrong, but I don’t get the outrage over it), so I’ll stop there.
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My kids’ GC had no idea where they applied and no idea where they attended. If a student wanted a transcript sent to a non-Florida public school (those did go electronically), they ordered it from the guidance office, paid $2, it came in a sealed envelop and the student addressed it and put a stamp on it to the school (or included it with the application). I ordered 5 for each of my kids and they could send them anywhere they wanted. GCs offered no guidance at all, no suggestions, no reminders of deadlines. I guess if either had applied ED to a school the GC would have had to sign the agreement (but neither did).
The only way the ED acceptance would have any teeth is if the OTHER schools asked if they had been accepted anywhere ED and the student would then have to say Yes, but we couldn’t afford it. The new schools would then be able to decide if paying Harvard was a better (more affordable) option than paying Vandy (in the example used above). If the schools aren’t going to enforce it, then the agreement has no consequences and people are going to continue to try the ED route to get a better chance, but then go where they want to.
As others have said, the ED schools let the parents make the decision on whether the ED school offer is affordable.
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In our SF Bay Area public school there are MANY kids that apply ED. Most end up going if they are accepted. There are cases where the students do not pull out of their UC apps after being accepted and depositing to an ED school, and on occasion ending up at Berkeley after depositing at Vandy, for example. The kid that I knew personally that pulled this maneuver quoted mental health problems and wanting to be closer to home. I can’t attest to the existence or not of mental health problems but they would not have attended SJState to be closer to home. Our school guidance counselors have no idea what the kids are doing, there’s one counselor per 300 kids approximately.
ED is not my cup of tea. For kids with an 100% clear first choice and a family able and willing to afford it, it’s a perfect option.