Okay. Maybe ya’ll are right. Jokes are the way to go. I just need a sense of humor. I have no problem laughing at myself or with others laughing at me.
While I am happy to be a joke, I don’t think racism should be. jmho.
By listing the academic stats profile you suggest there is a correlation between academic performance and racism.
@alh No one on this post is saying racism is a joke. My original post wasn’t directed at you specifically and I began writing it before your post was posted. This is a forum where people can post their opinions freely as long as they remain respectful . There will always be differing opinions , and if you read my post closely , you’ll realize that we agree on the main issues.
Tonymom,
That is a completely strawman argument. No need to read into something that isn’t there, and then engage in namecalling.
The REALITY, whether you like it or not, is that this is a school with an 80% admission rate and student stats that are low average to average. These are not rocket scientists. Racism can be found everywhere. It’s intellectually independent.
We will have to agree to disagree…
@carolinamom2boys -
Looks like your wish in #62 was granted!
@jym626 Let me clarify the meaning of that post. I was taking every opportunity to beat a horse and derail a thread . That was not directed at any other poster. If I have a comment about a post I will address the poster directly by name. Any posts that are not addressed are generic posts and not directed to anyone specific . There seemed to be some confusion regarding one of my earlier posts that I was making fun of another poster which was not what was happening.
I was referencing the subsequent posts that seem to have derailed the thread. Almost looks like someone brought in a ringer!!
And yes, tonymom, we will agree to disagree. The fact is, on a site dedicated to college stats, student scores and such, providing them is not unreasonable.
Andcarolinamom2boys,
post #s don’t align anymore, so the comment about your wish being granted no longer corresponds to post# 62. Its a little confusing.
MODERATOR’S NOTE
And therefore, there should be no further back and forth on this subject here. PM one another if necessary. Members are entitled to respectfully express their opinions, but should do so realizing that it is unlikely that you will change someone else’s mind, so once that horse is dead, stop beating it.
Following up on a portion of my first post on this thread:
Would anyone…especially attorneys and legal scholars discuss whether the suspended cadets can fight their punishments on free speech grounds considering the Citadel is a state funded public institution?
People on previous threads have argued that even private colleges shouldn’t be suspending students for making suspected or admitted racist or uncivil/insensitive online postings on “free speech” grounds even though the First Amendment doesn’t legally apply to them.
Wonder how the arguments could apply/not apply here…especially considering the Citadel is a public institution funded and run by the state of South Carolina.
Sounds like they violated the code of conduct http://www.citadel.edu/root/citadel-traditions/the-citadel-code
Here are their rules. Lots to read. http://www.citadel.edu/root/images/commandant/blue-book.pdf
@cobrat. Excellent question. Certainly if this was a regular ( non military ) school, the students would have an excellent basis on which to fight the suspension on First Amendment grounds. I don’t know whether it’s status as a military academy changes that. Actual Military personnel do give up some of their rights. Someone with a more detailed knowledge of the Constitutional issues when military academies are involved needs to weigh in.
I know however @jym626 that it is IRRELEVANT that the Citadels code of conduct is violated in assessing whether disciplining students is Constitutional. The Us Supreme Court has made it clear that a school code can’t trump the Constitution. See. Papish v. Board of Curators of University of Missouri, 410 U.S. 667 (1973).
The Citadels code seems to say that students are to “revere God” Clearly that portion is unconstitutional if that were required even as to actual military personnel and any attempt to kick out a student who espoused atheism or made blasphemous remarks would be improper even though they student was"violating the code of conduct"
Having no skin in this game this is not a discussion worth pursuing, but it might be worth reading the blue book document that discusses what happens if a cadet violates regulations, if this might be seen as a form of hazing. And you don’t need to YELL, maya.
No one needs to weigh in. The system will work this out on its own.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that institutions are not allowed to set standards of conduct for their students (or whomever).
@maya54 The Citadel is a military college, not a military service academy . They are not military personnel. It is a state school.
The Citadel is a state run publicly funded military-oriented college. However, I’m not so sure the students are considered official military personnel as students attending the FSAs.
While nearly all Citadel students are required to join the corps of cadets and enroll in ROTC training of their choice with the exception of a few who are exempted for some special reasons, they aren’t required to join the military after graduation as students at FSAs or students who received ROTC scholarship money/enrolled as ROTC cadets for the last 2 years of undergrad at other colleges*.
And a large percentage of Citadel graduates end up not joining the military/accepting commissions after graduation. Instead, they go into the civilian workplace/attend grad school like graduates from civilian colleges.
- Unless the military/federal government chooses to release them from their service obligation at their complete discretion based on the needs of that particular service.
True. However, several have argued on other threads that public colleges’ codes of conduct are, by virtue of being part of some level of government, legally subjected to constraints due to First-Amendment considerations as opposed to private colleges.
Am interested in seeing how such factors apply to the Citadel…especially from attorneys or legal scholars.
“especially attorneys and legal scholars discuss whether the suspended cadets can fight their punishments on free speech grounds considering the Citadel is a state funded public institution?”
Sure they can. But I don’t know enough about the law in that circuit to say how good their chances are. If their names are not currently public, it might be unwise to sue, even if they have a claim. Speaking from experience, I’d say they have a reasonable chance of being able to transfer to comparable colleges if their academic records are OK. But having their names attached to that image forever would be bad news.
@romanigypsyeyes Actually freedom of speech does limit the standards of conduct that PUBLIC ( (excluding issues re military academies and ROTC members) universities can set for their students. They can’t say “You can’t say anything negative about different racial groups”. The First Amemdment protects even hate speech. See the US Supreme Court case in RAV V City of St Paul.
@carolinamom2boys. What I don’t know is if ROTC service ( which appears required) somehow allows a limitation on constitutional rights. I really don’t know ennough about the affiliation with the military or how this legally works.
@jym626 Sorry. I wasn’t yelling. Single word Caps are a substitute for bolding for emphasis for me. As an attorney interested in First Amendment issues this is a fascinating discussion.
One question I’d have is that even given those requirements is whether cadets at the Citadel are considered military personnel in the same way ROTC cadets in their last 2 years of undergrad in civilian colleges or those who accepted ROTC scholarships considering Citadel graduating seniors are under no obligation as stated on their website to accept a commission or otherwise under any military service obligation upon graduation?
There’s a difference as the other two categories of ROTC cadets I cited above usually DO have an obligation to accept commissions and complete some years of military service after graduation.