Suddenly Many Colleges are Elite-Boston Globe article

Parents Forum
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<p>Windy,</p>

<p>While much of what you say is true there is also another component. Do the "elite" school, however you define that, actually produce a better outcome or did the student have that capability going in. Since many of the elite schools have excellent students going in was there much they had to do for those students to succeed?</p>

<p>Not everyone agrees with this perspective but I think the Krueger and Dale study is an interesting approach to the value add of education provided by all schools. In case you have not seen much on that study here is a reference:</p>

<p><a href="http://69.57.157.207/issues/2.7.00/ivies.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://69.57.157.207/issues/2.7.00/ivies.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>eagle 79
excellent points...thanks for the link...I think there is a bigger concern for schools that are not in the top 20 USWNR, combined listing, say the top 3 LAC's and the top 17 Universities. How is the character of say a Bucknell or a BC going to change when suddenly they admit 20 more students with 1580 sat's and 4.6 weighed GPA's, 10 ap's, and off the chart ec's than in prior years. Students who in the past who would have blended in at Harvard or Williams. It is entirely possible that these "elite" students will dominate the best opportunites at these schools. They still will want to attend the same quality of grad school that they would have, had as in a normal year they had been accepted to an elite school, but now they will do it from they school they got into. I think it is a be carefull for you wish for scenario at schools wishing to enhance their prestige. Look at the honors programs at flagship states, they offer merit rides to kids who could afford to pay in order to "obtain" these students that might have gone to "loftier schools" these kids then absorb the best situations that in the past might have been distributed in a more democratic way. You are right the better outcome will go to those with more capability going in. But for the traditional student that these institutions have served in the past the opportunities may in fact diminish.</p>

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<p>I think that your last paragraph is the key. I think meeting & interviewing & checking a person's record/past is a better way to determine if you have a character component there than looking at the institutional name on the diploma. Quote from Epiphany.</p>

<p>Fair point. Let me extrapolate a little bit. I did not mean to imply that going to and having a Jesuit education guarantees character or that kids with that pedigree will necessarily be of higher integrity. It all depends on the person. BC, Georgetown, Fordham, Holy Cross, etc all admit jerks and crooks just like Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Iowa State.</p>

<p>But there IS a culture on every campus and hopefully that culture rubs off on the kids. And some schools emphasize character and ethics (personal and business) and some do not.</p>

<p>Do I have a bias? Yes. Am I possibly wrong? Yep.</p>

<p>But I will take my chances.</p>

<p>Not saying that Ivy Leaguers or non sectarian secular schools cant produce people of HIGH moral character and business ethics. They do. Every day. But the "ethos" of one school is not the "ethos" of another. And for purposes of college selection, college applications and otherwise nervous parents searching for the best college for their kids...I merely suggested that looking at that "ethos" was a step in the right direction towards a good "fit" for the kid and the college.</p>

<p>Or better said that that the admissions offices often DONT practice what they preach.</p>

<p>Let us step back and examine the whole "elite" status thing. What is it about the college that makes them want to have that "elite" status? What is their mission? What is it about parents and students that want to go to that particular college? Is it REALLY about a better education (as if they can determine that simply from avg. SAT scores or glitzy ad campaigns?) or is it about "status" and "bragging rights at the country club (or grocery store?)</p>

<p>I am more concerned my Kids are HAPPY, CONTENT, DO WELL, and are SAFE, SATISFIED, and SERIOUS about the task at hand, than I am about "prestige".</p>

<p>True, if my D had a 2400 SAT and a 5.0 qpa, we would be talking to Harvard....but would she ultimately go there? Not likely. Its not a good fit.</p>

<p>Where did my daughter choose to accept (among SEVERAL opportunities, including scholarships)? A northeastern private college that was a good fit for her....academically, socially, emotionally, financially, etc.</p>

<p>Was that the ONLY place she would have fit in? OF course not.</p>

<p>But there were some NAME colleges in the "elite" rankings she was qualified for and would NOT fit in......once we looked behind the glossy printouts and letters and rankings....we found out about the "real ethos" of kids in those places...and decided....not likely a good fit for ME. (might be for YOU or your friends...and we say, "Great! Good luck!")</p>

<p>I would NEVER deign to criticize the education at Williams, or Emory, or Harvard or Swarthmore or Bowdoin.....or Middlebury. All outstanding schools. Not for everyone. </p>

<p>But like someone said on another thread on CC..."I am at Harvard. I am miserable. I study 12 hours a day and manage only C's. I work, work, work. I never have fun. I hate my life. I wish I had gone to (big state school) with my buddies and been balanced and happy." enough said.</p>

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<p>This year in particular when many many students did not get into their first choice schools there is a ground swell of efforts to enhance the prestige of lesser regarded schools and attempt to diminish the Ivies and the Little Ivies, if it makes one feel better to do that...it is a free country...but it does not make it true and some of us object." Quote from windy.</p>

<p>Well...while your post ostensibly responded to someone else who said they were sorry your kid didnt pick the right school.......I take issue with your comments as they took a backhanded swipe at me too. I think.</p>

<p>I did NOT denigrate Ivy League or Little Ivy League Schools. In fact, my D is going to a Little Ivy in the fall.</p>

<p>My commentary about character (which is a hard factor to nail down and harder to define) was meant not to slime but to EMPHASIZE that character trumps credentials.....one's integrity trumps one's parchment no matter where that parchment comes from.</p>

<p>My raison d'etre on this board is meant soley to point out that there is too much emphasis on 'prestige' and 'rankings' and not enough on the fact there are SUPERB schools who dont fit those "elitist" qualifications.</p>

<p>I am not an envious poor individual either...I have done very well, thank you very much.</p>

<p>A lot of schools play insidious games with admissions and pump their rankings and elitism....and I just ponder as to why? What is their real mission in life? Gaining a larger share of the endowment donors?</p>

<p>I am not a bleeding heart liberal either.</p>

<p>I am only saying there are wonderful schools out there and that one kids paradise is another kids poor choice.</p>

<p>Williams (I know someone who used to be on the faculty there) is an outstanding school. Its superb. But its in the middle of rural western Massachusetts, HOURS from Boston. Its cold a lot of the year. Not much to do outside of school if you are a city kid. Its somewhat insular, from what I hear. It sells extremely well to employers in the Northeast, but out west and down south, they shrug. </p>

<p>Emory is in Atlanta. It is hot and muggy. Its not a rural setting. Its a big city with big city problems. Its a superb school. It sells extremely well in the south and much of the Mid Atlantic region. But out west and midwest and upper northeast? They shrug.</p>

<p>I would NEVER denigrate EITHER institution. They have strengths and weaknesses. But they arent for everyone.</p>

<p>And pitting one against the other in a silly rankings game is a fools game. People who pick colleges on that level are really rather sophomoric and superficial, if you ask me. </p>

<p>Defending your kids is a good thing and I hope your kids are happy. Both of them. But saying one is getting a better education than the other doesnt strike me as accurate or appropriate (though I surely dont know either one of them.) You may be VERY surprised in the end.</p>

<p>Who is to say that an education at Bucknell or Grinnell is worth less than an education at Swarthmore? </p>

<p>President Ford is widely regarded as a man of immense personal integrity (though mistake prone like all of us.) He went to Michigan and played football. He walked away from Yale.</p>

<p>Does that make him less a man or lesser educated? I hardly think so.</p>

<p>Some people might think so. That is sad.</p>

<p>Some of these Little Ivy's got there by being very good at admitting people of wealth and recruiting at prestigious prep schools....but if you look DEEP into their programs (as I did with my daughter) we found out that they weren't as good as they say they are.....so we passed on them....though VERY qualified.....(one prestigioius southern little ivy had a weak history department in our view....didnt offer ANY middle eastern studies and didnt teach arabic....they were super if you wanted to study the civil war...but that was all.....and they frowned on interdisciplinary studies. We asked.) You see what I mean?</p>

<p>Its all about FIT, not SAT scores.</p>

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<p>By continuing to use the term fit you hang your whole argument on what you seem to define as an unquantifiable concept, like character. However fit generally is a very specific term. I fit a 42 regular suit, my car fits in my garage, a 2/32 wrench fits a 2/32 nut. Fit as you use it has little use in the analysis of schools as it is only viewed from the first person perspective, that of the one student you have in mind. If you are saying Norwalk Community College is a good fit for some students you are correct, if you are saying Harvard is a good fit for some students you are correct, if you then make the leap that Norwalk CC is as good a school as Harvard because it is a good fit for some students just as Harvard is a good fit for some students, that is a non sequitur. Who's to say that Swarthmore is better than Grinnell, pretty much every book written that attempts to rate schools? I think what you are saying is ratings don't matter to you and I respect that, however they do matter to others. Many law schools only recruit out of a select list of schools; Goldman Sachs only recruits out of a select list of schools. And so on. By Little Ivies I only meant Williams and Amherst. I should have clarified that</p>

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<p>Colleges can offer all sorts of different opportunities. At all levels. </p>

<p>I have 2 kids, both with similar majors and interests. My son has significantly higher SAT scores than my d, started off at a top-tier private northeastern LAC, where his performance was uneven and mediocre; he took a break and worked for 3 years, then transferred to a lower-tier state public, choosing his school largely for financial reasons. He opted to take a very heavy courseload, and with the exception of some introductory level courses he is required to take to meet gen ed requirements of his transfer school, he has found most of the classes to be interesting and many profs to be very dedicated and engaged, and described one prof to me as "brilliant". He got straight A's is first semester, and in the spring applied for a funded semester-long internship opportunity that is very prestigious within the state, available only to students at the 2nd tier publics -- and where only one student from his school would be selected. He was awarded the internship, which is funded and includes a stipend, and which will take him back to the east coast for a semester. This internship is as good or better as anything he could possibly have gotten in his field at a private college. </p>

<p>My d. is at a top-ranked private LAC, affiliated with an Ivy, and also has dedicated and caring profs, but so far has not used words like "brilliant" or "amazing" to describe any of them to me. She is getting A's & B's. She has lined up a good internship for the summer, and was able to get grant funding from her school. I think anyone (including my son) would agree that my D's school is objectively "better" than my son's, but my d. is much less likely to get an opportunity that carries as much prestige as the internship my son has been offered, simply because the competition would be much more difficult. My son simply was a beneficiary of the big fish in a small pond effect -- it's easier to get the top prizes at his school, and in his case, the top prize turns out to be rather amazing. </p>

<p>You can debate up and down over which school is better, but in hindsight it sure looks my son made a great choice when he opted for the lower tier state public. My son never would have had a similar opportunity if he had stayed at his first college, despite the fact that a degree from college #1 would look more prestigious. The internship he now has will afford greater networking opportunities and will be more prestigious in his chosen field than a simple degree from the first college. </p>

<p>Now my son did not transfer to school #2 with his eyes on that particular prize -- he didn't even know that it existed. But the point is, a capable student can do well in a lot of contexts, and there can be an advantage of being at the top of the pack in one place vs. lost in the crowd at another. It is more than fit - it is that the student's future is determined by his inner capacity, NOT by the college he ends up in. The smarter, more capable, more ambitious students will find good opportunities wherever they end up.</p>

<p>One thing that I have learned in my life and my kids seem to appreciate as well is that the opportunities are greater if you opt for a road less traveled.</p>

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<p>Calmom -- congratulations to your son, that is awesome!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
He got straight A's is first semester, and in the spring applied for a funded semester-long internship opportunity that is very prestigious within the state, available only to students at the 2nd tier publics...

[/quote]
This is a very important point --- calmom's son won an internship that was only available to kids at a certain group of schools. When people assume that only ivys or elites offer the great internships & opportunities, they are simply wrong. Wonderful opportunities are available almost everywhere. Not the same opportunities, but certainly the same caliber. Maybe Pfizer has co-ops with Harvard, but Merck has co-ops with Rutgers & Stevens & NJIT. (just examples, don't know if they do.)</p>

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<p>I re-read the original title of this thread and it is "suddenly many colleges are elite", not there are great opportunities at many different schools. The original discussion was about, are in fact these new "elite" schools as good as Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Williams, etc. (the top 5 according to a Wall Street Journal study of feeder schools) for example. With schools like BC admitting only 3 out of 10, Williams 1 out of 8, or Harvard 1 out of 12 the vast majority of the "fit" decision is being made by the colleges. And even these numbers overstate the opportunities. At a school like Amherst once you take out 60 tipped athletes, 20 protects, 30 Quest bridge, 30 foreign students, 50 legacy, and the proverbial oboe players for a class of 400, the real number of slots available to non-hooked applicants decrease the odds of admission by another 50%. Many of my comments were out of place for a general discussion on the wonderful opportunities available at other schools, since that was not really the original topic.</p>

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<p>StickerShock,</p>

<p>A quick comment on your post a few pages ago. Here is an article from today's ND Observer on ND's athletes success off the field.</p>

<p><a href="http://media.www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/storage/paper660/news/2007/04/30/News/Ncaa-Report.Details.Academic.Success-2887923.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://media.www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/storage/paper660/news/2007/04/30/News/Ncaa-Report.Details.Academic.Success-2887923.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The article mentions a number of schools that they consider peer athletic/academic institutions: Stanford, Rice, Duke, BC and the US Naval Academy.</p>

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<p>windy: My questions are: What is elite? Who gets to decide? Wall street Journal? US News? You? Elitists? Is it 1, 5 , or 100 schools? Is iy what some folks in the east think? Or maybe the west? Is it in a specialtyy, overall, undergrad? Is it a fixed number. Then maybe there is only one...the first one. Or did somebody decide there could only be the first two or six, an arbitrary SAT, a certain ratio.
Who says BC could not become elite? A Harvard grad? (No, I did not go to BC)
It is all arbitrary and often the lists are made by...well, elitists, who want to think they or their kids are somehow special compared to others because they got into one place or the other. Maybe elite is any school that provides a particular kid the opportunity to reach /his/her goals and potential. Big list.</p>

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<p>oldolddad,</p>

<p>Exactly. The rankings, particularly US News, is helpful as a starting point because it provides a bunch of data upon which it generates its rankings. However, that should not be the end of a search. You need to dig much deeper to find the right overall fit.</p>

<p>Fit is used quite generically but my definition would include "outcomes" as the student would define it. I strongly suspect it would include your definition:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Maybe elite is any school that provides a particular kid the opportunity to reach /his/her goals and potential.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Trouble is that complicates things for most people. They prefer the simple list.</p>

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<p>I give up. My kids go to UVA, a Rodman Scholar, and Williams. I will leave it the rest to figure out what got schools are, cause I already know the answer to that question. Lets touch base when they all apply to grad school and we can do this again.</p>

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<p>Sorry to read about UVA. Well, maybe in another life, your kid can do better.</p>

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<p>Well Windy...I have to say this much. UVa is a phenomenal school. We visited and very much liked it, but also know how difficult it is for non legacy out of staters to get in there....so we opted out. Williams is a great school as well and is very special for special people. But BOTH schools are unique and very different from each other.</p>

<p>Congrats to you and your kids. I am sure you are very proud of them.</p>

<p>I hope they are happy and live a balanced life, and not 12 hours a day in the library.</p>