<p>Thanks for all of the very helpful information! We are checking out all of the schools mentioned and welcome any additional thoughts.</p>
<p>Hi 5 Boys,</p>
<p>We aren’t Catholic, either, and my daughter has very progressive political views (fortunately, Jesuits are known for being liberal.) I was a little worried about this but it seems to be fine. She says the only indication that it’s a Catholic school was a visit from Stephen Colbert (which she missed because she had a production at home that weekend, but we saw the Colbert report in August-- she asked him to freestyle Shakespeare, which he did. 
) Perhaps the only other indication that it is a Jesuit school is that there are many community service opportunities. From what I have read on the Fordham forum, you cannot get birth control at student health, but the Fordham law school has a clinic adjacent to campus.</p>
<p>The BA theater kids do take their classes at LC. They probably could technically also take classes at RH, although it would be hard to schedule, as they have a heavier load than regular BA kids. The campuses are far apart, and are like two different colleges, for practical purposes. They theater kids do not necessarily live together. My daughter did not specify any roommate request and was put in a triple with two theater tech majors. The triple is in a suite with two other girls: an English major and a dancer. The academic acceptance is the easier hurdle-- the audition, from what I can see, is the hardest part. There are a few kids who were accepted academically but not to the theater program who chose to go to Fordham anyway, with the thought of minoring or re-auditioning. I am not sure how often that strategy is successful (re-auditioning.)</p>
<p>Actually, I think GH @ 19 is pretty much on target about the academic level of the students at Bard (as a group) - nothing wrong with 'em, but definitely not at the level you’d find at some of the more highly ranked institutions. When I visited with D1 (admittedly several years ago now) we took a random look at some of the final theses (or whatever they call them - basically each student’s big, final project) and we were somewhat underwhelmed with what was supposed to be their best work. </p>
<p>Can definitely be a good school for many, but I think a high-achiever like the OP’s daughter would not be happy there. (Don’t know anything about their theater program except that they have the requisite new, fabulous venue - Micheal Graves, I think.)</p>
<p>Here’s another of those odd “best of” lists (other than Northwestern none of these were on D’s list) – this one from from Backstage this week – but it might give you some additional ideas.</p>
<p>[5</a> Top College Theater Programs Outside of NY](<a href=“http://www.backstage.com/news/spotlight/5-top-theater-programs/]5”>http://www.backstage.com/news/spotlight/5-top-theater-programs/)</p>
<p>Enjoyed Backstage’s “Best Of” list that MomCares linked to @ #24. Lists like this are always “interesting,” but clearly every living human being with the intelligence and talent to actually attend A “top college theater program” understands the superficiality and author bias in any such list (especially in such a subjective and amorphous educational, training, and career path as theater/acting).</p>
<p>Still, lists do provide ideas for further research. And it’s always interesting to see names beyond the usual suspects.</p>
<p>The Rutgers Mason Gross program (the good, bad, and the ugly) has been discussed ad nauseam on these boards, so lots of information available here.</p>
<p>Backstage’s writeup of The USD program is vague and curious. USD/Old Globe is without question one of the tippy-top “MFA” acting programs in the country (a fully funded, highly compressed, 2-year program putting 6-7 talented and generally already very experienced students (selected from 500-800 applicants) right to work with professionals in Old Globe’s highly regarded regional theater). It was one of my daughter’s top-three, three years running, and she would have sold her soul – thrown mine into the deal too – to have been selected for this program. But Backstage’s admittedly brief blurb says nothing whatsoever about the USD “undergraduate” program, and how it meshes with both the MFA program and the Old Globe regional theater.</p>
<p>All lists are inherently superficial and biased – as MomCares suggests, use them for ideas, but then do your due diligence!</p>
<p>^Backstage lists Georgetown as a top theatre program, but the description of its curriculum represents it as analysis-oriented rather than performance oriented.</p>
<p>Their writeup on Rutger/Mason Gross says that it does an “astounding” 15 - 18 productions a year. Boston University does more than that; I wouldn’t be surprised if others do as well.</p>
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<p>Since I brought it up, and since we looked into Bard fairly closely last year, I’ll add a little more detail:</p>
<p>The performing arts center is a 2003 building by Frank Gehry. It’s instantly recognizable as a Gehry building. The building is actually a shuttle bus ride from the main part of campus, which seems like a minus to me. It is a beautiful building, shared with the conservatory. </p>
<p>Most of the students we know who go to Bard are in the conservatory (one of my other kids is a classical musician) so we had some trouble finding information about theater/academics aside from vague recommendations on CC. Our first visit was on a gorgeous autumn day, and the student center building just happened to be hosting the wonderful Hudson Valley craft fair, which may have given us an overly heightened impression of the energy level at Bard. We drove 4 hours to get there and 4 hours to get home, which didn’t leave tons of time to spend on campus while things were hopping, so we were limited to a tour and some general wandering around. Our tour guide just happened to be the only playwriting/theater major in the senior class (what are the chances?) and his obvious love of the program also colored our impression positively. He, and other Bard students continually emphasized how the college supports (with funding and other support) student-led projects. This is also a huge plus, IMO. </p>
<p>We did further research before our next visit, in April: the parents of Bard kids I’ve spoken to are extremely positive about the school, and in particular the opportunities it presents to students. My interaction with parents was mostly limited to parents of conservatory kids, all of whom turned down places like Juilliard, NEC, and CIM to attend Bard because of the 5-year double degree program (and also because of excellent scholarships.) They all felt that the opportunities provided by Bard compensated for its remote location and less-well-known program. I did speak to a trusted colleague whose son spent a year at Bard, not a conservatory student. His experience was miserable-- academics, housing, social, the works. His son fell into a drug culture that exists at the school (not so much among conservatory students) and transferred out. </p>
<p>In April, my daughter and I returned, and booked a hotel so we could investigate more closely. We interviewed a number of students, and hung around campus. She sat in on two classes (acting and playwriting) and we went to a production of the student playwright’s work. </p>
<p>The most important thing we learned was that the theater program was to be completely re-organized for this fall. There would no longer be an opportunity to major in playwriting, and the theater major itself would be more generalized. However, specific details were not available to us. We were told that playwrights would not longer be guaranteed a production of their thesis (but also assured that Bard would support student-led initiatives.) The playwriting teacher seemed quite good (my daughter was less enthused at the level of student work in that class) but seemed to indicate that my daughter would be better off at the more intensive program at Fordham. Likewise, the Acting I class was not appealing to my daughter (as it was comprised mostly of students with no prior experience.) Could be, she was simply sent to too low level a class, but that was the class admissions allowed her to attend. Contrasted with classes at auditioned programs, it was not in the same league. But: we were told that a graduating senior from this very small program had just been accepted to the MFA program at Juilliard. And other recent Bard grads have gone on to Yale. The student acting in the production we saw was uneven. </p>
<p>My takeaway was that here is a program where an ambitious, intelligent student could do extremely well, especially given Leo Botstein’s commitment to supporting student-generated endeavors. Obviously, there is a lot of talent among the student body and faculty, and much opportunity for interdisciplinary exploration. The level of general education will be considerably higher than that at most BFA programs. The school is artsier and more tolerant than many BA programs. And the facilities are excellent. </p>
<p>It wasn’t for my daughter because she wanted more clarity on the direction of the theater program. She also wanted a higher level of student acting across the board-- but clearly there are excellent student actors coming out of Bard.</p>
<p>When my daughter was quizzed, last April, by well-meaning adults about her college choices, everyone was puzzled to learn that it was coming down to a choice between Fordham and Bard (with NYU and Rutgers a distant tie for third.) How could those choices exist in the same universe? A very small universe, to be sure. Anyway, she is happy with her choice, but her “twin” cousin, who is graduating high school this year, is looking seriously at Bard for all of the positive reasons I have described above.</p>
<p>What would the options be for a strong acting BA program in close proximity to New York City, with a good size campus? Thanks in advance!</p>
<p>If you are looking for a school that is very near NYC but not actually in it, that offers a strong performance-oriented BA in theatre, and is also very highly ranked academically…I’m not sure that such a place exists.</p>
<p>If you dropped any one of the three criteria, you would have more schools to choose from.</p>
<p>Drew and Montclair spring to mind, but they might not offer the level of academics the OP’s daughter wants. </p>
<p>Montclair has a good auditioned BA, offers wonderful academic merit scholarships, and has an honors program, so it might be worth a look.</p>
<p>OK, I’ll bite. Sarah Lawrence has a strong theater program. It is a BA but with a unique approach. There are no majors there. Students, in close consultation with faculty advisers (“dons”), create their own courses of study. There is a class specifically for those first-year students who plan on concentrating in theater (in SLC parlance, these are called “theater thirds”); there is a rather large number of faculty in the department (they also run a Theater MFA program); and there are many courses in theater. Here is a link to a page that will get you started:</p>
<p>[Undergraduate</a> Theatre](<a href=“Theatre | Sarah Lawrence College”>Theatre | Sarah Lawrence College)</p>
<p>SLC also has a very strong writing program. So doing play writing and screenwriting is certainly possible. And it is very close to NYC. Many faculty have professional ties to the city; and students go in all the time.</p>
<p>We all know the downside: it is expensive. But they do have financial aid and if you are looking for a place that is highly flexible, but offers informed guidance, where you can develop you interests in theater, acting, writing and liberal arts, you might want to give it a look.</p>
<p>Vassar has a great BA program.</p>
<p>We have not done a visit yet, but Barnard is on my daughter’s list. [Theatre</a> Department | Theatre](<a href=“http://theatre.barnard.edu/node/1343]Theatre”>http://theatre.barnard.edu/node/1343)</p>
<p>We did visit Columbia to see our niece when D was a sophomore and D loved the campus. Columbia’s theatre department is actually housed at Barnard. When we were visiting Columbia we took in a production of Hamlet on Broadway and ran in to a lot of kids from Columbia that were there for a class assignment - D, of course, loved that.</p>
<p>Our niece has warned my D about the cynicism of some of the kids at Columbia. Also, D’s theatre professor from a summer intensive program has told her NYC can, at times, be a distraction for a serious student. I’m interested in others opinions on this.</p>
<p>D has visited Brown and NU and loves how upbeat the student body is. There is a little concern that students in or near the City may be not be as upbeat. Perhaps more cynical. This opinion has little basis in firsthand experience - it’s just what she’s been told by others. Again, would love to hear other parents opinion on this.</p>
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D1 looked at Barnard years ago and actually preferred it over Columbia because she liked the idea of a small women’s college that gave her the opportunity to take advantage of the course offerings within the larger university. She doubled majored in English and Philosophy but (and I did not see this coming) has ended up with a theater career (she has founded an aerial theater company. Go figure.) </p>
<p>SO I really wanted D4, the actor, to look into Barnard. I thought she would respond to it the way her sister did. We know of Barnard grads who have gone on to Juilliard or who have acting careers. Among others, Cynthia Nixon went to Barnard…</p>
<p>But our tour, on a pleasant fall day, had low energy. We had just raced across town from an NYU tour, so the residue from that excitement may have colored my daughter’s impression of the school. The tour guide was an introverted science major, and the rest of the tour was comprised mostly of a single extended family who were very keen on their daughter majoring in chemistry. We were taken first to inspect some drab dormitories… most of the conversation on the tour was about the future science major. The tour guide knew nothing about theater. The admissions officer who ran the info session was bright and chipper, but by then my daughter was sure that she did not want to go to Barnard. I felt a little frustrated, as I had expected her to like the school, and yet I could see why she did not.</p>
<p>One of the reasons I recount this story is to point out how the circumstances of a visit can create a very strong impression that may not be entirely accurate. A different tour guide might have created a more energetic atmosphere, and D4 might have felt as positively towards Barnard as D1 did. </p>
<p>I still believe that Barnard might be a good choice for a theater major who is also interested in BA academics.</p>
<p>As for the distractions of the city. I suppose it depends on the individual. Two of my daughters (D3 and 4) are currently in school in NYC and I often feel that they should be a little more distracted-- take more advantage of the fruits NYC has to offer. Students in intense programs tend to become myopic as work to complete everything in their crammed schedules.</p>
<p>[edit]: I forgot to mention the cynicism of Columbia students towards Barnard women. Yes, we learned about this after D1 decided not to attend either of those schools. </p>
<p>Also, D3 is currently taking a class at Barnard through her own school’s exchange program, and she loves it.</p>
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<p>I was really speaking to cynicism in general. My niece says she has many amazing friends at Columbia, but there can be an air of negativism and cynicism, which sort of comes with the territory of being a New Yorker. </p>
<p>As far as the Barnard/Columbia thing - she says there is a sentiment that the Barnard kid got in to Columbia “through the back door” but she says many of her friends and classmates are Barnard students and it’s a non-issue to the point where she sort of forgets about who is a Barnard student and who is a Columbia student. </p>
<p>She actually recommended that D attend Barnard over Columbia, because the Barnard girls have better housing and better access to undergrad advisory services, and full access to Columbia.</p>
<p>One thing that worries me is that my niece is a beautiful, smart, outgoing girl, but is dating a boy from Bowden. She says it’s slim pickings at Columbia. Not that our kids should select a college based on marriage prospects, but I’m just saying.</p>
<p>^It may be true about Columbia kids being cynical…but would this apply to those who are focusing on theatre?? It’s kind of hard to imagine theatre kids as cynical. </p>
<p>I agree that how distracting NYC would be depends on the kid. There is also the issue of how expensive it is to do things in the city. I have heard of students on limited budgets who have been very unhappy and frustrated because of the way their peers could go out and socialize in ways they could not.</p>
<p>I hesitated to post because I agree with glassharmonica, that a single visit can really impact your perception, fairly and unfairly. Our single visit to Columbia several years back, for my oldest son, has so negatively colored our perceptions that none of my kids even apply there or to Barnard. </p>
<p>Now, I’m from north Jersey and I grew up going to NYC at least once a week; I guess I’m not fully sure what the ‘cynicism and negativity’ refers to. In my own perspective, New York is not negative at all-it is insanely, frenetically positive, or maybe insanely full of energy. And as a Jewish East Coaster, I probably live and breathe what others might call cynicism and what I’d call ‘a sense of humor.’ 
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<p>Anyway, my son loved that sort of sense from NYC and we all thought, before we went, that Columbia would be a perfect fit for him/ It was a disaster at all levels. The student tour guide was insular and seemed only aware of himself; to a nervous parent question about how often kids went into the city, he said there was ‘no need to even go into the city’ - sweep of the arm around him - ‘because so much happens right here on campus.’ He gave a ‘this is x building, and this is y building’ kind of tour, and didn’t seem to notice his group getting smaller and smaller as we went on. We also finally left. But ok, he’s just a kid-- The worst was the official presenter to parents/students. He was the snarkiest rep we’ve ever had: he said, “if your SAT scores are below 700 you can pretty much forget about coming here.” And to a question from a parent about a single C their kid received in 9th grade he made a face then said, 'Well, with very rare exceptions, a C is a deal breaker. You just can’t get accepted here." This was an adult, not a student. He also kept referring to the ‘other school downtown’ (NYU), taking potshots at it and saying how superior Columbia was to the ‘other school downtown.’ By the time we toured what seemed to us to be the very shabby depressing theatre department at Barnard - by ourselves, since no one seemed to know anything about it - both my son and I, and my two daughters who came along, we quite certain he was not even going to apply to Columbia.</p>
<p>That was our experience–Is it indicative of anything? I have no idea. I guess I’d recommend visiting for yourself and getting a feel for it. Obviously some kids LOVE it there, cynical and not. It’s just so personal. As far as NYC being distracting–yes, it can be very distracting to many students. All the NYC schools warn you about that; I remember NYU being very upfront and honest that NYU ‘wasn’t for everyone.’ It really, truly depends on your kid. It can also be awesome.</p>
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<p>I guess it depends on the kid. My daughter who is a junior at Juilliard has so many part-time jobs that I’ve lost track of them-- she teaches Saturday morning and afternoon; babysits Saturday night; her fellowship-funded performance group (which requires travel to nursing homes all over the boroughs) Sunday morning/afternoons. Various small work-study jobs. Gigs. More classes than I can keep track of, secondary and tertiary instrument study, volunteer activities, student council. Class at Barnard. She pretty much never goes out except for a rare trip to hear a concert. She is also sweet, open-minded, and probably the least cynical person I have ever met. She goes to a school that’s infamous for its competitive, backbiting atmosphere, but there are pockets of sanity within. My kid who is a freshman at Fordham has only babysitting jobs for income, but aside from blowing bubbles in Central Park and a few trips to see plays off campus, again, she’s not burning through money. Her biggest expense is groceries. I know this because I have access to their online banking (I co-signed when they made the accounts.) </p>
<p>The Columbia kids described below seem very arrogant. I think this kind of arrogance is often an expression of insecurity. I teach at an Ivy that famously has an inferiority complex relative to HYP/Columbia. From my observation, Columbia students generally have an inferiority complex relative to HYP, which would account for their arrogance towards NYU. P has an inferiority complex relative to HY, and Harvard and Yale are left at the top to duke it out. (Note- I don’t ascribe to any of this, but I’ve been watching these attitudes for years.) FWIW, I’ve been amused to read the high opinions of the academics at NYU here on the theater forum because prior to signing on at CC, my impression was that NYU was the consolation school for well-to-do kids who were reject from all Ivies plus, say, Duke. There is a high level of arrogance/insecurity around Ivy admissions, but I don’t think that this atmosphere necessarily permeates every corner of the schools themselves. Of course, students looking into theater programs are already immune to most of these attitudes, as the best theater programs are often at colleges and universities that are not within the elite boxing ring. So lucky for us, really.</p>
<p>Of course, everyone is better off if they forget about these anxious, self-perpetuating, and pretty much meaningless attitudes (not saying that anyone <em>here</em> has expressed such attitudes, more than simply experienced them.) It’s so difficult to peel back the layers of hype and peer into what a school might possibly be like once you’re beyond the circus of applications and admissions!</p>
<p>GH…right on as usual! I always enjoy your posts and you seem to have a handle on this crazy process. I guess probably because you have been through it 4 times and know what comes after it is all said and done… when like you said," you peel back the layers of the hype". My kid applying next year, who is my first theater junkie, is my 5th kid through the process, and I am definitely over all the hype and am trying to help him decipher what is the best fit for him. So far we are have some schools in NY/Philly/Boston… and because he is keeping the BA/BFA gate open at the moment we have quite a few schools to investigate.</p>
<p>We live in So Cal, so next weekend we are driving up to LA to visit Pitzer and Oxy. He will talk to people in the theater dept and Science dept at Oxy. I have recently found out that if you majo in theater at Pitzer it is actually at Pomona. I have heard that these are both great schools for a BA in theater. It will be his first college visits so it will be interesting to see how he likes the smaller LAC type school. Personally I see him at a bigger urban school.</p>
<p>Because he has verbalized his interest into hopefully continuing with sailing in college he has shown some real interest in U of Washington. I have heard some really good things about their BA in theater program… just wondering if anyone else has any info about it. My parents live in Seattle so he really likes the area.</p>
<p>My older D just graduated from Barnard in June with a major in theater. Even though she is a tech/design person, not an actor (she had to take one acting course for the major, and found it “painful”!) I thought I’d share some thoughts about the theater major and the school.</p>
<p>First of all, she had a great experience, academically and socially. Transferring to Barnard from a small LAC in the middle of nowhere was probably the best thing that ever happened to her. Barnard takes very good care of their students and their alumni, both academically and personally. (Though to be fair, the administrative depts have their share of glitches, probably about the same amount as anywhere.) They have a whole program to assist students who are interested in post-graduate grants and awards (Fulbrights, etc.) and they even lend out clothes for job interviews! They are really dedicated to the personal, academic, and professional growth of their women.</p>
<p>She took full advantage of being able to take courses at both Barnard and Columbia; there was so much to choose from that she couldn’t fit it all into her schedule. She made friends with both Barnard and Columbia students, primarily through the really amazing number of student-run theater activities at the schools. (There are enough students involved in these productions to hold a “Theater Prom” each year!)</p>
<p>That being said, there are certainly Columbia students, both men and women, who do look down on the Barnard students, both academically and socially. Some of them are very rude. But my sense is that the jerks are in the minority. My daughter did experience this a bit, but I never got the sense that it bothered her much. There are so many people there and so much to do that these folks weren’t an issue.</p>
<p>In terms of being “distracted” by New York, I believe that there are certainly some affluent students who go off campus and party in the clubs or whatever. But there are a ton of kids who don’t, much, partly for financial reasons, and partly because there is so much to do on or near campus. One could certainly get “distracted” there, but for the most part it’s going to be for the same reasons as at any other sizable school with a lot of bright young people.</p>
<p>Finally, the Theater Dept. Like anything else, it’s not perfect, but they do a very good job. Some majors concentrate on performance and others on design, and certainly there could be people focusing on theater as an academic subject. My daughter’s advisor got to know her very well, gave her individualized advice on her class choices, and was very honest with her when she felt she needed to do something differently. The other members of the dept. all seemed to know her and all of the other majors by name. When my daughter had questions or suggestions she felt free to mention them to the chair, who took them seriously. </p>
<p>I can’t really speak to the acting training, but we did see quite a few productions, and it sure looked like the training was working! Some very good performances.</p>
<p>So I would say that for a girl who wants to get a BA in theater in a big city, Barnard is certainly worth looking into.</p>
<p>I’d like to add one point to this conversation: while it is absolutely possible to have a great experience as a theatre major without being in a major urban/arts hub, the fact is that in many locations the opportunity to see professional theatre greatly enhances one’s education. I would not discourage a theatre student who wants to be near NYC or anywhere else from going there specifically BECAUSE there are so many cultural offerings. Maybe someone in a different course of study would simply be “distracted,” but these kids will be inspired, and also they are likely to gain connections because of the proximity to working professionals.</p>
<p>My D is near NYC, and yes, it is a budget item of $50-100/month for her to go to the theatre. It is $12 round trip on the train, and tickets to plays cost her between $10-30. She belongs to many discount websites and other memberships, does student rush and everything else to get tickets as cheaply as possible. She often packs a lunch or eats at falafel carts. This is practically the only thing she spends money on, and yes, she just took a part-time job so that she can afford to do it it even more. She’s not being seduced by “nightlife” or even “entertainment” - this is part of her education. In fact, she has been told by many people that she should get a minor in Theatregoing. </p>
<p>She is one of the few people at her school who go to large number of plays (and she only has time for this when she’s not in production, of course). Some can’t afford it, and some just aren’t interested. Her profs are very aware that she is seeking out significant theatrical opportunities - she’s not seeing Wicked 10 times, for example. She’s recognizing designers and other lesser-noticed artists in Playbills and is becoming familiar with the work of some really terrific not-so-famous people. And her knowledge of theatre literature is expanding exponentially.</p>
<p>I am not saying everyone theatre kid should be in NYC, Chicago, etc. But I would hope that it isn’t considered “distracting” or “frivolous” for them to want be in a city where they might get a chance to have this as part of their experience.</p>