Suggestions for Colleges for Non-Ivy Leaguer

Parents Forum
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<p>I am trying to come up with a good list of colleges my rising-senior daughter should consider applying. After taking some tours over spring break, it appears she is looking for a small to medium school that is full of bright kids, but not so cut-throat or intense that the kids don't have time to enjoy the college experience (she doesn't want to be up until all hours studying every night - we toured Reed College, and it scared her after she talked to some of the kids who talked about the intensity). She does not want a big party school. She is leaning towards something in science as a major (but I would not be surprised to see that change once she is in college and exposed to more options). She is interested in having a study-abroad experience and is teaching herself Japanese, so would like to take Japanese in college. When we toured schools, her favorite was Pomona College (which I had no clue was so selective until AFTER we toured it - oops) and William and Mary. </p>

<p>She has strong extracurriculars and is 1/2 Hispanic (Mexican). She is currently 2nd or 3rd in her class of 395. However, I have come to the conclusion that her public high school does grade inflation and the vast majority of kids are not college-bound and even fewer consider anything besides a UC or California State college. She has taken honors classes and AP classes. Her cumulative weighted GPA is currently 4.14 (due to one B freshman year in Spanish). Her weighted GPA this year was 4.5 (she has also has lots of A+'s although those don't get treated differently than A's). Her teachers LOVE her, so she already has asked a couple of them to write her recommendations - which because they have written them for her for a program she applied to last year - I know will be glowing. She took her SAT's and ACT's for the first time in June (late I know) and did okay but not great (especially compared to a typical CC student - her weakness is definitely writing, so I have her working w/ a private tutor this summer, so she can retake them). Her scores were SAT 1840 (680 M, 650 CR, 510 W) and ACT 28 (English 26, Math 30, Reading 30, Science 25 (? maybe because she hasn't had chemistry yet or ?), Writing 24). She also took two SAT Subject 2 tests, but the scores weren't very strong compared to the CC kids. I would need to look them up to give you the exact scores.</p>

<p>Her preference would be not to go too far from home (West Coast) UNLESS the school is a great match for her. If it is, then she is okay with applying to schools in other parts of the country. Pomona seems to fit exactly what she is looking for except her test scores are definitely lower than the average accepted applicant's. None the less, she plans to apply there (and hope her essay and interview show them she is a good fit). She also is guaranteed a spot in a UC (just not guaranteed at which school) due to her high class rank. I think UC Santa Cruz or Davis are probably the best fits. She probably will also apply to William and Mary, but that also seems like it might be a bit of a reach if she cannot raise her SAT/ACT scores. Therefore, I am looking for suggestions for other schools (probably LAC's) that would be alternatives to Pomona. Oh - and she is in a very lucky position where relatives will help with her tuition, so cost does not have to be a consideration.</p>

<p>Thanks so much for helping me provide suggestions to her to come up with some more schools she should consider putting on her "list."</p>

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<p>First of all, I wouldn’t rule out Ivy League or Pomona based on your daughter’s background, grades and school strength. It can actually help being a star/standout at a high school which <em>may</em> not be as academically rigorous as others, and if she’s done well in AP classes (and exams?) she should be able to hold her own. Some Ivies are not as competitive once you get there as others; on the other hand I’ve read on this site that Pomona can be somewhat competitive. If she really likes Pomona why not apply (maybe even under their “bridge” program, she might qualify even if you don’t need the aid) and perhaps apply to another Claremont College as well, maybe Harvey Mudd if she likes science? They all cross register. Also why not try for Stanford? It is not a huge school, and the students have a very supportive ethos.</p>

<p>Also with her grades why not try for UC Berkeley? Excellent in science, as good a reputation as any top private school, and with the sorority system etc it is possible to find a smaller “home” within a huge university. UC Davis would also be great for science.</p>

<p>If you are open to going back East there are lots of excellent smaller non-Ivy schools. We had the opposite problem of trying to find such schools in CA coming from the Northeast; most schools seem to either be UC/Cal State or religiously affiliated schools (I know, I know, Stanford, but our top ranked high school that sends dozens of kids to Ivies and similar sends at best 1 student a year to Stanford) </p>

<p>Your daughter may be unnecessarily shying away from some good options. She/you shouldn’t let your concerns about her high school’s rank eliminate options for her!</p>

<p>Finally some kids do better on the SAT, some kids do better on the ACT. It looks like your daughter would do better to concentrate on the SAT if she is studying to retake them. Check out the Veritas Tutor’s website (Cambridge, MA), they have some great free material eg on how to get into “your Harvard” (your aspirational school)</p>

<p>Good luck!!</p>

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<p>Occidental, Chapman and Whittier College</p>

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<p>If your daughter is willing to look on the East coast, she might want to check out Franklin and Marshall and Ursinus. Both have had Japanese programs for some time. There might be others as well.</p>

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<p>Did she have any interest in Pitzer?</p>

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<p>What size is “small to medium”?</p>

<p>The five Claremont colleges are around 1,000 students each.</p>

<p>Stanford has about 15,000 students, of which around 7,000 are undergraduates.</p>

<p>The smallest of the UCs for undergraduates is Merced (2,700) and Santa Cruz (15,000); the others, including Davis, are 20,000 or more in terms of total student population.</p>

<p>The CSUs are typically smaller, with Channel Islands, Monterey Bay, San Marcos, Bakersfield, Humboldt, Sonoma, Stanislaus, and Maritime all under 10,000. Both Cal Polys are around 19,000.</p>

<p>What type of science is she interested in? If size concerns relate to class sizes, major choice can make a big difference. For example, at Berkeley, a Molecular and Cell Biology major will see a lot of large classes, because that major is the largest major on campus. But a Math major will see mostly small classes (even in freshman and sophomore year if taking the honors math courses). Note that the popularity of biology majors also means that job and career prospects for biology graduates are not very good.</p>

<p>Note that GPA for UC and CSU admissions includes only 10th and 11th grade course grades in a-g subjects (so the freshman year B is not included); up to 8 semesters’ worth of honors / AP courses are weighted with +1 for grades of C or better (so 5 points instead of 4 for A grades). (see [here[/url</a>] and [url=&lt;a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”&gt;Cal State Apply | CSU]here](<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/counselors/q-and-a/calculating-gpa/index.html]here[/url”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/counselors/q-and-a/calculating-gpa/index.html)</a>)</p>

<p>Most of the UCs look like match or safety level for her, based on the [url=&lt;a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/freshman/profiles/index.html]fall”&gt;http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/freshman/profiles/index.html]fall</a> 2010 admission profiles<a href=“though%20selectivity%20has%20been%20increasing”>/url</a>; even Berkeley and Los Angeles are not unreasonable reaches. So don’t be afraid of aiming high in the UCs and private schools if you find good fits, as long as the list also includes some good safety schools (safe for both admissions and costs).</p>

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<p>Whitman and University of Puget Sound (both in Washington state); both have Japanese and both have very good reputations, I think, but aren’t extremely hard to get into (which Pomona is).</p>

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<p>How about Santa Clara University? It’s a great school with good sciences. I’m not sure they offer Japanese, however. Many students study abroad. School has under 5000 undergrads. It’s terrific.</p>

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<p>My son goes to Whitman and it’s a great school, however it does not have a Japanese major. Japanese is offered as a minor. Sciences are very strong. You should take a look. </p>

<p>On the other hand, Willamette (Salem, OR) is an up-and-coming west coast liberal arts school that’s slightly less selective than Whitman but also a terrific school. They have very close ties and a very active exchange program with Japan. They offer a major and a minor in Japanese. I think she’d find it academically challenging but not to the exclusion of all else.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the great suggestions! Keep them coming please - including any small or medium (which in my mind is 7K students or less) LAC’s in other parts of the country. My D has said if it is a school that is a good fit, she is okay w/ going further away.</p>

<p>I tried to respond earlier, but for some reason I think my response disappeared into outerspace. Anyway, she doesn’t have a clear idea of the type of science although it is unlikely to be biology as she is very squeamish. She has taken a # of honors classes (A’s or A+'s in them all) and two AP classes so far (as they don’t let them take them until junior year). She got A+'s in both of her AP classes (English and Physics). Her AP scores are not back yet, but we are not optimistic on the English (based on her writing scores on the SAT/ACT plus the fact her teacher was horrible. She will be taking almost all AP classes next year.</p>

<p>CAorbust - you mentioned Pomona’s “bridge” program? Is that Questbridge? We do not qualify as we are not low-income. If it is another program though, I would be interested in looking into it.</p>

<p>Also, thanks ucbalumnus for clarifying the UC’s do not look at freshman year, etc. UCB actually seems too intense for my d in a # of ways - not just talking about academics, but the school atmosphere… That is why, although UC Davis is large too, I think it might work better for her as a “safety/match” even though it doesn’t meet her criteria (the small town feel, the science emphasis, etc. make it appear at first glance to be somewhat closer to her desires in a school). </p>

<p>We are actually signed up to go to a reception that features several Washington and Oregon schools - including Whitman and University of Puget Sound, so we will find out more on them. Pitzer and Occidental are also two we are planning to visit but decided to wait until Fall to get a better sense of the schools. Santa Clara does bear looking into too! And I have heard GREAT things about the Stanford students - it is definitely a wonderful school (and one she can add as a definite reach - but nothing ventured nothing gained). What great ideas you are giving us - including the East Coast schools mentioned</p>

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<p>Lark123, if she’s actually looking for a small town feel she’ll love Walla Walla, Wa. It’s very charming and friendly. The Whitman campus is 2 blocks from the downtown and everything a student needs in within walking distance. I went to parents’ weekend last year in October and the campus has tons of mature trees turning colors, it was really breathtaking.</p>

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<p>Tulane university, though I’m not sure about the Japanese part haha.</p>

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<p>Macalester, Brown, Tufts, Johns Hopkins?</p>

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<p>One other thought–she should definitely work on her writing, not just for the tests, but for the essay parts of the applications. Someone said that the essay prompts for the Common Application for next year are online already. It wouldn’t hurt to look, and maybe have her practice responding to them. The essays were probably the hardest part for my daughter, and it seems like they can be a make-or-break for the applications. But also beware of overcoaching her on them. Her voice needs to come through, but it has to catch someone’s attention, in a good way. VERY fine line to tread sometimes.</p>

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<p>Not Johns Hopkins (as mentioned by a previous poster), it is high intensity. But the other suggestions sound great.</p>

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<p>As things stand now, she would be a match (?) at St Olaf. Additionally, she would have geographic diversity working for her. It is a larger LAC -3,100- and in a nice small town.
[Japanese</a> Program](<a href=“http://www.stolaf.edu/depts/japanese/]Japanese”>http://www.stolaf.edu/depts/japanese/)</p>

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<p>Thanks - good thought. She is definitely going to work on her essays over the summer. At this point, rather than have her writing tutor help her, I have one of my good friends who is an excellent writer (Stanford undergrad/USC grad school) set to coach her on them. It is my hope to try not to have someone take over but rather guide her, and I think my friend has the skills to do that since she has helped other kids do similar type things before. They met once already to flush out her topic for the common essay, but since my D has been focusing on the SAT writing tutoring and the AP Environmental Science summer homework (plus volunteering at a local children’s theater) over the past week, I told her to not stress too much yet on the essay. I am also hoping the SAT writing tutoring may actually “rub off” and help her when it comes to the college essay too. Gosh - whatever happened to nice, relaxing summers?!</p>

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<p>I would suggest Smith College. It is SAT/ACT optional, strong in the sciences, 2600 students, and japanese is offered.</p>

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<p>Lark, I wouldn’t worry about your daughter’s scores. Her many positives – grades, rank, recommendations, demographic – will more than compensate and she will be a person of interest to many colleges, even some the most selective. </p>

<p>What you haven’t mentioned are her interests and extracurriculars (other than volunteering at a children’s theater). What she does with her non-academic time could be the deal breaker in admissions. Small colleges especially like multi-faceted, talented kids – academics + arts + sports = ideal applicant – but there are many ways to fill in the blanks.</p>

<p>If finances are really secured, then she should consider applying ED to Pomona or whatever her #1 turns out to be.</p>

<p>My son, who did his undergraduate at Williams and is now in graduate school at Cornell, has several close friends who chose Pomona. In the same general ambience I would suggest that your daughter look at Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Kenyon, Carleton, Grinnell, Davidson, Mt. Holyoke. A larger school, but one that attracts similar personalities is the University of Virginia.</p>

<p>Her Hispanic background will give her an edge in schools that have difficulty attracting high achieving minorities. This is especially true of schools in rural or Midwestern locations.</p>

<p>All of these small LACs, like Pomona, feature bright energetic and friendly kids and nurturing, accessible professors, cohesive and supportive campus communities. They are academically challenging but in a positive sense, not a cutthroat or hyper-competitive. </p>

<p>Safety nets, like writing centers and study groups, are all encouraged.Retention rates demonstrate that if they accept you, they will help you succeed. </p>

<p>Japanese is a fairly common at most academically rigorous schools and study abroad is also widely available.</p>

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<p>Her EC are: </p>

<p>Plays bagpipes in school pipeband & also in school’s marching band (10, 11, & 12), played clarinet in marching band (9 - also in middle school). She was also on the leadership board for the marching band (11). The pipeband plays separately from the marching band at various functions througout the community.</p>

<p>Interact Club (9) & Key Club (10, 11, 12), president of Key Club 11, 12 - club got most improved club in District under her leadership (11). Various community service projects/hours related to these clubs.</p>

<p>National Honor Society - 10, 11, 12 (secretary - 12)</p>

<p>Member of our city’s Sister City Program - hosted Japanese Sister City delegate for 3 weeks (11) and selected as member of Sister City delegation (11 - but due to disasters, will be going to Japan next summer instead - 12). Instead she and the other delegates are doing fund raising for the Japanese relief efforts (11). Will be hosting Japanese Sister City Musician (12).</p>

<p>She also has volunteered (as I mentioned) every summer since before high school helping backstage and working w/ the children at a local non-profit theater.</p>

<p>Well, I know a lot of the CC kids have amazing EC’s, but I do think she has done a lot of things outside of her classes. She thinks she is too heavy in band (i.e. no sports), but I think she enjoys band :)</p>