<p>My son is a sophomore and a strong student at a magnet high school outside D.C. He plays soccer for his high school team and a traveling club team, and would like to play soccer competitively in college. He is not sure how much time he would be able to play at a Division I School or and even at an Ivy League School, and therefore is interested in schools with Divsion III Soccer. I think he would enjoy a LAC or small university. He also would like to attend a school with strong academics (in both humanities and sciences) and fairly high ethnic and racial diversity. Would prefer to be not too far from a city or town. We live on the East Coast and most likely would prefer he go to school on the East Coast (Georgia to Maine) or Midwest so that he is not too far from home.</p>
<p>Of course, it's impossible to make specific recommendations because we can't evaluate how strong he is in academics and how strong he is in soccer. Both of those would impact admissions odds.</p>
<p>Since you are in Washington, I'd recommend going up to Philly and having a cup of coffee with the Swarthmore soccer coach. The school fits all of the criteria you outlined. Very strong academics -- none better. Very high racial and ethnic diversity -- the highest of any East Coast co-ed LAC (38% non-white or international). Located in a gorgeous old neighborhood of Philadelphia with a train station on campus: 25 minutes to downtown, direct train service to D.C. and NYC.</p>
<p>The men's soccer program is competitive, finishing the season with a 12-5-1 record (losing to Franklin & Marshall, Johns Hopkins, and Gettysburg). Something that doesn't show up in the stats is that the men's soccer coach has a policy: join one of the two fraternities and you can't be on the team. I've never met him, but I like him! He obviously demands high character players.</p>
<p>There are so many options that I think a general approach for your son would be to:</p>
<p>a) narrow down a list of options that would be a good fit independent of soccer</p>
<p>b) contact coaches to get a sense of where he would fit into the soccer scene at the school.</p>
<p>Of course, the NESCAC colleges (Williams, Amherst, etc.) are very big sports schools. Williams is ranked in the top 10 nationally in Div III soccer. They have perhaps the biggest emphasis on sports of any division III school, with the largest per capita athletic budget and 50% of the school playing on at least one varsity, JV, or club sport team. Of course, this also means they are doing more national-level recruiting, so your son may not stand out as much from an admissions standpoint. That's why you have to really try to establish where he would stand both academically and athletically in the applicant pool. He could get a boost at one school, but not at another.</p>
<p>Here's a list of the top-25 Div III soccer teams this year:</p>
<p><a href="http://d3kicks.com/top25.php%5B/url%5D">http://d3kicks.com/top25.php</a></p>
<p>As you can see, there aren't a ton of really good academic schools.</p>
<p>Check out Maclester in St. Paul. The soccer program is decent, it is a very diverse shool for its' size and is located in the twin cities.</p>
<p>pmyen - I have a feeling our sons are going to be looking at a lot of the same places and talking to a lot of the same coaches. I could almost have written your post, except that my son is a junior and I'm not sure how much my son has thought about diversity as a critical factor. He's spent time looking at the rosters of the DIII schools he's interested in, trying to glean a sense of how competitive they are as soccer players. Sometimes they list details about what club teams they played for in h.s. and whether they were in ODP. It's easier to get a sense of the academic competitiveness of the schools. (My son has gotten a number of recruiting letters from the soccer coach at Methodist University in Fayetteville, NC, but it's clearly not an academic fit.)</p>
<p>We're in the less fortunate positition of being a bit too far just to drop in on the Swarthmore, Haverford or any NESCAC coaches, so he's emailed some of the coaches and is trying to figure out if there are any camps or other ways to get looked at by those coaches. Also, although it's DI, my son has been in touch with the Davidson coach (clearly the least diverse of any school of its type). And he's been looking into Emory's program.</p>
<p>Although maybe too large for your S, Carnegie Mellon might fit the bill for him. My nephew, class of '05, played soccer there and now my neice does as well.
Both absolutely love(d) the school- bioengineering for him, economics for her.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nescac.com%5B/url%5D">www.nescac.com</a></p>
<p>best combination of academics and sports anywhere</p>
<p>WashU sounds like a great fit. D3 - ranked in top 20 last year for men's soccer - suburb of a medium size city - medium size research university - great academics - good diversity and very happy students. I have a student that plays varsity sports there and has been very happy with the experience. Likes D3 because "kids play because they want to play not because they have to play".</p>
<p>
[quote]
We're in the less fortunate positition of being a bit too far just to drop in on the Swarthmore, Haverford or any NESCAC coaches, so he's emailed some of the coaches and is trying to figure out if there are any camps or other ways to get looked at by those coaches.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not just to get recruited, but ideally to find a Div III coach who can provide a bit of an overview. Most of these coaches have a good idea (from winning and losing recruits) what types of players are going to be a "tip" at which schools. A conversation over a cup of coffee, early enough (like in the summer or very early fall) could really help a kid understand the lay of the land, both in terms of admissions and the time commitment ratio of academics/sports -- for not only Div III but for some of the Div I Ivy League programs. </p>
<p>That's important. If soccer is one of the kid's major EC's and he's not good enough to be recruited at a particular school, then he's just eliminated out one of the potential strengths of his application. I think it would also be useful for the student in trying to determine just what he's looking for in a college soccer program. Someone shooting for an MLS pro career will have different sporting objectives than someone shooting for medical school.</p>
<p>I was suggesting Swarthmore (although Haverford would be the same) simply because it's a manageable day trip. Pymen could drop him off at Union Station in D.C. and he's in the middle of campus, door-to-door in under 3 hours for under $100 round trip. Or, drive up for the day. Good solo trip, which is helpful in getting a kid to own the whole college search thing without mom and dad tagging along like eager puppies.</p>
<p>NCEPH's son could do the same thing at Davidson.</p>
<p>WashU is very appealing to my S, and he's been in email contact with the soccer coach. The problem we see with that program is that they sound as though they recruit very heavily from the soccer camp they run in the summer. It appears that it's only the WashU coaches that are there (if I'm wrong about that, I hope someone will correct me), so we're hesitant to put that kind of money (camp cost plus airfare) into exploring one school. If all of the hundred boys who attend the camp are interested in playing for WashU, that seems like kind of a long shot to sink that kind of money into.</p>
<p>My S actually has dropped in on the Davidson coach and has talked to him. The coach was very friendly and encouraging, but we know not to read too much into that, when the coach hasn't seen him actually play. Unless a kid presents a very weak soccer background (only j.v., only rec. level), however, I doubt a coach would be discouraging at that stage.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I doubt a coach would be discouraging at that stage
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, they won't be discouraging. </p>
<p>I think I'd go armed with specific scenarios. For example, ask the coach for some guidance on the differences in soccer recruiting at four representative schools: maybe contrast his school to a heavy DIV III sports school (e.g. Williams), a lesser sports school (e.g. a Swarthmore), a mid-size university (e.g. a Johns Hopkins or an Emory), etc. What kinds of players to they successfully recruit? What are they looking for in the academic/sports balance? That might be a way of initiating a more general "lay of the land" conversation rather than a "what are my chances?" conversation.</p>
<p>The challenge, it seems to me, is to determine the athletic reaches, matches, and safeties -- in the same way that any college search has to start with an assessment of academic reaches, matches, and safeties.</p>
<p>Also, from a parent's standpoint, I'd want to figure out how to get the offspring talking about how he or she pictures college sports fitting into the big picture. Obviously, playing soccer with a career goal of med school is different than playing soccer with hopes of a professional career and would dictate very different college programs. A program that is a career track for MLS might be terrible for a pre-med trying to juggle academics and sports. One student might want a nationally ranked soccer team; the other might want to specifically avoid nationally ranked teams.</p>
<p>When student/athletes are looking at the rosters and talking to coaches, check the positions of the other players on the roster. If your child is a GK and there are 2 soph or junior GKs the coach may not be looking for another GK next year. I know 2 admission offices that were given a list of needed positions by the coaches, so the adcoms for look for possible previously unknown recruits.</p>
<p>I'd wait until after the boy's junior season, then play in as many of the relevant tournaments as possible and send out game tape to lots of coaches. When you see who is interested, then you'll have a better idea of the choices available and can go from there.</p>
<p>Question: Is your son's club coach a good resource?</p>
<p>Thanks for the information on specific schools as well as how to approach coaches and make inquiries. It is very helpful. Although son is the youngest of four children, he is the only one that may potentially have a chance to be recruited as an athlete. My other kids' strengths and interests did not involve athletics as much. In my son's case, I do not think he will likely pursue playing soccer after college although I could envisoin him coaching as a side activity. I will have a candid talk with his current coach and get his assessment on whether son could be recruited at a Division III school.. If so, will ask what he thinks sons' chances might be at particular schools with strong programs. I think it also would be worthwhile for son to talk with some college coaches to involve him in the process, and perhaps help him to learn for himself what type of opportunities are available. Suggestion for him to go to Philly is an excellent idea. On the other hand, I know many schools have limited slots for athletes. Also, if my son were not recruited but still likely to make the team, how much influence could that make for admission to colleges he may enjoy playing for and attending for academic reasons? Can coaches suggest candidates to the admissions staff to consider who are not necessarily recruited? Although he has not taken his S.A.T. yet, he has done well on standardized tests in the past (including a practice P.S.A.T last year offered by his h.s.), so it is likely he should score at least at the median of most academically-oriented Div. III schools. I agree with EMM1 that it may be a bit early for son and us to look into these matters seriously but we just want to learn and start thinking about it, and perhaps visit some nearby schools next year. Thanks.</p>
<p>Thanks for the information on specific schools as well as how to approach coaches and make inquiries. It is very helpful. Although son is the youngest of four children, he is the only one that may potentially have a chance to be recruited as an athlete. My other kids' strengths and interests did not involve athletics as much. In my son's case, I do not think he will likely pursue playing soccer after college although I could envisoin him coaching as a side activity. I will have a candid talk with his current coach and get his assessment on whether son could be recruited at a Division III school.. If so, will ask what he thinks sons' chances might be at particular schools with strong programs. I think it also would be worthwhile for son to talk with some college coaches to involve him in the process, and perhaps help him to learn for himself what type of opportunities are available. Suggestion for him to go to Philly is an excellent idea. On the other hand, I know many schools have limited slots for athletes. Also, if my son were not recruited but still likely to make the team, how much influence could that make for admission to colleges he may enjoy playing for and attending for academic reasons? Can coaches suggest candidates to the admissions staff to consider who are not necessarily recruited? Although he has not taken his S.A.T. yet, he has done well on standardized tests in the past (including a practice P.S.A.T last year offered by his h.s.), so it is likely he should score at least at the median of most academically-oriented Div. III schools. Thanks.</p>
<p>pmyen - It really does sound like you're going through the same thought processes we are, and my S is not dreaming of an MLS career. Mine is academically in range for the top LACs, but certainly not a shoe in. Athletically, he's probably competitive, but probably not such a desirable player that the coaches would use up a "tip" and beg admissions to let him in. </p>
<p>One thing you might do is check out some of the camps that different schools run or are affiliated with. Some of them, like the one run by the Wesleyan and Yale coaches, have coaches from a number of schools. The coaches running that camp are incredibly nice, and they try to give the players a good idea at the end of the camp of where they fit with regard to DI, DII and DIII. There is a pretty competitive camp (elite 300, I think) on Swarthmore's campus that has coaches from Penn, Johns Hopkins, Maryland, Georgetown and some others (including Swarthmore). And I know Brown and Dartmouth run camps that include coaches from various other area schools, although I don't know anyone with experience at either of those. Lots of NC schools (Duke, Davidson, UNCG, UNC-CH, UNCW) run good soccer camps too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
On the other hand, I know many schools have limited slots for athletes. Also, if my son were not recruited but still likely to make the team, how much influence could that make for admission to colleges he may enjoy playing for and attending for academic reasons? Can coaches suggest candidates to the admissions staff to consider who are not necessarily recruited?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here's where it gets tricky. I can give you an overview of Division III recruiting, using Williams' numbers from an entering freshman class of 538 students:</p>
<p>Below Average Academic: 66 slots</p>
<p>These 66 slots are allocated to the athletic department and used for students with below average academics (basically would have no prayer of admissions without being recruited). The floor is somewhere around 1200 SATs. The coaches are not going to "waste" one of these slots on an applicant with high academics unless that recruit is a nationally ranked impact player (Tiger Woods, etc.). Assuming that the student is "admittable", the athletic department has essentially sole discretion to select these 66 players. A good chunk go to teams where it is difficult to get impact players without going below-average academically (ice hockey, football).</p>
<p>Average Academic: 36 slots</p>
<p>These are recruited athletes with average academics for Williams. They would be in the large middle-tier of applicants (lets say 1400 to 1500 SATs, etc.) who would need something special to be accepted over other good, solid, average applicants. The coaches submit a separate list of recruited names for this list and the admissions office factors that endorsement as a "plus" factor.</p>
<p>*Above Average Academic: *</p>
<p>These are students near the top of the applicant pool academically who also play a sport. The coach's sweet talk the recruits, but don't lift a finger to submit their names to the admissions office. Why? Because they are willing to roll the dice, knowing that a good number of these will be accepted based on academics. Coaches simply won't "waste" slots that could be used for recruits who wouldn't get admitted without a push. At Williams, this is another 50 or so "recruited athletes", bringing the total number of "recruited" likely 4-year varsity athletes to 152 or so out of the freshman class of 538.</p>
<p>Virtually all LACs have a similar process and similar categories, especially the first category where coaches pick their most "impact" players. For example, Swarthmore allocates 15% of the class (about 57 slots) to the coaches for impact players. Add on the players who get accepted anyway and you end up with about 88 likely 4-year varsity athletes in a freshman class of 375.</p>
<p>The big differences are:</p>
<p>a) how low will they go?</p>
<p>b) how much control does the admissions office relinquish to the athletic department?</p>
<p>c) How many athletes are attracted to the school?</p>
<p>d) How good are the athletes that are attracted to the school?</p>
<p>There is no one-size-fits-all answer for all students. For example, a soccer program that sends players to MLS, might have little or no opportunity for a non nationally-ranked player to even make the team, let alone get an admissions boost.</p>
<p>nceph,
Thanks for the advice on programs. Will definitely look into them. I agree. Your son's situation sounds very similar to mine!</p>
<p>InterestedDad,
This is a very enlightening post. Thank you. It would be good to let other families with student/athletes be aware of how selective LACs approach recruitment Perhaps you may want to start a post on college recruitment with that post-I think it would be very helpful to other families whose children may be involved in other sports.</p>
<p>First and foremost make sure the school fits. Not the soccer program. Alot of kids play a year or two and then bag it as it stops being fun. So if the only reason he's attending is for the coach or team, that's not reason enough. Coaches leave. </p>
<p>The other thing is just because it is D3 do not expect any less commitment than a D1 scholarshiped program. In season figure 6 days and 21 hours. Add in long bus rides. A good D3 or D2 will work very hard. Sometimes the only difference between teams is the size of the campus. </p>
<p>If your son has real dreams of med school or any other science oriented field, be aware. There is often a clash between lab times and practice times. Depending on the coach, that could be a problem. For mine, he made the team and unmade the team based on his sophomore class schedule.. to quote coach " I want soccer players first, students second." Thank goodness he's moved on to the east coast where he can pull that bull at a suny school. </p>
<p>Be aware when dealing with coaches even at D3, their liveyhood depends on the success of the team, not the success of your child. What they say while recruiting may not be the same as school starts. </p>
<p>For us, mine fell into LAX within days of his meeting with that coach. The LAX coach worked around lab schedules and UNDERSTOOD my kid's first priority was to get an education. </p>
<p>While I missed soccer, I learned to enjoy Lacrosse and how it allowed my S to be a student first, athelete second. As he heads off to med school, I can only hope that soccer coach gets what he deserves.</p>
<p>"Thank you. It would be good to let other families with student/athletes be aware of how selective LACs approach recruitment."</p>
<p>I think the key to the post is that, presuming the athlete is deemed able to do the work academically, and assuming the same desirable level of potential athletic performance, the LOWER the academic stats of the applicant, the more likely it is that the athlete will be both recruited and accepted. </p>
<p>Note that ID's numbers are for "recruited" likely four-year the athletes. If you add in those who are needed to play jv, club sports, and etc., the number of athletes in the class approaches 45%.</p>
<p>I'm going to disagree slightly with Opie. My son was told by division 1 coaches that they wanted about 30 hours a week of practice. Soccer was a 10 or 11 month a year endeavor. College was going to be about academics and soccer. There wasn't time for much else.</p>
<p>Division 3 has a much larger range of commitment. Some schools are year round but some aren't. Some programs are strong. Some are weak. Some programs have coaches that can help players get into the school, others don't. </p>
<p>Ask your travelling team coach where he thinks your kid can play. What level?
There is a big difference between Ohio Wesleyan and most division 3 teams.</p>
<p>Ask where players from the program in past years have ended up.</p>
<p>If you play ODP at the state level or higher, coaches will be interested in you.
If your travelling team is strong, plays the right tournaments, and your kid plays well, coaches will be interested in you.</p>
<p>Most division 3 schools have tiny recruiting budgets. Most times, decisions on who these schools want doesn't occur until after Dec of senior year. Don't be shocked if you are not getting the communication you want, when you want.<br>
Make a highlight tape of your kid. Because of small budgets, sometimes a highlight tape will work.</p>
<p>Schools want players that can afford the schools. If you are a full payer, it helps. A coach was recruiting outside his area and he was asked what is he doing out here? He said, "I know the players can afford the school."</p>
<p>Most coaches recruit in the area of the school. Just check the rosters of players and where the players are from.</p>
<p>This year, I saw the Oberlin and the Colorado College men's coaches keep their words. They said they could get kids into the school and they did. I'm sure there are more, but I saw these two coaches do it so I thought I would give them a plug. </p>
<p>I saw a coach or two not deliver. Since they aren't geographically important to you, and I don't want to slam anybody, I'll just say again, some coaches can't or don't deliver.</p>
<p>So have multiple options.</p>
<p>A couple of more observations. I was shocked that UCSB had a no partying policy. If you can't party at UCSB, why go there?</p>
<p>Some of these summer camps for division one schools aren't really recruiting camps unless they already know you. </p>
<p>Michigan's camp was very disorganized. </p>
<p>My memory is fading. I think Notre Dame's camp was pretty good for recruiting. Dartmouth was there along with other schools. I'm just not 100% sure it was Notre Dame, but I would check out their camp.</p>
<p>Go to camp before junior year in high school.</p>
<p>You can use soccer to get into a school you otherwise weren't going to get into.</p>