<p>"There is no denying the fact that in a BA degree program, your D will not have as much music in her daily schedule as she would in the BM degree at a large university or conservatory. One might also argue that such a program could place her at considerable disadvantage competing with those same students. I did say "could" but not "would" as the difference is up to the student.>></p>
<p>Actually that depends on the program and the musical instrument (I consider voice an instrument). We are also looking for a good college or university program where DD can continue her playing and studying (in her case on oboe). The school that WAS her favorite quickly dropped down. They have a music performance major a the college, and only one instrumental ensemble....an orchestra. While they "say" that DD will have "opportunities" to perform, the reality is that an orchestra will have two, maybe three oboe players. She (and we) find it hard to believe that those seats would in reality be given to a non-performance major regardless of the talent level. It is very wise to look for the numbers of ensembles, the numbers of students who are NOT performance majors who are in those ensembles, and also the level of the ensembles (e.g. if your aspiring musician has been playing at a high level, and they are now going to be offered a position in the least accomplished group on campus...that might not be what they really want). Now...in regards to looking for these programs....for EVERY college visit, DD has also spoken to someone in the music department (either the music adcom or the private music teacher or an ensemble director) to get the lay of the land. Believe me, they are very honest in their discussions. At one school (and not one with a particularly notable music department, I might add), DD asked if she could do any instrumental music study or playing. They responded in one word..."no". She scratched that school from her list. One thing that has been helpful for us is tips we got from her oboe teachers (both the summer one and her regular oboe teacher) about programs that they know of that will allow her to continue to play. BTW...this kid is a good player....principal oboe in the All State orchestra (as a junior this year), plays in two precollege programs (as principal oboe), was asked to play in a two college ensembles this year (schedule prohibited it but it was nice to be asked). She wants to play, loves doing it...but she does NOT want to major in music of any kind (although she has considered some music related fields...music technology, marketing, arts management...). Another thing we have found is that in MOST cases we would have to pay additional fees for her private lessons at the college level.</p>
<p>"There is no doubt that my D's internal motivation would provide the commitment necessary to follow through on the applied voice on a non-credit basis."</p>
<p>Does your D want to take voice on a non-credit basis? The teacher you e-mailed from her favorite LAC said that she could take voice for credit all 4 years. This school sounds like it would a very viable option for your D. As I suggested to you on a different thread, set up a private lesson with this teacher. The relationship with the private teacher should be, IMHO, the most important thing to look at in considering any music program. If your D feels a rapport with this teacher and she likes the liberal arts component of the school's curriculum, this may be the perfect place for her.</p>
<p>As Thumper says, "in MOST cases we would have to pay additional fees for her private lessons at the college level." This is true at many schools regardless of whether or not your child is majoring in music. Because the instruction is one on one, private lessons are more expensive for schools to provide than say, English Comp courses that have very large enrollments. I'd venture to say that most schools ask private music students to pay a surcharge for their lessons. Another thing to be aware of is that many music departments require that students pay for their own accompanists. Some schools provide student accompanists free of charge. The pianists do accompanying duty as part of their scholarship requirements. But, many schools don't have the funds to give enough piano majors scholarships to cover all of the accompanying needs. At those schools, singers and instrumentalists pay for their own accompanists. Singers usually need the accompanists more frequently than instrumentalists. My D, who is a musical theatre major, is required to have her accompanist present at every voice lesson and is expected to have her accompanist present at at least one practice session each week.</p>
<p>Dancersmom - My D would like to take other courses and/or double major, so she may wish to "save up" her available academic credits that she might allocate to those areas. The points about the cost of lessons and accompanyists are very helpful since we're going to visit the campus in a week and a half, so I'll be sure to ask.</p>
<p>One possible concern about the route that I've described above is that in most fields, one would be pushed along, instructed and inspired by the quality of one's peers. This would certainly be true for a theatre major who would learn from and have their own performance enhanced by highly-talented peers. I would imagine that the talent pool in the BA program in a LAC would be quite different from those at a high-profile B.Mus program. I don't know if this is as great a concern with classical voice, since the instruction and performance are most often solo?</p>
<p>gadad: I am speaking as the parent of an instrumentalist, not a voice major. However, the level of the other students around you, no matter what your major, WILL have an impact on you. Instruction is not always one-on-one. Most studios of all instruments and voice have studio classes, which all members of the studio are required to attend on a weekly basis. Students take turns each week performing for the class, with everyone usually having to perform at least once each semester, sometimes more often. After you perform your piece, the class critiques you as well as the teacher. I think the difference of being in the middle of the pack rather than at the top is more psychological in this sense in that it can motivate students to work really hard to be as good as others they hear around them.</p>
<p>Also, I imagine that a part of the training in classical voice WILL require small ensemble singing. And the ensemble will only be as good as the weakest member. That being said, if your daughter is not interested in being in a conservatory program, she may find that she is not very happy if she goes that route. Every kid is so individual. I will also say that my son found that there was no school that had everything he wanted. So he went for the teacher and has had no regrets.</p>
<p>Just an aside re: the college requirement/possibilities for non-majors who still want to pursue music study of an instrument (voice included)...You need to ask if there is an ensemble requirement or a studio class requirement. DD has found a variety of answers to this question. Every school she has queried has recommended participation in an ensemble, but only one requires it and that is only if you receive a scholarship (which this particular school awards for non-majors). Re: studio class...When dd asked this question, she was told that if she majors or minors in music she MUST attend studio class. However if she is taking lessons aside from other participation in the music department, she does not have to enroll in the studio class. DD says she would want to be in an ensemble. While she likes studying the instrument, she also wants a medium to USE that which she has learned. And Shennie makes a good point...the quality of the other players is important (especially, IMHO, if you come from ensembles of high quality). Re: payment for lessons....DS is a performance major who like Shennie's son went for the program which had the teacher he wanted to study with. He applied to 7 schools...NONE charged a fee for private lessons for their music majors. He looked at an additional 7 schools. NONE charged a fee for private lessons for music majors. ALL charged for lessons for non-majors, if they even allowed them to pursue private lessons. SO...you need to ask that question if it is a concern. And I can't emphasize more the need to take a lesson with the prospective teacher if that is at all a possibility. Remember also, that as a non-major you are less likely to get the "premier" instructor on your instrument as the majors will be assigned to studios first...you will be later. At some larger universities (U of Maryland, for example)....if you are not a performance major, your private lessons are taught by graduate students.</p>
<p>It is good to know that there are many music programs out there that do not levy a surcharge for private music lessons. Maybe charging an additional fee for private lessons is just the custom in my neck of the woods. I paid a surcharge for my older D's trombone lessons at the major state university she attended. She was a performance major. My H and I both paid a surcharge above and beyond the fulltime tuition rate for private lessons when we were music majors back in the dark ages :) I just looked at the website for the music dept. of the state U. closest to us. There is a surcharge for all private lessons. My younger D, who attends school in Florida, does not have to pay extra for her voice lessons, but she does have to pay for her accompanist. My older D did not have to pay accompanist fees at her school. The piano majors earned their scholarships by accompanying other students.</p>
<p>The prevailing attitude is that instrumentalists have to buy their instruments, singers have to buy (pay) their accompanists. The trick around this is to attend a school which has a collaborative piano program (accompanying) where the students are required to log many hours learning the repertory they will accompany. A particular irritation to me is that students, representing their university, are required to pay accompanist to do competitions off campus, but the school is quite eager to claim them in their publicity. Sometimes these same accompanists are missing their regular assignment of playing for the lessons of that same musician. No football team requires the players to pay the trainer to tag along!</p>
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<p>instrumentalists have to buy their instruments, singers have to buy (pay) their accompanists>></p>
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<p>Both of my kiddos are instrumentalist. They had to pay for their instruments AND they have to pay for accompaniests whenever they need them. DS has a jury each semester (pays for the pianist). He is playing a sophomore recital (optional...he wants to do this), and has to pay for the pianist for rehearsals and the performance. The piano students in the music program DO charge a very modest fee...but it's not free.</p>
<p>I stand corrected. That observations was from a piano faculty member, subsequently a dean at major music school. However, it cold be noted that during the current audition season, only the NYC conservatories (and Curtis) required pianist for string auditions. At many schools, accompanists are provided for most degree recitals, however, and many schools provide accompanists for lessons, the only way they can be assured of quality of musicians in the studio during lessons.</p>
<p>Lorelei, as a college voice professor and a professional in the field, what's your opinion of the route I proposed in post # 67 above? Do you see major pros and/or cons? - Bruce</p>
<p>Curtis provides accompanists for all voice, flute, violin, viola and 'cello auditions but requires that all other instruments (including double bass) perform auditions without accompaniment. Everyone is charged a $120 audition fee, in addition to the $135 application fee, whether or not an accompanist is provided. The accompanists are generally members of staff and you do not get to rehearse with them before the audition. </p>
<p>I have heard some of the Curtis staff accompanists play for masterclasses and recitals and, as you might expect, they are quite good.</p>
<p>At Eastman, all piano majors are required to accompany a minimum of 2 students each semester. Some end up doing more. However, there are not enough accompanists to go around for all the students, so some students end up having to pay. My son is lucky enough to have an excellent accompanist so he has never had to pay for one as an undergrad. He also did not need an accompanist for any of his auditions.</p>
<p>What do you think about the vocal performance programs at UCLA, UCSB, UCSC, USC and Oberlin? My S (a bass) wants a career in opera, but as an undergraduate, he wants to double major or at least minor in an academic subject. He has therefore applied only to programs within a university or in the case of NEC and Peabody, affiliated with a university via a double degree program. DS is particularly interested in UCLA. We would be grateful for feedback.</p>
<p>Oberlin has an excellent classical voice program and D also applied to double major in an academic area and voice. She was accepted, but chose Rice. She liked Rice's location, weather and voice department better.</p>
<p>Lorelei, I have tried to send you private messages but for some reason they don't go through. I really appreciate your perspective...
Last week I took d to her first college visit: boston conservatory. We didn't really have a good sense of the difference between bc and nec until we actually went there. The we sites make every school loos so good, and don't show any warts at all. To me, bc seemed intimate, but also (no bookstore or even cafeteria, and a very tiny snack bar area) cramped for space. D was able to get a private lesson with a teacher at bc, which was valuable not only to get a feel for bc, but also to get an unbiased opinion about the state of d's voice and how she's been taught. The comments the teacher made were all positibe: mature voice, healthy sound, etc. She had not one negative comment. She did stress enunciating vowels in the lesson, so maybe that's a sign d needs to work harder at that. Thinking over all the things you and others have written about voice teachers, and the comments from that bc teacher, I think d is very well served by her current private voice teacher, as far as developing her voice goes, even though d is not getting into nats competitions (teacher is not in nats). D is getting some solo work at our church, and will solo at her school choral concert this spring. She sang at a talent show at her school and afterward her hs music teacher told us that d could go to any school she wants for music perf, mentioned julliard and curtis as not reaches but likelies...of course as parents we were thrilled to hear this, but we want to be realistic too. There is a ton of competition out there. So, which schools(looking at New England, NY< NJ< PA< OH< DEL< MD>VA) do you think are best for a classical soprano voice major?</p>
<p>Julliard and Curtis are not likelies for anyone! I'm surprised the voice teacher said that. Is your D going to enter ARTS competition next year as a senior? That is the most important hs music competition. None of the female vocalists from Interlochen (D's high school) got into Julliard her year, and that included 2 ARTS finalists and one runner-up.
We hated NEC when we visited, and D says most of the Interlochen kids who went are unhappy. Cleveland (CIM) is great for voice and the sopranos from Interlochen who went there are very happy. D is a mezzo, but she thought the voice faculty at Oberlin, Indiana and Rice (where she is) were tops.</p>
<p>Yeah, I figured we should take the teacher's comments with a large grain of salt...by the way that opinion wasn't from d's voice teacher but her hs choral and band teachers...hadn't heard of ARTS competition but d is game to compete, guess I should google that one and find out more. She is applying to Tanglewood, Interlochen and Oberlin's summer voice programs, so that should give her a more accurate idea of where she really stands in relation to her peers. Any other competitions or programs d should think about?</p>
<p>D went to Tanglewood the summer before her senior year. She auditioned for BU at Tanglewood. If your D goes to Interlochen, the voice faculty will give her a very accurate assessment. D's teacher at Interlochen tells all the kids (as do the instrument teachers) that Julliard, et al are a reach for everyone!<br>
Keep in touch with me.</p>