<p>I've got a curriculum question for all of you in the know. On this thread, we've talked mostly about high-profile vocal performance B.Mus. programs for which new students must audition (BU, Indiana, Oberlin, etc.). We've also addressed the idea of going to B.A. programs at top institutions (e.g. Yale, Columbia, LACs) and augmenting the B.A. by working with a voice instructor. I'm finding however that there's a middle ground. For some B.Mus. programs, one enters without audition a B.A. curriculum which includes lessons in performance. Then at the end of the first or second year, majors may audition to go on with the applied coursework necessary to complete a B.Mus. I've found that Wooster, Furman, Wash U, U. of Georgia, UNC-Chapel Hill, and others follow this mode.</p>
<p>I'm sure this wouldn't be the best choice for a serious intrumental musician, but on the surface it seems that it might be more appropriate for a vocalist who will not be able to practice as much as an instrumentalist, and whose instrument is still in the process of developing. Are these "delayed audition" B.Mus. programs inherently inferior for vocalists to those at which the slection process takes place during the senior year of HS?</p>
<p>Most music schools have ongoing "barrier" exams, meaning that the jury held at the end of the year is determinate as to whether the musician can continue in the applied area degree program, whether it be music education, church music, or performance. Some happen every year, some are determined at the end of the sophmore year. Further, most schools have pre-recital juries to determine if the musician is ready for prime time, i.e. does he/she know the music and can the perform it? Most often a delay is nothing more than a rude awakening to a student and they go on to a successful degree recital. Additionally some schools have an ongoing repertory list which must be satisfied before the student can achieve the degree. So, while your list of schools may publish that a decision is made at the end of the freshman or sophmore year as to whether the student can continue to get private lessons, it is also the case that almost every music degree program has that process. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, it happens than students can be tossed from their program at the end of the sophmore year, not allowed to even continue in music. Some students simply do not make the necessary progress and/or sometimes there almost seems to be a physical deterioration of the technique which is evidenced in the performance. It is extraordinarily painful for everyone involved, but it happens fairly often. Some schools may disguise by yanking the scholarships, others will just deny continuation in the degree program. Most will allow one other attempt, but it is not encouraged, thought to be more time and educational money spent and/or wasted.</p>
<p>So, by not requiring an audition for initial entrance, the Music Dept. or School is opting not to set a cutoff for the level of talent required to begin the program, and might therefore be more less demanding about what is required for continuation and who is permitted to complete the B.Mus.?</p>
<p>For the BM I would not count on it that the ultimate standard would be lower. There is some sense of self selection whereby students find their way to something else. But as all of us related to musicians/performers understand, there is no easy giving up the dream.</p>
<p>My daughter just got the thin letter from Curtis Institute. It did, however, say that the faculty was particularly impressed with her audition and encouraged her to try again next year. Are there any other Curtis rejectees out there who would care to say whether their letter contained such language? Is this what they tell everyone, or do they only say that to those who just missed the cut this time around?</p>
<p>BassDad-
Sorry to hear the disappointing news about Curtis. Our son received that similar thin letter last year from his top choice (not Curtis) and it was hard to interpret the language as well.</p>
<p>It's hard to know. And Curtis is such a reach for EVERYONE.
Hugs to your daughter; she must be quite accomplished.</p>
<p>It was a real honor even to audition at Curtis. She can go wherever next year and decide to give Curtis a shot or not, what a great position to be in! The repertory requirements were very extensive to prepare on top of a high school senior academic load (AP courses, etc.) and we were told that the international string students at the ages of 12-14 were technically so advanced, it was almost an impossibility for an American student who had carried any kind of traditional academic curriculum to compete. So be it. </p>
<p>I am not sure the American educational system is doing itself any favors by importing its string players. Many of the native players are left in the trenches, no money, no encouragement, and no opportunities. I wonder if the international students will stay here and raise the next generation of string players. It all trickles down to the local level, and this can be quite self destructive to what our educational system would like to offer to the communities they serve. </p>
<p>I have followed your saga of your daughter's various applications and auditions. Has she decided which offer to accept? Good luck to her, you, and your family.</p>
<p>We did indeed follow up. They only give the "great audition - please try again" letter to those students that they feel have a legitimate shot in the next year or two. Her teacher, a recent Curtis grad himself, was quite encouraged when he heard she got those remarks in the letter. She happened to have some very stiff competition this year for only one spot, including a Tanglewood Fellow looking to transfer after two years of college elsewhere, and another young man who had boarded at Interlochen for several years and spent the past year studying with a BSO player.</p>
<p>My daughter had never even touched a string bass five years ago, having been an indifferent piano and violin student before that, so we were simply amazed that she has gotten this far in such a short time. She is certainly not as technically advanced as some were at the Curtis audition, but her intonation is spot on and she plays with wonderful musicality. I think the faculty noted her rapid progress and are curious to see where she will be with another year under her belt.</p>
<p>The bass is not an easy instrument to take on an airplane and all applicants must audition live in Philadelphia, so that may discourage a lot of international students from even trying. The current bass section at Curtis has only a couple of international students out of about eight members. Quite a difference from the violins and cellos.</p>
<p>She has been accepted at Oberlin (non-binding Early Review in December) and recently got good news from Peabody. We are still waiting to hear from New England Conservatory and will decide among those two or three once we find out which teachers have accepted her into their studios.</p>
<p>She took the news in characteristic fashion by marching straight over to her bass and launching into a movement from the Bach cello suites - the part of this year's audition that she thought may not have been her strongest. She is already talking about reauditioning every year until she hits the maximum allowed age, if that is what it takes.</p>
<p>S has been accepted into the double degree programs at JHU/Peabody, Oberlin Conservatory/College and Northwestern. He is an opera singer-bass, (with strong clarinet, but that was not a part of his application process) and he is also an excellent academic student, so he wants college to be a chance to explore before it becomes an opportunity to focus. That is the reason for the double degree programs. Do any of you have experience with these programs? Have your students or their friends found them to be exciting, possible, enjoyable, or basically a dare? Is any social life possible?</p>
<p>D was seriously considering the double degree programs but ultimately chose to go straight vocal performance (soph at Rice). The double degree programs vary a little in terms of which core subjects you do first. Some of the programs are set up so that you aren't doing much music (at least in D's opinion) for the first two years. We liked the Oberlin program. D did not like Northwestern at all for voice. I don't know anything about Peabody/JHU. It is a tough thing to take on, but you can always back down to one degree if it doesn't work out. With the choices you presented, and an interest in academics, I would go with Oberlin. The conservatory is right on the campus which will make all the logistics easier.</p>
<p>My D has the same concern about voice/opera and academics, so I've been calculating the hours required for the B.Mus. in vocal performance at various schools as a percentage of the number of hours required for graduation (usually 120 - 136). On the high end (university, not stand-alone conservatory) is Carnegie Mellon with about 94% of the hours dedicated to music. On the low end was Furman with 56%. Oberlin was 80%, Northwestern 67%, and I couldn't ever find JHU's catalog - their actual Music curriculum is the most hidden from online view that I've ever tried to find. Assuming that as a college-related conservatory it's more like Oberlin than NWern, NWern would seem to offer more room within the regular curriculum for academic exploration than the other two (although that's a function of the fact that NWern students take four courses per quarter - a total of 12 a year - instead of five courses x two semesters). If it takes him more like five years for a double degree, he's got to weigh the value of that against five-year B.Mus./M.Mus. options.</p>
<p>First of all, if you have not already checked out the voice teachers, that should be a prime concern. Has your son expressed a preference for a teacher at any of the schools? Even within well-known music schools, one faculty member's methods and results may be very different from another's. If your son has professional aspirations in music, selecting a teacher will be of utmost importance.</p>
<p>Second, most double degree programs are rather rigid in the first couple of years. There are so many mandatory classes that must be gotten out of the way for both majors, that there may not be a whole lot of time for exploration for a while. In fact, if you wind up changing the non-music major after the first year, you could easily be in for the five-and-a-half or six year plan. If you have not already done so, I recommend that you go to the web site of each college and compare the double degree curricula, noting how much flexibility is provided at each.</p>
<p>If all else is equal, JHU and Oberlin are vastly different environments, as you certainly know if you auditioned in person. Oberlin has the advantage of compactness - it is not a long walk to get to anywhere else on campus from the Conservatory. The suburban/rural setting is fine for some but not so great for others. </p>
<p>JHU and Peabody are on separate campi. They run a not-very-frequent shuttle bus between the two, and class scheduling can be an issue. The neighborhoods are a bit dicey, particularly around Homewood and once you leave the Mount Vernon area a few blocks around Peabody. I felt a bit uncomfortable on an evening stroll with my daughter about halfway between Peabody and the Inner Harbor area, even though I grew up in a similar neighborhood in Philadelphia.</p>
<p>I have never been to Northwestern so will let others comment on it.</p>
<p>operamom -- I concur with gadad -- CMU definitely has the highest # of hours required for the BM degree. My D's hs teacher teaches there and we looked at the music school very seriously. CMU makes it quite difficult, and, imo, almost impossible to take other courses outside of the music school. If you are very interested in the sciences/math, in addition to music, for your outside courses (or double-major), CMU is very strong but you would probably need 5 years to complete everything. IMO CMU is very weak in courses outside of the sciences (though they have a cross-register option with University of Pittsburgh down the street). Of Oberlin v NWU -- I agree with gadad, NWU has more leeway for courses outside of music (but it still could take you 5 years to pursue a double-degree or an in depth minor). Although Oberlin touts the double-degree in its promotional literature, it takes a very disciplined (and self-starter) student to make it happen - imo the college and conservatory have an uneasy 'truce' between them. My D did not apply to NWU (she did not like the facilities and didn't 'connect' with a teacher) and, for the reasons above (in addition to teacher choice) concerning the double-degree, she chose Lawrence U/Conservatory for their 5 year double-degree BM/BA. I should also note -- if your S is interested in study abroad (either for music or liberal arts), both CMU and Oberlin very seriously frown down upon it (because of the restrictiveness of their sequential music curriculum).This option would probably be more realistic at NWU. Sorry -- I have no knowledge of JHU/Peabody -- my D did not pursue it because the 'shuttling' between campuses (ala Eastman/Rochester) did not appeal to her. I would emphasize to you and your S that teacher availablity/choice and 'fit' are crucial for your final decision. GOOD LUCK!</p>
<p>Operamom, my son is a senior at Peabody in a 5-year BMus./MMus. program. He's finishing up a B.Mus. in Music Composition and is almost done with (one more semester for student teaching) a B.Mus. in Music Education; he'll have his M.Mus. in Composition in 2006. He's also doing a minor in conducting, just in case he gets bored. This over-programmed, self-driven young man said that, frankly, he thinks you'd have to be insane to try and do concurrent degrees at JHU and Peabody. The number of hours per day/week that a Peab. student needs for classes, homework, personal rehearsal and choral/ensemble rehearsals, not to mention time to actually eat and occasionally sleep make it next-to impossible to double-degree in anything other than the joint Music Tech. program. He didn't think that running back and forth between the two campuses was such a big deal - the shuttle bus picks you up right on the corner, runs constantly all day and well into the night, and his girlfriend did it for her freshman year until she changed her major - but rather, the problem is that each degree is so demanding of the student's time that there literally isn't enough time to do both. You need to assume that a double-degree program will require at least 5 years to complete, and even then don't expect to have much of a life outside of the classroom and the rehearsal room. One of the best things about attending a music school - conservatory or not - is the chance to attend both student and faculty recitals/concerts, not to mention getting cheapie last-minute student tickets to performances of local music groups. If too much homework/rehearsal means that you can't experience the music around you, then this is not a worthwhile music OR college experience. </p>
<p>I don't know how double-degreeing works at other schools, but I've rarely heard anything positive about the process. While it seems like this should be the answer to the question of how to get a music degree while still experiencing "college life" and deciding whether one wants to actually be a musician after all, I've found (from talking with DS's friends) that it's generally better in the long run for musical kids to make a decision about what direction they want their lives to head, and then go with that decision. My daughter sings, always has and always will, but she knew that her voice was not going to provide a livelihood and went into Elementary Ed. instead. Likewise, my son could no more have given up writing music than he could have flapped his arms and flown to the moon, so a conservatory was where he needed to be. Your son can certainly give the double-degree route a shot, but tell him not to be disappointed with himself if he decides to drop one degree/program after a semester or a year. He may be one of the lucky, driven few who can successfully complete both programs while retaining his sanity, but there IS a reason why most of the schools make double-degreeing so difficult.</p>
<p>Oh, and for what it's worth, the area between Peabody and the Inner Harbor isn't that bad. I've walked it any number of times and never felt concerned for my safety, and the Peab kids are back and forth like yo-yos. However, there are definitely parts of Baltimore that you want to avoid!</p>
<p>Hi, i'm actually a student, but I'm very interested in this post. I'm actually an advanced flutist, and I've already had experiences that have shown just how competitive my instrument is, which really stinks :(. These have ranged from 3rd chair out of 50 to getting in the 2nd round but not making the band out of 90 flutes. I also play piano at an advanced level. I am undecided about what I want to do in college. I figure it will be a waste of my progress and talent to stop, especially since I am enjoying music a lot more lately and I want to keep playing, but I know I'll never have the dedication to go pro. So, I was thinking of getting a music minor, or perhaps do music education. I have several questions about music in college which you could all hopefully answer.<br>
* Is it easy to get private lessons when you are not a music major? Does this require an audition?
* How are music minors?
* What are some good schools in the eastern half of the country that aren't conservatories, but have good, but not cutthroat, music programs, especially for flute and piano. I really want to join a school symphonic band and orchestra, so is that difficult when not a music major?
* Do you have any other helpful information about pursuing music but not as a major? Especially when one plays common instruments?</p>
<p>Look for a school which has a marching band, and they have a supply of piccolos for you to use. In fact, that might be a good way to look for a school without a strong conservatory approach to music, but which will provide you with performance opportunities. Every school is looking for pianists, especially ones who enjoy and are good at accompanying.</p>
<p>Has NEC mailed letters yet? We have heard nothing (we're in Southern CA).
The first that S heard of his Thornton School acceptance was yesterday when he received a letter telling him he was in the half of the class that did NOT get $ award.</p>