<p>Sorry to butt into this discussion again, but the point about rich private school kids being somehow "expected" (in an admissions context) to take part in expensive programs caught my attention. Surely colleges have to realize that not all private school students are in fact affluent? I attend a $25,000/year prep school courtesy of my parents' employer. Others have scholarships, and yet others have parents who work two jobs struggling to make ends meet, but who recognize the importance of their children's education. As a blanket expectation, it seems foolish, if not absurd. Does anyone have concrete examples of this, or is it simply a conjecture?</p>
<p>My statement was conjecture. I would guess that somehow in your college application your family's circumstances would come out - in your essays or through other parts of application. Schools that are need-blind claim not to look at parental financial statements when making decisions, but if an application asks whether you're applying for aid and you check that box, then they would of course know you're at least looking for aid. </p>
<p>I think, too, that the discussion wasn't that kids had to attend expensive programs - more that if a kid comes from a privileged background they should have the wherewithal to find something constructive to do in the summer. There are free programs and programs that provide financial aid. Personally, I think holding down a job during the summer shows maturity and responsibility. No one has to spend the summer at the mall - unless they're working there.</p>
<p>lefthandofdog, thanks for clarifying. I hadn't thought of the financial aid thing.</p>
<p>Raichel: We took our daughter on tours up the East Coast to see some schools in the early summer before her junior year of h.s. At the time, she found something wrong with nearly every school we encountered, but we got all the way up to RI, and one look at Brown, and she fell in love with it. By the time we returned home, she looked online to see if they had summer programs available (this was already the end of June). She managed to find a 1 week course in their summer program for late July, so she went. She wanted to get a sense of the campus, and though a week is very short, she did find some very nice girls to hang out with in her dorm. However...the dorm they put them up in was horrendous. It was a rainy week, and by the end of it, the carpet in her room was soaked. I don't even like to think about the mold spores. She was on the bottom floor of a very leaky room, close to the main street, with windows that had no bars and no locks. The building was dismal, dank, and really falling apart. I felt bad leaving her there. Honestly. This particular building should be razed.</p>
<p>She did mention the heavy party atmosphere, but I'm afraid that impression was overshadowed by the truly awful housing. No matter. She decided to apply for a Community Leadership Scholarship for the next summer, essentially a merit scholarship based on transcripts and essays, including why you think you'd make a good 'community leader.' So she was really happy when the Dean of the Summer Program called to say she was one of 8 chosen for the next summer. So she attended that next summer, on their dime, a 3 week program. She loved the course, was much happier in the 3 week program, found the students much more engaged--interested and interesting (than in the 1 week program), and they put her in a much nicer dorm nearer the center of campus. However..that dorm is actually for a sorority during the year. But the class was great, and she met people with whom she has stayed in contact. One, in fact, is visiting us this summer. Fortunately for her, the 2 girls who were in the dorm room beside her, turned out to be non-drinking, non-partiers, so they all hung together the entire 3 weeks and had a great time. But she did talk about the overwhelming amount of drinking and drugs that went on there, really rampant. And that summer, 3 of the 8 Community Scholars were sent home for drugs and drinking. </p>
<p>Though she enjoyed the 3 weeks there, the experience made her wonder how much of a party school Brown is normally. Obviously, the kids who are there in the summer aren't Brown students, so who knows. They give a big speech to students and parents when everyone arrives--all about responsibility and drinking and drugs--but not sure it makes a dent. They do give these kids a tremendous amount of freedom. My daughter did know 2 girls who went home after 1 week that summer, because they were so unhappy with the party atmosphere. </p>
<p>Her main problem with Brown, though, was that the facilities seemed to be falling apart. She still liked the school and really liked Providence, so she applied anyway. And even though she had been a Community Leadership Scholar and had a great written letter from a Brown instructor who taught the course, she was not accepted. (And she was not one of the 3 who were sent home for drugs and drinking!) Now she did not go to a Brown summer program to improve her chances of getting accepted. Rather, she went to get more of a feel for the campus and Providence, and see what the classes--at least in that program--were like. And that second summer--as I said--was on their dime. Still....kind of gives you an idea of how very little those summer programs matter--certainly to the adcoms. In the end--not to bash Brown--but as much as she liked the school, she could never square the 'fraying at the edges' problem Brown seems to have and the $40,000+ per year price tag. Sounds a bit shallow, I guess, but if you're gonna spend that kind of money, you may as well go to a school that has great facilities, including dorms. </p>
<p>Anyway..we would never have sent her to that 3 week program had Brown not been paying for it. I do think these programs can give a student a sense of what the school and campus and town are like, but I think if one is looking for a way to spend a summer that will look impressive on a college application, I don't think those programs are the way to go.</p>
<p>I just want to add, after reading more of this thread, that I agree with sillystring in that these summer programs on college campuses do seem to make a smoother transition to college dorm living. After attending those summers at Brown, particularly the 3 week program, my daughter did come away with a tremendous amount of confidence, knowing that she could handle a lot more than she thought she could. So that's a big plus.</p>
<p>And that's the value of summer college programs...allowing high school students to experience living away from home.</p>
<p>5 years ago, I called the Yale admissions office inquiring about the summer program at Yale. I wondered if success at that program would help my daughter when she applied to Yale in the fall.</p>
<p>I'll never forget the adcom's answer - "No, it won't help a bit. Send her to your local community college."</p>
<p>I have to say that I'm surprised at the experience of jack's daughter in terms of the dorms at Brown. My daughter graduated from Brown, and honestly, all three years of her dorm life provided beautiful living situations.(off-campus 4th yr.) The first year, her dorm was dubbed "hotel St. Andrews" because it was so nice...large, airy rooms with a sink in each one and a walk in closet...no joke! The second year, a suite, with a really cute common room with a (nonworking) fireplace. The third year, a single in a really charming building--the room so large she bought an extra large easy chair to help fill it. So, I guess she lucked out, or things are just very variable at Brown.
As far as drinking goes, one of the main reasons my d. picked Brown was because of the acceptance and prevalence of minimal or non-drinkers. In fact, her sleep-over at Williams during the application period (another school she seriously considered) gave her a distinctly opposite impression. So, I think the summer program is definitely not a good barometer for this aspect of student life at Brown. In fact, my daughter did attend their summer program as well: the dorm was fine, but her social experience was not fantastic. But her experience socially as an undergrad truly could not have been better.</p>
<p>edit: I think my using the word "prevalence" is an overstatement regarding minimal/non-drinkers at Brown, but those that aren't into drinking can feel totally comfortable there.</p>
<p>Donemom: As I said in my earlier post, the kids who attend these summer programs--at whatever school--are obviously not the same students during the academic year. I agree that the summer programs are probably "not a good barometer" for what student life would be like at Brown. </p>
<p>As far as the dorms, her second summer dorm was very nice, but she was skeptical that all dorms would be equally so, since that one was for a sorority during the year. My daughter did "hear" that there were some other really nice dorms there, but she never actually saw them. She suspected that, perhaps, they put those summer students who are spending the entire 7 weeks, in the really nice dorms. I don't know. Her other problems with less than desirable facilities also had to do with the gym and other areas of the campus, I think. Again, not a big deal in the realm of things (academics), but when thinking of that hefty price tag, less than desirable campus facilities start to take on a whole new meaning. And the dorm room she stayed in that first summer, trust me, was abysmal. Brown should undertake some serious renovation on that particular building, or tear it down to the ground and start over. Certainly, the bottom floor of that particular dorm should be shut down.</p>
<p>Once again, let me say that she wouldn't trade that second summer for anything. The course and instructor were impressive; she made some very good friends; and though she wasn't lacking in confidence before, she did come away from that experience with a stronger sense of herself (I think) and more confident in what she can handle. In that regard, it was very worthwhile.</p>
<p>The value of the summer programs depend on the particular program, the particular courses and the needs of the student. If you send your kid to a non-competitive program filled with affluent students who are studying a light weight subject you cannot expect it to mirror an actual college experience at a highly selective school. The Brown program is upfront about it being a fairly unstructured program, its a huge program as these things go, and has many short, not terribly serious courses.
I think anyone who spends time really studying the literature that the colleges provide can get a sense of where on the spectrum the program is.</p>
<p>My D didn't particularly care for the dorms, but not for the reasons above. She didn't care for the linoleum floors and concrete block walls. It was very 'industrial' looking, at least the first summer. </p>
<p>Again, let me say that the short courses are clearly 'summer camp' and include students as young as freshman. The 7 week courses are a completely different ball of wax. The students are largely regular Brown students or continuing ed students. D had study group with 3 Brown juniors for one course. They became good friends and they recruited her hard. As with any college situation, you have to find your nitch. D spent a lot of time at Starbuck's reading (courses required heavy reading). They all new her. The prof's were exceptional, especially the second summer. The Brown summer dean encouraged the kids to shop the courses the first week. </p>
<p>As to helping your Brown app, Brown has a reputation for turning down Brown summer students. We were surprised at the admit. I do think it makes a difference if you take real academic courses and make A's. By the way, even though both prof's offered to write recs, we didn't take advantage of that. We thought that teachers that knew D better would make more of an impression than a 7 week summer prof. </p>
<p>The freedom is well advertised in the Brown summer literature and website. They literally treat them like college kids. Obviously, many kids aren't ready for that level of freedom and fail to handle it. They do have floor RA's that you can ask for help, but you have to ask. I called the dean the first summer about the roommate situation and had to insist that they get involved. In the end, they did it through a floor meeting with the RA's and no one singled out. It would be nice if they did more to separate the 17 year olds from the 14-15 year olds.</p>
<p>mommamia: I have to say that from our research/experience, the majority of the summer programs at universities are non-competitive and, most likely, filled with "affluent students." And except for the non-competitive aspect, I would expect that most schools that cost $40 to 50K per year will also have a similarly strong presence of "affluent students." </p>
<p>At any rate, while the summer college programs cannot mirror "exactly" an actual college experience, they do offer up a mix of experiences that a kid will undoubtedly run into while at college-- including, the drinking and drugs; meeting a wealth of new people; being around a different set of students from all over the world within a classroom setting (as opposed to the familiarity of students at the home high school); navigating a city or a small rural town (whatever is different from what you're accustomed to); and taking responsibility for yourself in a totally unstructured environment, etc.</p>
<p>bandit: Just to clarify...my daughter had recommendation letters sent from the high school; the letter from the Brown instructor was something he did for all his students, but they were very detailed and individual to the student, so she included it. Seemed pointless not to do so. No matter. In the end, and especially after seeing some other schools, it wasn't very high on her list anyway.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I was not about to allow my 15 year old to have two and a half months of unsupervised and unstructured "recreation"
[/quote]
Ditto. While I gave my S several choices of what he could do (academic, athletic, volunteer, travel, etc.) I made it clear that for at least part of the summer he WOULD remain active. I don't expect him to get up at 6 AM every morning, but I don't expect him to spend the summer waking up at 11, playing on the computer until 5, and watching TV until midnight, either. The end result:</p>
<p>Baseball kept him busy for the month of June (although he could sleep in most days)
He's off to visit old friends for two weeks (where he'll probably also sleep in)
He's then off to a Leadership Camp for two weeks (waking at 6:00 AM for physical training)
One week of family vacation at the Beach
One week "completely off"
One week Walt Disney World family vacation
Back to School (it goes by so fast)</p>
<p>He also is always "on call" for the local Volunteer Fire Department, and he has 10 book summaries to write for AP English next year. </p>
<p>All in all, I think it's a nice combination of relaxing, staying somewhat active, vacationing with family and being productive. </p>
<p>Having said all that, if he had wanted to attend an academic camp instead of the leadership camp I would have tried to make that work (within financial reason), but I would also have been fine with a baseball camp. I think it really does depend on the kid and what he/she wants to do. If that means academic camp, that's great -- I just don't think it makes sense to worry about what it will mean for college admissions.</p>
<p>Does anyone have any experience at BU Biotech Summerlab program?
This is the first year they're offering a residential option, I believe. Or
any info on Roger Williams U Marine Science Summer Lab Experience
program? Both run only one week in August. We know students attending both for the first time this year. D has longstanding involvement in water quality monitoring here and experince snorkeling/diving. Attending RW program for exploratory experience.</p>
<p>my rising jr is also at brown but in class from 9 to 3 and was overwhelmed at first with the work. By end of week got homework down to manageable level.</p>
<p>also was more than a little shocked by the "bad" element there -- lots of partying and little class time/work for most kids. maybe it depends on what course you take.</p>
<p>academically, it would have been a better experience if email with text requirements/homework/syllabus had been emailed directly to students home email instead of thru the brown intranet (no access, of course, until after registration -- that meant a lost day for everyone), plus i had to express reference texts from home that instructor requested</p>
<p>all in all, i'm not exactly pleased with the environment, but then, it's not over yet. fingers crossed, it will get better . . .</p>
<p>we aren't "affluent" & this was a real sacrifice but wanted to see something entirely different from our own backyard. if these party animals are representative of a certain element at the elite school (even if not the student body as a whole) maybe it's better to know in advance if you can stomach that sort of surrounding for 4 yrs</p>
<p>still, i'm disappointed in brown</p>
<p>I have nothing at all against affluent students. My point is that if parents can afford to send students to a quasi-academinc program with little structure it is going to attract a fair amount of spoiled kids with money to spend on drugs and alcohol. On the other hand, I know many very bright and serious kids from fairly well-to-do families who chose to do academic programs at universities this summer over other options--most are, however, taking month long or longer, intensive programs in their area of intended major and involve homework.</p>
<p>"I have nothing at all against affluent students. My point is that if parents can afford to send students to a quasi-academinc program with little structure it is going to attract a fair amount of spoiled kids with money to spend on drugs and alcohol."</p>
<p>I don't know about others, but I'd be pizzed as heck. The programs can spiel all they want about treating the kids like they do the college students, but the kids are still minors, and the programs are legally responsible for illegal acts committed on their grounds. You know what happens in most states if police find kids using drugs or alcohol in a parent's home?</p>
<p>It seems to me this is a health and safety issue - and the moment one of the kids ends up in an emergency room because of an alcohol overdose, that will be the end of the program.</p>
<p>I like the welcoming words of the Dean of the Summer College at Cornell regarding rules and safety. He said that when the kids call home using words like "totalitarian", "dictatorial", and "suppression of civil freedoms", they might only be slightly exaggerating! So far, so good - my dd hasn't seen anything like that listed here by others (or maybe she just won't tell Mom!).</p>
<p>Mini, if you sent your kid to a loosely structured program and your kid was foolish enough to drink him or herself silly, its really the kid and possibly the family's fault. These are pre-college programs, they don't pretend to be camp or even prep school. What about all the drinking that goes on at most colleges? Many of these kids aren't any older than the kids at the pre college programs, perhaps a year older. I think a parent who has any doubt about their kid's ability to use mature judgment needs to carefully assess the individual program and take a hard look at their child's readiness to participate in some of them.</p>