<p>SBdad,</p>
<p>I don’t know if this will be in any way relevant to your son, but here is a thread where some knowledgeable parents are giving an interview advice to a long time “CC kid”.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/852839-update-those-who-remember-me.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/852839-update-those-who-remember-me.html</a>
(He got the job)</p>
<p>Clearly your son has qualities companies liked, based on the fact that he got several call-backs and was even sent to HQ. I think he has difficulty with his interview skills. I’m guessing he isn’t aware of how important it is to “be likable” and that his academic skills are only one portion of what makes a good candidate (even though they helped to get him to interview). The interview process is terribly hard, it goes on and on and on and… The competition is fierce, and everyone seems “so nice” (on the surface). It’s very complicated and confusing to kids who are used to doing well in school, getting good grades, and knowing “how they stand”.</p>
<p>My kids watch the TV show, The Office, and from that I think they’re getting some sense of it’s like to be in a small office. (Everyone wants to be John Krasinski) Of course a TV show is far from reality, but he might enjoy how the characters learn to get along.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>All sorts of reasons for why this is happening. I’m a hiring manager, and at times I get just as frustrated as I imagine a lot candidates are. Positions get authorized and I initiate the process. After interviewing several people, and sometimes even after a second round of interviews, I’m told a hiring freeze was just put in place so “let’s hold off.” Meanwhile, I have anxious candidates waiting to hear back. I hate breaking the news as much as I hate the waste of time invested in a fairly intensive process. I can’t tell you how many times that cycle has been repeated. In Oct it was rush rush rush - I had several positions authorized (which we desperately need - business and profits are way up!) and everyone agreed with me to fill them by January. Shortly after, it’s down to two positions, and lots of uncertainty. Next, a freeze across the board - 0 positions now. The poor candidates who were so excited have no idea what hit them. I feel for them, but those are the current realities. </p>
<p>Today, I keep a running and ready list of my favorite prospects at my fingertips. Next time authorization comes through, and it will, I will pull the trigger within 48 hrs. and some fortunate soul will have a great job that he/she didn’t expect to land at that particular moment. </p>
<p>So I say don’t despair too much. I am guessing some of those rejections and no call backs were more related to internal channels than your son. If any of those employers are like me, they are chomping at the bit for a green light. Your son may still be at the top of someone’s list, and you never know when that call is going to come.</p>
<p>My guess, as someone who has been interviewing and hiring people for a number of years (past my fingers, running out of toes in counting them), is it is a combination of factors that are probably working against your S. A tough economic climate, along with things like having positions frozen, not really having positions, etc as other people have, also means companies are really, really picky with who they hire, and they probably have a ton of ultra high quality candidates they have to choose from, all of whom probably have great CV’s, grades, etc.</p>
<p>So when they are choosing, everything counts, and fit is right up there, personality, call it what you will. It is probably one of the more undefined areas of companies, but in general when they interview it is not only if they think the person has the skills to do the job, but fit in with whatever is going on there. I work in IT, and I have seen a lot of really, really topnotch talent who in some environments, like big banks and places like that, would work great, but in the high pressure/rapidly moving entrepeneurial environment that I work in, would not fit in well (as an example, though my firm is hard charging and such, the people are pretty laid back though serious about what we do, and someone who came in who was all about career building, icing in the notches in the belt and like would go over like a lead balloon (would do great at an investment bank, however). And as unfair as this sounds, a lot of time it comes down to gut instinct about that fit, after working with people you get the feeling of what will fly and what won’t. </p>
<p>Actually, I think the quote when the S said something like “Oh, I guess we are back to the prom queen, etc thing, I thought I was past that” is pretty telling to me. While I can understand the feelings (I wasn’t exactly king of the prom material myself), that also betrays something he is going to have to realize, that no matter how bright you are, no matter how many skills you have, awards, etc, in the end when you work someplace you have to work with other people, and personality and interpersonal skills mean a lot, as much frankly as being able to run a spreadsheet or whatever. It would be terrible if people are taken on looks alone, or being a glad hand charley, but in most job positions that isn’t true; however, because so many have probably as good or better cv’s, experience, skills and so forth, you need to be both the guy with the hashmarks and the person that others can work with and like. I have run into people who technically and experience wise were brilliant, but destroyed the chemistry of teams and companies because they simply didn’t value the interpersonal and saw everything as cold, hard “this is the right thing to do, the company is everything, etc”. (I want to add that I am not referring to the S in question, who I don’t know at all, I am offering hypotheticals). Mensa is full of people with incredible intellectual ability, and many of them on the other hand find themselves locked into dead end careers, limited job growth or expansion, and a lot of it is personality quite frankly. From my grad school days, there is also evidence that the ones who come out with the 4.0’s from high end schools, all the honors and whatnot, often don’t make the best employees, that the “avis students” as they have been called have the motto “we’re number 2, so we try harder”, which includes working with people. </p>
<p>I’ll give you something I think is an apt analogy. In the world of music, specifically but not alone classical music, there are these music students who just burn up the firmament, they have been playing high level repertory since they were 10, practice many hours a day,win competitions, get into high level music schools…and then founder.Music is always as tight as things are now for everyone, even in the best of times, and the competition is incredibly fierce the whole path.What is the difference between someone who makes it and doesn’t? In the end, it comes down to things that aren’t just about being technically superior; it is in being able to express the emotion of the music, of being able to connect to an audience as well as playing well. In an orchestra or group situations, a big part once you audition and get in, is how you work within the dynamics of the group (orchestras routinely have a 1 year probation period, to see if they work out, as well as interviews with orchestra members as part of the hiring process). It is no different in workplaces, it is identical.</p>
<p>Another key word that came up was when I heard “he gives long, detailed answers when asked a questions”. Having that kind of problem myself (take a look at this post and its length!), sometimes it is hard to frame things in short, simple statements, but that is important in an interview, something I have to be careful about like I just said. When someone gives long, detailed answers to questions, besides at times coming off like someone is a know it all, or someone full of ‘theory’, it also gives the interviewer pause, that in a work situation, will this person do the same thing? Will they when you need a quick answer go off on a long, involved discussion, when a yes or no would do? Will if given something to work on, will they analyze it to death and take far longer to do something then is necessary? As an interviewer, this is critical, when asked a question you want something more akin to bullet points on a Power Point slide, then William F Buckley writing on the decline of western civ:). The other thing about long winded answers is it often stops the interviewee from listening to the other person, and listening is as critical on an interview as talking, in taking in what the interviewer is saying and being able to really digest it and then talk about it, ask questions and so forth. Keep the answers on point, don’t try to impress the interviewer with depth of knowledge unless they ask for it, and otherwise listen and interact, that is a top 10 trick. </p>
<p>I would recommend having him see a career coach/counsellor, some of them are really, really good (if finding one, try to find people who have used them, these days a lot of people looking to get into an area with hot growth, are setting themselves up in the business…and many are poltroons…). A good one can analyze your son’s style and see where the problems are, and also when an interview comes up can help S with how to figure out the company culture from what has been written about it, and also observing when you go to the company to interview. Is everyone sitting intently at their cubes, working silently? Do you see people interacting, talking to together, laughing, and so forth? Culture can be picked up looking at the work space as you pass in, and can be used in determining how best you could fit in there. See how the interviewer interacts with you, is he/she formal, are they more low key? Do they come off as friendly and interested, or a functionary doing their job? Learn to read that, and it increases your chances. </p>
<p>I feel for him, I know what that kind of rejection is like, I spent more then a few months after being laid off looking for a new job, interview after interview, heard i was a strong candidate, etc, then nothing…figured out I was interviewing the wrong places, that didn’t fit me either. In a tight job situation you often don’t have that opportunity, so you have to make the effort to find how to fit in, come off as ‘one of the guys’ or whatever. Also tell him bad times don’t last forever, that if by some chance the internship doesn’t play out there is still plenty out there going down the road (yeah, in some fields like when in law school internships can mean a lot, or in investment banking and the like, but on the other hand, plenty of kids get jobs out of college who never interned anywhere). Frustration and bitterness can play out in interviews, it can some out unintentionally, so being positive and optimistic is the way to go, even though he may feel like Digger O’Dell or something. I wish him well.</p>
<p>Hugs to OP and his S…</p>
<p>I’m sending this thread to D…many terrific, timely, constructive, useful comments …especially the thoughtful one by Musicprnt…</p>
<p>I’m adding this to thread to my “CC gems file” for future use for D & S…</p>
<p>D1 just went through her round of interviews in a very competitive field. Her GPA was on the low side relative to other applicants, therefore she was not invited to interview for some positions. Out of 8 she interviewed for, she was turned down by 2 and she was known as THE GIRL around the campus. Her resume got her the interviews, but it was her people skills that got her the jobs.</p>
<p>Very early on in my career, I was a believer of as long as you were good at your job then everything else was noise. I was wrong. I was passed up for promotions because “I was difficult to work with.” I didn’t have anyone to show me otherwise, but I was a fast learner, after it happened to me a few times I wised up.</p>
<p>With my kids, since they were little I made sure they were comfortable with adults. I made sure they were around when we had people over for dinner, especially once they became teens. Often at dinner table they would have some very intense conversations with our friends, but always respectful. My kids speak differently with adults than with their friends. It comes naturally to them when they see adults to address them as Mr., Mrs., and either shake their hand or give them a hug. So many young people get very nervous around adults (a lot of twitching, no eye contact), or they couldn’t find anything to say because they couldn’t relate. They would only grunt if an adult were to ask them something they were interested in. In preparation for our kids for interviews, it wouldn’t hurt if they were comfortable around adults and able to carry on some small talks.</p>
<p>I practiced with D1 for hours each day for a week prior to her interviews. She knew her resume cold so she could talk about it in few minutes, but always highlight activities she wanted interviewers to know. Her two main ECs were ballet and her sorority, she stressed one over the other depending on who the interviewer was. She had few jokes that she told over and over again that everyone loved. She read total of 4 papers on the field she was interviewing for, and knew those topics well. She didn’t go on and on when asked because she didn’t want to appear as too much of an expert in front of her interviewers. As a student, she just needed to appear to have interest and aptitude. On the other hand, as a math major, when they asked her about papers she’s written she was very much of an expert (she went back to re-read some papers she’s written in preparation for her interviews). She also went on the internet to download a list of questions most interviewers would ask and we practiced on how she would answer those questions. This may all sound too robotic or rehearsed, and some people may say “just be yourself and let yourself come through.” The problem is during an interview it is a stressful situation, it’s hard to come up with an answer if one has never thought of it. D1 really had a good idea of what her strengths were after we went over those questions, so during her interviews she was able to keep on driving those points home.</p>
<p>I am also in the process of interviewing for a bigger role within my firm, even though it was “them” who suggested the job to me. I had the luxury of setting up the interviews myself. I decided to meet with the most senior person first. My strategy was if I couldn’t get pass this guy it wouldn’t matter, but if I could charm him then everyone else would just fall in line. He turned out to be a person who liked to give advice. Since this would be an expat position I asked him about his experience in living around the world. We talked about his kids and my kids. We probably talked about the job and my qualifications for 15 minutes. After our meeting he wrote an email to everyone to meet with me as soon as possible. Once I got his thumbs up, all other interviews were rubber stamp.</p>
<p>As mentioned by many posters here, you don’t have to be a prom king/queen to get a job. But the ability to relate and read people are great skills to have, even after landing a job.</p>
<p>Great advice, Oldfort!</p>
<p>Wonderful advice, just wonderful.</p>
<p>I have passed this on to DS and his is greatly appreciative.</p>
<p>I do want to say one thing about the “prom king” comment. I really don’t think the comment was made with any bitterness, more of a sense of resignation.</p>
<p>DS is a pretty self aware guy and does a good job of understanding his strengths and weaknesses. He took this into consideration when choosing a career path, picking a career that was more founded in objective, measurable benchmarks (how many actuarial exams have you passed?) then personality. He has heard many comments that actuaries are generally prized for their technical skill and can sometimes not be the most scintillating folks (I mean no offense – after all, I’m a CPA). </p>
<p>I think that’s why this process has been particularly unsettling to him. However, the actuarial field is, after all, the business world where interpersonal skills play a pretty big role. I have confidence that with the help of the professional career counselor he is using and his own ability to adapt and change, he’ll get there.</p>
<p>What’s the difference between accountant and actuary? Account has personality.
I was an actuary. I only managed to pass 5 exams. </p>
<p>Your son is very lucky to have you by his side.</p>
<p>Great post, oldfort. This is an excellent thread. It won’t be helpful to My son, since he knows everything :), but there is some awesome advice here.</p>
<p>I just want to add that new grad and intern interviews seem to be tougher than they when I was looking. My s had grueling behavioral interviews…some over the phone…as a screening tool. As time went on, he developed his interviewing skills and did much better. But he shared some of the questions…and I think it really helps to prepare your approach and have some stories ready to go. Examples: “Tell me about a situation where you helped someone and they didn’t know it” and “Give me an example of a a team experience where you stepped up and took charge.” </p>
<p>It’s interesting to think about the wide variety of skills you need to be able to interview effectively. It’s easy to tell somebody that they need to be “likable” but so hard for some folks to put that into action…especially analytical introverts. It takes a LOT of practice. I’m an introvert who comes across as an extrovert on interviews and in business meetings. This did not happen overnight. </p>
<p>For the OP, I do again suggest trying to find a skilled counselor who can help your son. A family member hooked me up with a counselor when I was 21. He took me through a mock interview and then evaluated my performance. Brutal. (You’re not looking me in the eye, you’re twirling your hair, your answers are tentative, you use lots of filler word like “umm”). I cried when I left. I’m not sure it has to be such a critical experience…but I will say that man had a deep influence on me going forward. I am darn good interviewee now…and a good interviewer too.</p>
<p>Hahaha odfort. Thanks for the wisdom and the humor.</p>
<p>Actuaries are people who couldn’t handle the excitement of accounting.</p>
<p>Toneranger, that is exactly what we are doing - professional counselor. Boy can I relate to you. I was told once, “as a true introvert you can fake the extrovert thing pretty good.” Yes, but only for so long - it’s exhausting.</p>
<p>There are positions where personality doesn’t matter as much,where technical skills and such are the value (quants, or quantitative analysts, the gurus who figure out risk formulas and trading strategies for wall st hedge funds and the like, come to mind), but an additional thought is when does that kick in. Internships are like first jobs, you don’t hire into a company as a full blown quant, or actuary (least as far as I understand it, not my area of expertise) or Systems Analyst or what not, you hire into an entry level position and move up. Quite honestly, the first jobs/internships can be the hardest ones, because a candidate is coming in with relatively little background generally (even with all the EC’s, etc), and as an interviewer I or anyone else doing it has to discern a lot, from a resume, some questions in an interview and then generally making consensus. Believe it or not, it is just as hard on the other side to try and figure out what makes someone tick and such…</p>
<p>And entry level jobs means learning a whole new skill set, and means interacting with people to get answers and support them and such. Down the road it is possible that certain positions (like Quants on Wall St) aren’t as personality based, but by then the person may not have to interact much with others and since they have already proven themselves that they can do the work, that is fine.</p>
<p>Another angle for consideration…A motto that has helped me in sales…be like a duck…calm on the surface, and paddle like hell…In today’s economic market, our DS’s and DD’s are faced with having to interview and be rejected by more people than they even care to think about. If they are cognizant of that fact, then the rejection can be more of a ho-hum—let’s try another door…
As parents, we can love them, show compassion as they struggle to accept the rejections, and encourage them to keep trying. Sometimes a rejection by a company can be a blessing in disguise, right?</p>
<p>In the past I’ve interviewed and hired interns. My sense is that corporate interviewers have a good understanding of how to interview undergraduates, and that special recipes for interviewing aren’t necessary.</p>
<p>I have two suggestions. The first is for your S to actively follow-up with each of the firms that interviewed him, including those that have “rejected” him. The best way is to do this is with a personal letter. In the letter thank them “again” for the opportunity to have considered him for the intern position, summarize his skills in the context of the position – specifically how they would serve the company in succeeding in the intern assignment, and to state that should the situation at the company were to change “he is very interested” and “would be excited” to work there. For those positions that he has not yet received a reply, he would do well to call and state his interest. Even when the economy is strong, funding for intern positions comes and goes, and sometimes (and it’s happened to me) funding re-appears in late spring.</p>
<p>The second suggestion is in regard to future interviews. The companies that interview him already have a sense of him academically. They know his college. They see his transcript. What they need to know is whether he’ll do the job that they have in mind with passion, energy and persistence. All too often juniors and seniors have high expectations, and in intern positions they are disappointed by what the real world needs. In practice intern positions are rarely technically challenging, but they are difficult in “other” real-world ways. The candidate’s ability to communicate “humility”, “interest” and likely dedication to the work during the interview makes a big impression on those that interview him. Following through on those traits distinguished the potentially successful candidate from the one who’ll be disappointed by the position. All this comes across quickly to experienced interviewers.</p>
<p>Your S would benefit from talking to past interns about what they did, and how the company viewed their work – good or bad. That will go further than any number of mock interviews.</p>