<p>of course you have the right to express your opinion (and i have agreed with you in many of your comments), but when it comes to asians and cheating (and hunt with respect to blacks and intelligence, among other things), others have a right to counter-comment and be annoyed. no biggie!</p>
<p>fwiw–all colleges should get rid of the entrance exams, because they are a joke. but unfortunately i don’t see that happening very soon…</p>
<p>xiggi - I do know what strawman arguement is, and I am also perfectly good at reading between the lines. What hunt posted:
The flip side is that we (yes, I do consider myself to be an American) do not have a culture of cheating, but those Asians do.</p>
<p>I am not certain what is the purpose of this thread. I think it is all lost with all the racial slurs. This whole discussion could have been done without it.</p>
<p>Couldn’t we just go back to saying that Harvard students cheat (for which we have overwhelming evidence) and just call it a day? (Just preparing for life at Goldman-Sachs…)</p>
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<p>This is utterly ridiculous!</p>
<p>They only exists if you decide to create them out of imaginary figments. Please point to any of MY words that are “racial slurs” and use the quotation tool! </p>
<p>Perhaps you should try reading the words as opposed to spend all your time reading between the lines. Interestingly enough, that is exactly what dooms most testers who do poorly on the reading section. It is either poor reading comprehension, or worse, a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize the words of others. I had hoped it was the former! </p>
<p>This thread had a very simple raison d’</p>
<p>If College Board has created a situation whereby certain test takers can prepare from/for recycled tests, then your thread headline should target/expose CB’s unfair practices, not the audience savvy enough to take advantage…like US students woudn’t.</p>
<p>I don’t really want to get involved in this thread, because I don’t feel I know enough about Korean students/Korea, and the thread is heated as it is. I only wanted to point out that some countries DO have more of a culture of cheating (again, no personal experience if Korea is one). The reason I know that is because I lived in one of those countries when I was young (not an Asian country, by the way), and I was actually pleasantly surprised that the culture in America is different. So, I don’t think how much cheating is tolerated is equal across the board, and if that is true there is nothing wrong with pointing it out.</p>
<p>turbo93:</p>
<p>Actually, the Essay is the EASIEST part to game. I can’t get too into it, but it’s laughable. Kids who don’t even speak full-sentence English can get 10-12 on the essay with the proper preparation (3-6 weeks is enough for literally anyone).</p>
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</p>
<p>All joking aside, I think the data is too noisy for such a conclusion, but that it is a good starting point for further analysis. </p>
<p>For example, while I agree that the construction business is corrupt, I dont know if the level of corruption is consistent across all countries. I dont know how an increase in per capita income interacts with the Chinese culture, and I dont know if religious practices affect the level of corruption in the building trade in India and Pakistan. </p>
<p>Even the authors admit there can be outlier, such as Japan.</p>
<p>xiggi - post #3. What did you mean by this:
Should we attribute to your poor writing skill, or do you actually mean cheating is part of Asian culture?</p>
<p>And Hunt’s post:
Tell me it is not racial. Reading between the lines part is that he didn’t actually refer to Asians, but since we are talking about Asians cheating, I am assuming he is referring to Asians.</p>
<p>I have to say, if anyone ever made a racial slur about URM, so many people would be all over it (as they should) and the thread would be shut down, but when it comes to Asians, everyone seem to get a free pass.</p>
<p>First, let me say, as I always do, that I hate this category “asian.” It’s fairly useless. We are categorizing wildly differing cultures by one catch all category. I hate all of these categories… caucaison, black, latino/a, asian. I just don’t even know how you can talk about a monolithic asian. </p>
<p>That said, I think there’s an awful lot of cheating going on on this test all over the world, and the reason for that is : 1. It is apparently not that hard to find a way to cheat on this test (blame to college board) 2. Colleges rely heavily on the results of this test, at least as a necessary competitive bench mark, and the students KNOW they are competing with these cheaters. (blame to college board AND colleges)</p>
<p>I don’t think this is a “cultural” thing. I think it is an issue with the way the test itself is handled.</p>
<p>carry on.</p>
<p>I have a friend who lives in NYC. A few years back, she enrolled her daughter in one of the Hagwon’s in Queens and lets just say, the other students were not so nice to her as she does not look like them nor does she speak their language. The mom joked that she thought that there was some cheating going on but not able to prove it as there is a language barrier/thought she was crazy. Chalked it up as one of those silly “conspiracy theories” and moved on. </p>
<p>After reading this thread(not completely) I wonder if these tests that are on asian soil are making their way to the test prep schools here in the states. Would it be that difficult with the click of a button or dialing a fax # to disseminate the tests? Just a thought.</p>
<p>Marvin, I just checked a list of sample SAT writing essay questions:</p>
<p>[SAT</a> Essay Topics: Practice your essay writing](<a href=“http://www.majortests.com/sat/essay-topics.php]SAT”>SAT Essay Topics: Practice your essay writing | Major Tests)</p>
<p>If any (ethnic) could come up with an essay in the allotted time that does not sound like it came straight out of Central Casting (from a language / syntax point of view) I’d like to see it.</p>
<p>I have dozens of (ethnic) friends and even those who have been here for decades can’t write as well as one would think. I have little faith that a few weeks’ worth of cram prep would allow one to write something that is remotely grammatically and syntactically correct, let alone be on topic and be an interesting read… Heck, I can often tell where someone is from by simply looking at the types of mistakes they do in their writing… (we Elbonians are the easiest to spot - loooong winded sentences that break every rule in the book and over-use of metaphors).</p>
<p>But, I’ve never taken the SAT so my view does not really come from experience. The topics in the site above seemed to be way too ‘expected’ so that could be fixed by throwing a few off-the-wall topics into the mix…</p>
<p>Hello CC.</p>
<p>I am the OP of the original thread on which Xiggi commented. Little did I know that the thread would incite such a fury of criticism on both sides of the spectrum. I did elaborate on reasons and examples in the other thread as to why I thought cheating might be so prevalent in Korea. </p>
<p>Let me add some comments of my own in this thread. </p>
<p>First off, I do not condone cheating in any way, shape, or form, be it on a personal, academic, or societal level. Now, to answer the question of whether I think Koreans are more apt to cheat than those in other countries, I would most definitely answer that question with an emphatic gesture: BY ALL MEANS! </p>
<p>I really do not know what those in other countries are doing to cheat, nor do I care to hear a bunch of statistics attempting to refute my points and explaining why cheating is just as prevalent in other parts of the world. Based on my 14 years of living in Korea, I simply speak for my own people. Now, mind you, I have also lived and been educated in America for nearly 20 years and am now a proud Korean citizen. In other words, I have long since given up my permanent residence in America and plan to live in Korea for the rest of my life. I mention this simply because I do not want anyone to get the wrong idea and think that I am attempting to demean my own people. I mean, how could I, when I live here and love our people and culture with all my heart?</p>
<p>That being said, I would have to admit that our society is a cheating culture. I could easily broach this subject with any native Korean and I would almost always receive a nod of acknowledgment or agreement that such is the Korean way. The only reason for which a Korean might get angered is if I were to bring up this subject in front of a foreigner, especially an American, in which case I would be accused outright of being anti-patriotic and shaming our people. </p>
<p>What does that mean? That means that even most of our own people acknowledge that cheating is very widespread and acceptable in all sectors of life. That doesn’t mean that everyone does it, but in Korea, there is a saying: “The nail that stands out gets hammered down.” In other words, in a collectivist society, you keep your mouth shut, especially when it is something considered as trivial as cheating on a test. </p>
<p>Now, to bring this topic back to the issue of the SAT. There is another saying in Korea among teachers that “you have no place teaching the SAT if you do not have ‘real’ tests.” Why, of course, that doesn’t mean that every SAT instructor distributes illegally-obtained unreleased tests to students, but access to such materials is certainly what the majority of parents and students look for when they sign up for an SAT institute. </p>
<p>And of course, most students will feign innocence by saying that they just solved tests given to them by the teachers and that they had no idea that what they were looking at might have been illegally obtained materials. But we all know that that is a bunch of crap. </p>
<p>I mean, think about this: an SAT instructor who was kidnapped and made almost 2 million dollars distributing illegal tests to students in addition to being accused of lying about his credentials (he said he got his Ph.D. from Columbia) went to jail for 6 months. Upon his release, he immediately started his own academy, and even to this day, when he advertises that his academy will have a parent conference, more than 100 parents show up!</p>
<p>The fact remains that parents will do almost anything to make sure that their kids get ahead of others, and if you think that the prosecutors involved in this recent SAT scandal will give a damn, you are solely mistaken. The cops and prosecutors, in fact, often ask teachers to tutor their students for a discounted price in return for showing leniency or turning the other cheek when these kinds of inspections or investigations turn up.</p>
<p>And why doesn’t College Board do anything to stop the reuse of old domestic tests in Korea? Well, read one of those articles Xiggi posted, and you will see that foreign students contribute $2.1 billion dollars to the American economy! I mean, why would College Board, or any American university, want to do anything to impede the flow of Asian students who inject tons of money into the U.S. economy, especially when the economy has been spiralling downward for quite some time now?</p>
<p>Now, mind you, I am merely stating what I believe is a common reality, which may undoubtedly be biased and based on my own subjective opinions. So feel to comment and bash on me, although I do not think anything will really change.</p>
<p>And even if College Board were to make an altogether new test or stop the reuse of domestic tests internationally, trust me, we Koreans will definitely find another way to cheat the system, especially when it’s a way to cheat or humble the big bad imperialistic America(LOL JK).</p>
<p>According to Christian Science Monitor, Top 5 countries sending students to US are China, India, South Korea, Taiwan and Canada. In 2009-2010, China had about 40000 UG students in the US, India = 11000, SK=35000, Taiwan = 6000. As we can see, relative to their total population, the percentage is very small. Therefore number of students taking SATs is also very small relative to the total population. </p>
<p>I know in Taiwan there is an annual college entrance exam. Anyone who wants to go to college in Taiwan must take that exam. The exam facility is guarded as fort knox, no one could get in or out very easily and it is proctored to minimize cheating.</p>
<p>My question comes back to why there is such an obsession with SAT cheating in Asia. Are we interested in anthropology of Asians, or are we interested in CB’s method of testing and US college admission process? If it is former then the sample is too small. If it is latter then why don’t we just focus on what we are doing.</p>
<p>@turbo93</p>
<p>“I have little faith that a few weeks’ worth of cram prep would allow one to write something that is remotely grammatically and syntactically correct, let alone be on topic and be an interesting read…”</p>
<p>I believe that you are sorely mistaken. I, in fact, started another thread on the SAT forum to prove that many students with woeful grammar and syntactic structure resembling that of an elementary student could indeed increase their essay scores substantially simply by utilizing preslotted introductory/concluding templates, and prememorized examples (I need only use 2 examples that can be used for 80% of the prompts). </p>
<p>I even posted sample essays of students’ real essays with real scores to prove this point, upon which the post was immediately deleted and I was given an infraction and warned never to post other students’ essays again.</p>
<p>I have absolutely no idea who cheats or doesn’t. If I were to hazard a guess I’d bet dishonesty is fairly well represented in all population samples. THat said, why would anybody expend all this effort to cheat on the SAT? Frankly, the test isn’t that hard. Is it to ensure an 800 on all sections? As has been debated on here endlessly, a 2400 verses a 2350, while a boost of some sort, is certainly no guarantee of anything.</p>
<p>@bovertine</p>
<p>At least in my country, Korea, there are two types of cheating students.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Korean students who have little experience abroad, difficulty with English, and cannot, for the life of their mothers, no matter how much they study, raise their scores beyond 500-600 on either the CR or Writing. Obviously, these kids have parents who are rich, for they wouldn’t be studying the SAT and planning to go abroad if they didn’t have the money to do so. A lot of these kids’ parents also understand that if they were to force their kids to attend domestic Korean schools, the kids would be torn apart and wouldn’t last a month. </p></li>
<li><p>Kids from international schools or foreign language schools who can speak English fluently and could, on their own, easily attain scores of 2100-2200. By American standards, that is a high score, but in Korea, anything less than a 2300 is not worth mentioning to someone else. This is due to the fact that Koreans place an enormous amount of weight on the brand-name value of a college, and if they’re going to spent a crap of money to send their kids abroad, they want their kids only to attend prestigious schools that they can brag about when they return to Korea. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>And when you say that the test isn’t that hard, mind you, the kinds of kids we see on CC constitute only 1% of the entire population of students who take the SAT. For the majority of students who take the SAT, both American and Korean, I would say that the SAT is, indeed, extremely hard.</p>
<p>^^^
You’re right, I thought we were speaking about the type of students we generally read about here.</p>
<p>Having tutored the SAT for several years, I’m well aware there are students who find all sections very difficult. I just didn’t think students like this considered attending elite universities.</p>
<p>American culture most definitely values honesty and abhors cheating. I think these values may have been watered down over the years compared to when I was growing up for reasons that are too politically charged to go into here, but we still punish cheaters as a general rule. All of my children’s schools had/have strict policies on cheating, including for sharing homework assignments. The Harvard cheaters were punished, even while the facts about the cheating were still being debated.</p>
<p>Other than what I’ve read here, I have no idea whether students from Korea or Asia have cheated to get into US colleges, but I feel very protective of our colleges as one of our most valuable resources, so I think all allegations should be taken seriously. Ten percent or more of our top colleges are populated by internationals, most of whom are probably from Asia. If any of them were admitted by cheating, especially in the public universities, I would be mad. Actually, as a CA resident, I would only be mad if they are taking spots at the UCs. I would be really mad in that case. Other states and private colleges can decide on their own how they feel about it.</p>
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</p>
<p>Looks like both are outliers from very wealthy families, for whom going to anything other than the tippy top domestic or foreign university is a let-down, and who did not do well enough on the entrance exams for domestic universities to get into a desired one.</p>
<p>That does not seem especially representative of typical people there or in any other country, who may view going to a good (but not tippy top) university to be an “upgrade”.</p>
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</p>
<p>Well… people say so, but what they actually do may not be what they say. Consider the radiology exams, cheated on by people who have supposedly gotten through various elite gateways (medical school admissions, medical school, residency) that one would expect them to be smart enough to not need to cheat at all.</p>
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<p>Way back when, I did encounter an international undergraduate student who said that the SAT was a joke compared to university entrance exams for universities in other countries. Meaning that someone who needed to cheat on the SAT to get a decent score would probably have a hard time handling the school work at university, or at his high school.</p>