<p>“If those things seem overwhelming, it may be a sign that a career in law (at least in Biglaw) may not a good choice.”</p>
<p>"I’m going to rant for a second. Yes, she’s describing something draconian, but what the bloody h-ll did you think 25-year-olds are getting paid $160,000 a year for? To be happy working forty, maaaybe fifty, hours a week? "</p>
<p>My point was that it is not healthy to require people to do that.</p>
<p>In fact, it’s basically a form of psychological abuse and it’s stupid to require people to do things like this.</p>
<p>The point is that workplaces like this <em>should not exist in the first place</em>.</p>
<p>This is the actual reality of the situation.</p>
<p>And it’s not just true in “BigLaw”, it’s also true in other professions, particularly medicine, where it is <em>more</em> abusive <em>and puts people’s health at risk</em>.</p>
<p>Failure to understand this is a failure to understand the human condition.</p>
<p>“Anyway, given how law school applications are down now about 50% and the best and brightest are going elsewhere, perhaps big law and law schools have finally killed the goose that laid the golden egg”</p>
<p>This problem really has little to do with BigLaw and more to do with the fact that law schools are severely overpriced and there are too many of them. It’s a governmet-education created problem more than a BigLaw problem.</p>
<p>Students don’t like taking out $200,000 in loans for a chance at a $50,000 a year job.</p>
<p>I’m only talking about work environment.</p>
<p>I personally encountered my first lawyer suicide about three years into practice (associate) and the first complete nervous breakdown (equity partner) a year later.</p>
<p>Lately, I’ve seen more older doctors than lawyers killing themselves or having nervous breakdowns (three recently). And it’s been the older doctors, surprisingly. Although blowing out your brains only to have your 14 year old daughter find your body seems a little bit more selfish than usual.</p>
<p>So, I’m looking at this problem from personally watching the actual problem unfold in real time in people I’ve actually met.</p>
<p>georgek - sally has given good advice thus far in this thread and I think your comments are off-topic. </p>
<p>There are other threads discussing biglaw’s lifestyle (pros and cons), but this one was meant to ask what traits successful and long-lasting biglaw attorneys have, so that we may learn from them.</p>
<p>sallyawp - You mentioned that many times biglaw associates are sort of thrown into a sink or swim situation where mentoring is scarce. </p>
<p>How much of the work in law school did you (or others here) find to be directly helpful to your biglaw work? How much (perhaps a rough %) of the biglaw work was of a learn-on-the-job nature instead? Also, does biglaw provide new associates with an orientation at the beginning to cover some basics? </p>
<p>I sometimes read the forums at Top Law Schools (which has a more immature and younger crowd, but which sometimes has good advice …it feels like trying to sort the wheat from the chaff at times ) and there are frequent stories of biglaw associates saying they were not taught anything and it was mostly a sink or swim situation at their firm.</p>
<p>Sally’s advice is dead on for BigLaw.
I’d add one more although this may have more to do with hiring…</p>
<p>"10. Be traditionally attractive/look traditionally successful. Law firms and clients want you to be clean cut, attractive and healthy-looking. “Alternative” doesn’t work. “Messy” doesn’t work. Heavy doesn’t work. I have a friend who got counseled that she had to start wearing more makeup (too bare faced) and the firm sent her to the mall for a lesson. Others who were told to buy better cars.</p>
<p>Law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer. </p>
<p>Working teaches you how to practice. And usually you aren’t any good or of much value for about 3 years. There is no orientation in the world that can fix that.</p>
<p>Growing up, my mom always harped on me about things like appearance (even though I was already quite fastidious on my own, lol), manners, and respect for others. </p>
<p>I think that’s always good traditional advice and it sort of comes naturally to me in many ways. But you also mentioned something that was surprising to me. Is there possibly a “keeping up with the Jones’” culture/expectation in biglaw that extends into appearances of luxury? Being asked to buy a “better” car was a bit surprising. I can definitely understand wanting to be clean cut, well groomed, etc., in order to give a good impression to clients. But things like my car or home, etc. would seem unrelated to direct work conditions.</p>
<p>Did anyone else find these suggestions made to them in biglaw? Very curious now about this.</p>
<p>Oh, interesting. That would definitely be a no go for my current car. It’s in great shape, but I pack it with sooooo many books, binders, supplies, and all sorts of stuff. </p>
<p>Why/where do you drive them out of curiosity? :)</p>
<p>It happened a half dozen times a year. Often at my firm, before court or depos, the client would come to the firm first and we would drive together using the drive time as prep. Especially where there is bad parking/client hadn’t been there before. Occasionally someone…a client or witness or out of town counsel would fly in and going to get them was “nice” although we sent cars too. Or you took someone to lunch or dinner due to being in court/prep.</p>
<p>Other seemingly personal decisions can affect the larger firm:</p>
<p>Lawyers at a biglaw firm where I was an associate sometimes tried to save expense by parking in a surface lot a few blocks away or riding a bus. They would sometimes arrive a bit wet on rainy days. They were urged to drive and spend money on a garage, at least on rainy days.</p>
<p>Lawyers who tried to eat at their desks and work through lunch were urged to bring food that doesn’t have a strong smell (no fish, cold foods only) because the scent carries to neighboring offices.</p>
<p>Traveling on business the rule was only carry-on luggage; no checked bags (to avoid delays, expedite mid-trip schedule changes, etc.)</p>
<p>Annual goals for partnership track mid-level associates included taking on a position of responsibility in a non-profit or community organization outside the firm (to facility rainmaking).</p>
<p>Yes, in addition to your hours you need to attend certain functions/charity events (around here we called it the lawyer prom(s)) and you need to start sitting on boards etc.</p>
<p>Recent biglaw associate in NYC – haven’t read the whole thread, but in terms of why people leave in 3-4 years – assuming that it’s not a layoff or push-out, people leave because the hours get old. Often the “excitement” of a first professional job and also the reality of loans/finances carries a person through the first 2 years. By year 3, for those who don’t really love it, the monotony sets in and they become irritated at one more weekend assignment etc. Yr 4 tends to get better as you’re then a mid level and are probably “running” more cases but that comes with its own issues of emails never stopping, having to manage junior associates, often not having enough juniors in this economy so you’re staying even later to do their work and yours etc. If you didn’t love it before, you’re not going to love it in yr 4, so that’s when people figure out other things to do. I’ve always said this is a really hard job to have if you love it, I can’t imagine how people do it who don’t love it – it’s not something you can do for the money for long because it consumes your life.</p>
<p>For those who last 7-8 yrs, whether they make partner or not – the personalities are very similar – very determined, work obsessed (you decide whether that’s good or not), excellent stamina, great multi-taskers, and genuinely not bothered if they get stuck in the office an extra 3 hrs. That’s a rare person.</p>
<p>Is 160K all in? If so, that’s not much after 3 more years of law school tuition. A lot of tech and finance companies pay their analysts/associates that much after 3 years.</p>
<p>sallyawp and others,
My DH spent a number of years working in two of the very well-known BigLaw firms in NYC. The most important thing he thinks you wrote in post #21 was “make yourself invaluable.” He doesn’t think you need a book of business in those first 7-8 years as he says the really big firms have plenty of business, but making yourself indispensable is what he believes is the key in the long run.</p>
<p>Momof3sons, that was definitely the case previously, but everything changed after the crash, particularly post-Dewey. There have even quietly been a lot of partner layoffs. Nowadays, everything is about the money.</p>
<p>Oh, absolutely, zoosermom! He is constantly telling me what he reads in the Law Journal about partners being let go at the major firms and he sees it happening at his firm if partners aren’t continuing to bring in business. It’s incredibly stressful now as clients try to bargain down rates on deals.</p>
) and there are frequent stories of biglaw associates saying they were not taught anything and it was mostly a sink or swim situation at their firm.</p>