Swarthmore, Brown, Pomona, or Amherst?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
1

<p>I want:
Liberal arts, "learning for the sake of learning" kind of feel - more students going for PhDs than MDs.
Strong program in (molecular) biology.
Also interested in astronomy, physics, linguistics, English, astrobiology.
College town or city, not isolation.
Amazing, devoted professors.
Lots of undergrad research.
Nice dorms/good food = definite plus.</p>

<p>My take on each school....</p>

<p>Swarthmore
More of an intellectual atmosphere (beneficial or smothering?). Close to Philly but I get the feeling that students don't get up there much. Great student-professor relations (see: the bathtub debate!). Strong in all sciences. But are students too stressed? Apparently social activities don't start until the library closes (at 10!) on Friday. But reputation of less drinking is a plus.</p>

<p>Basically: I can't decide if the super intellectual atmosphere is amazing or stifling.</p>

<p>Brown
More of a mix of smaller, discussion-based classes and larger lectures (good or bad?). No core (good/bad?). Larger student body + grad school = harder to connect with professors or better research opps? Nice town, close to Boston/NY. Does having more students make socializing easier (more diversity, chance of finding "your people") or harder (not as welcoming, harder to actually meet "your people")? Icky dorms, from what I can tell. A few dining options, some good food off-campus too. Happy students. Would Brown have more oddball classes on super specific topics than the others? (I love the idea of this)</p>

<p>Basically: I'm divided over whether I want a small U like Brown or an LAC.</p>

<p>Pomona
Small, closeknit college, yet social/academic options broadened by consortium. Close(ish) to LA but immediate surroundings = suburbia (blah). Very far from home (:(). Has professor/class in a specific area of bio research in which I'm very interested! I love the beach / warm weather (but would I miss seasons?). I also love the little things like Death by Chocolate, Ski-Beach day, daily snack, etc. Lots of dining options since you can eat on any campus. Seems like they make making friends super easy with sponsor groups, freshman adventure trips, etc. Nice dorms, happy students.</p>

<p>Basically: the only thing I worry about is being too far from home and too suburbia-fied.</p>

<p>Amherst
Small LAC but not claustrophobic thanks to college town, proximity of UMass & other schools (also broadens academic options somewhat). Far but not too far from home. Intro bio class I sat in on was great but I get the feeling Amherst is more social science-y than hard science-y. Only 1 dining hall but amazing freshman dorms. No core (good/bad?).</p>

<p>Basically: I love the way the school is integrated with the town, but worry about the lack of science options.</p>

<p>The ED deadline is coming up and I just don't know what to do!!!! Suggestions? How much would waiting for RD lower my chances at each school?</p>

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<p>It seems like Swarthmore fits most of your criteria. Let's take a look. Swarthmore's definitely liberal arts, and people here do care about learning because they enjoy it--people here take their work seriously, which is a pretty big change from my high school. One of the nice things here is that grades are de-emphasized; actually I don't know any of my grades right now. I've heard that Swarthmore's good for biology, but I'm not interested in majoring in it and I don't know what's particularly good about Swarthmore's biology department. I am in Intro to Bio, however, and I was told by my sister who went to the Univ. of Washington that the lab reports we do here are of higher caliber than the ones she did there--the bio department here, I think, emphasizes strong writing and critical thinking skills. For example, we write rough drafts and meet up with Writing Associates to polish our work, and we try to make our writing high quality.
I also don't know about those particular fields that you mentioned, but for astrobiology, a good person for you to talk to is Amy Cheng Vollmer--maybe you can find her e-mail on the Swarthmore biology homepage.
About Swarthmore's location, I think it's actually quite isolated. There is the Ville, but that's really nothing and the mall is nothing to be proud of. There are houses around, though, so it's possible to take walks around the neighborhood if you want to. You can go to Philly; most people I think go every few weeks or so. Social life definitely revolves around campus, though. It's not a college town.
Yes, professors are devoted to teaching undergrads, and that's pretty amazing on its own. You probably won't get very many extremely formal teachers--think 3-piece black suit--but they're still great. Lots of research in bio, I think. Not overly intellectual.</p>

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<p>I think Brown is a fine school, but unless I loved something about it, I would rule it out in that group simply because it lacks the financial resources of the other three schools -- all of which have per student endowments roughly three times that of Brown and all of is devoted to undergrad students.</p>

<p>The other three -- Amherst, Swarthmore, and Pomona -- are equal by any objective measure. I think they are the three best LACs in the country. So it really boils down to your priorities.</p>

<p>Pomona is in California. Do you want to travel to LA for college? Swarthmore is both the most academic and the most diverse of the three. Amherst has its charms.</p>

<p>A few small issues:</p>

<p>a) You are right to identify Swarthmore as the strongest of the three in the sciences. Swarthmore is third in the country in overall PhD production, fourth in science/engineering PhD production.</p>

<p>b) You better check on linguistics departments. Swarthmore's is very well respected. Not all colleges have them.</p>

<p>c) Philadelphia being 25 minutes from campus is a huge plus. Some students go once a week. Some once a month. Some once a semester. The key is that you can go however many times you need to go. Every college on your list will feel too small at some point. Nothing like a city to get a breath of real-world air. It's really important, IMO.</p>

<p>d) A point related to the location. Nobody (only 10% of the campus) has cars at Swarthmore. Swarthmore students have it made for both weekend travel -- from Wash to NYC -- and travel home for vacations. Bus, train, easy access to an airport with Southwest and Jet Blue cheapo fares. It's great. My daughter did visits somewhere every semester: friends in New York City, friends at Vassar, friends at Ga Tech, spring break at roomate's brother's house and Cuban in-laws in Miami, party weekend with Swat grads in Washington, etc. She did another day trip -- charter bus -- to Washinton for a Darfur rally on Capitol Hill with a couple of Swatties speaking and then split up with everyone going to lobby their homestate Senators. Her going to lobby at John Kerry's office was probably as educational as anything she did at Swarthmore. Did it all with easy, cheap transportation. No sweat. People don't think about that, but unless they are loaded, they should. There are real perks to the location.</p>

<p>e) dchow might not be proud of the mall, but having a Target less than a mile from campus is a real plus. A college student can pretty much survive indefinitely on stuff from a big Target with a grocery section. BTW, the Target store is moving even closer to campus. It's taken over the lease on one of the two major department store locations in the mall. Easy walking distance. I would also not shortchange the restaurant scene in Media -- a couple of stops on the rail line out past Swarthmore. It's become a hotspot for trendy, mostly ethnic, restaurants. Everything from Iron Horse brew pub to Thai/French, to really good Indian, to a high dollar Asian fusion restaurant opened up by Iron Chef Morimoto's sous chef from downtown. These restaurants now do a lot of catering for Swarthmore department events (the golden rule: free food equals big student turnout!) Media has actually become a popular dinner out location for Swatties and their parents. Speaking of food...one special dinner at Morimotos in downtown Phila will make you want to go to either Swarthmore or directly to heaven. </p>

<p>f) The whole "do Swatties work too hard" thing has been beat to death. Check it ouf for yourself. Do an overnight. Talk to students. None of the Swattie parents here had kids who expressed those sentiments. I think most would say that Swarthmore's undergrad education is the best in the country, that they worked hard, but didn't kill themselves. It think the all are justifiable proud of their four years. If you think it's going to be too much after you've checked it out, then Swarthmore's probably not the right school. Wouldn't make sense to go there if you're already psyched out.</p>

<p>Good luck with your choice. You really can't go wrong with any of those schools.</p>

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<p>Wow I love that description of Swarthmore :D</p>

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<p>I really don't know much about Brown or Amherst but I looked very heavily at both Swarthmore and Pomona. I flatter myself I know a good deal about either, having spent ten years in Claremont and the past semester in PA.</p>

<p>What ultimately made the choice for me (apart from needing desperately to get away from home) was Swarthmore's intellectual atmosphere. It has a reputation for being both incredibly rigorous and highly nerdy; some of this is deserved. Every student I have met commands some brilliance or other. It's all the more intimidating, however, because they're also ultimately, by and large, normal kids who are (contrary to some rumors I've heard) hardly socially dysfunctional. Furthermore, in my experience students find plenty of time to have fun on the weekend. If drinking is your scene, it's pretty much available all the time--and widely consumed Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights (and free the latter two). But Swarthmore also takes care of the substance-free crowd, providing "Parrish Parlor Parties" on Thursdays and Saturdays with various fun and drug-free activities. I think this is the first place you really experience Swarthmore's incredible endowment--they pretty much find the resources to support everyone. Most people I know have gone into Philly for food or, especially, for concerts. It's pretty much the easiest trip in the world and if you hop on the train with friends you're in University City or at 30th St. before you even notice. For what it's worth, I have found getting into Philly much easier than I found getting into LA...it's cheaper and the public transportation system is much more versatile. My main complaint? Trains stop running at 12! But on the weekend there are college shuttles to rectify this issue.</p>

<p>Are the students too stressed? Mind you, I'm a first-year, so my opinion may not count for much, but I would say not. I have friends who never study and friends who always do. I think we all have a lot of work, but the loose-yet-curiosity-encouraging requirements generally mean that everyone is studying something he or she wants to be. Sure, I may have several hundred pages of reading for my American Elections course due next week, and I may need to finish a huge bio lab report, but I'm so fascinated by both classes that it's really quite a pleasure.</p>

<p>For the record, in half a semester at Swarthmore, I have dined with both the eminent Chechnya expert and Michael Dukakis, had the former gentleman and the New York Times's Western Africa correspondent sit in on my (12 student) sociology-anthropology seminar, been given more free food than I know what to do with, and seen one of my favorite bands perform in LPAC. This place is rife with opportunities. </p>

<p>As for Pomona, it's a really great place. In comparison with Swarthmore, I'd say that the students are more laid back, more suntanned, more athletic, and quite smart but perhaps less in-your-face about it than Swatties. It's cliche, but they are more Socal; we aspire to some blend of NYC and birkenstocked northern New England. I don't mean to belittle their student body, which contains some of the brightest minds I've met, but while they may span a greater variety of intellects, I've found a certain brilliance lacking on occasion back home--but universally present in Swatties. They have some great traditions and events, but so does Swarthmore. The town of Claremont has a bit more going on than the Ville, but ID is right--the town of Media is very close and offers better and cheaper cuisine than you'll find east of Pasadena or LA (and that's if you know where to look). I've actually found that Swarthmore's autonomous campus is a blessing--there's an incredible feeling of safety and not the need to look out for cars or wandering Claremont policemen (they do this) you'll find at Pomona.</p>

<p>The sponsor groups ARE really great. If you're introverted or worried about making friends, that may be a compelling argument. I haven't had any trouble meeting incredible people at Swat in their absence, however, and I might wager that absent such handholding even vague introverts like myself become braver about befriending.</p>

<p>& Swarthmore bio is amazing. I'm just sayin'.</p>

<p>Good luck deciding! If you're as undecided as you sound, I'd avoid ED altogether and apply to all these places--come April chance will have helped you decide, and financial aid packages might go one step further.</p>

6

<p>Shibbolethette,</p>

<p>I have a daughter who is a freshman at Swarthmore and a son who graduated from Brown two years ago. My son loved Brown and had a very positive experience there. I think that Brown is an incredible school and you cannot go wrong there. Having said that, I must say that Swarthmore is incredible too, but more so. </p>

<p>I have been involved in academia for over 22 years, both as an administrator and a professor and the school does not cease to amaze me in the level of care and dedication to its students. The school just simply goes the extra mile in so many areas that it makes for a superb environment.</p>

<p>There is no doubt that the curriculum is important when choosing a college. However, the student body is just as important, if not more so, and here is one area where Swarthmore excels. My daughter just spent a week at home for Fall break and she confirmed everything that I had learned about the school from colleagues, books and posters here. </p>

<p>When my daughter left for Swarthmore last August, she was worried about the reputation the school has for intense academics and the “stress” factor so widely reported. My daughter works hard, but also likes to have “silly” fun. She feared that everyone might be too serious. Her father and I kept reassuring her that she would find like minded students, but she was not totally convinced. She did choose to attend Swarthmore because she knew that academically it was a perfect fit and ultimately figured that if she was not socially happy, she could always transfer. After 2 months there, she is thrilled with her decision because she simply loves the friends that she has made and is having a great time. Her description of the students mirrors much of what has been stated here: everyone is SMART and NICE and a good number of them have a great sense of humor and take time to be silly but are also socially conscious.</p>

<p>Stress Factor - Thus far, she has not felt stressed. She has some friends who are stressed, but she has been quick to explain that although those friends are obsessive compulsive and would feel stressed anywhere, they still take time to relax and have fun. In comparing Swarthmore with Brown, it is interesting to note that it seems that there are many more parties going on every week at Swarthmore than there ever were at Brown when my son was there. (One of her close friends who started at Brown this year has not yet gone to any parties.) This is probably a function of the fact that Swarthmore makes money available to fund parties. My daughter feels that the “serious” student image is perpetuated by the school’s policy not to have parties when prospects are visiting. So she made it a point to share with students who visited during Discovery Weekend how wrong her perception had been prior to attending. </p>

<p>Brown wins hands down in terms of “college town” or city feeling. Thayer Street, which borders the school, is filled with stores and restaurants that cater to Brown and RISD students. Providence’s downtown is just down the hill and over the river. Swarthmore does not have anything within walking distance that matches the feel of Thayer Street but going into Philly is easy. My daughter’s friends have been going into Philly almost every week. So it is possible to get away. She has not been able to join them because of extracurricular commitments that take much of her “non-scheduled” time. However, she says that there is so much going on the campus itself that the school’s isolation has not bothered her. In fact, she loves the pastoral, peacefulness of the campus, even though she is a city girl and loves city life.</p>

<p>One last point that is small, but indicative of how sensitive the school is to students’ needs. Whenever my son went back and forth on breaks, he either had to take a taxi from the airport to Brown ($$$) or an airport shuttle that stopped all around the city and dropped him off far from his dorm ($). Swarthmore has its own vans that go back and forth between the airport and the school every hour during the breaks. The shuttles are not only convenient but free of charge. Again, nothing major but nice touch, just like free printing and various other services. Brown did not make much available to students. Interesteddad is correct about the endowment issue.</p>

<p>Academically either school is outstanding. You need to visit and then weigh the feel vis a vis everything else that you have learned about each school.</p>

<p>I have not commented on the other two schools because I have no "first hand" knowledge. My daughter applied to Pomona but not to Amherst. She picked Swarthmore over Pomona because it seemed like a better fit academically and was easier to get back and forth (Florida). However, in terms of academics all four are tops!</p>

7

<p>Wow! Thank you so much for your lengthy answers...everything sounds great.</p>

<p>dchow: Thanks for the suggestion of Professor Vollmer - I'd actually listened to one of her talks online without realizing she was a Swat professor. (silly, as I now recall it was on the Swarthmore website!)</p>

<p>The non - college town thing does give me pause, though it sounds like students find plenty to do on-campus & with occasional trips to Philly. Maybe it's just because Amherst & Brown are some of the only schools I've seen at night, but the town seemed to give the whole campus so much energy!</p>

<p>A few more trivial questions...</p>

<p>What are the pros/cons of Swarthmore's housing of freshmen with upper-classmen?
What are the dorms like?
How is the food? Do you get sick of having only 1 dining hall?</p>

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<p>dorm and food represent the worst of Swarthmore.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
What are the pros/cons of Swarthmore's housing of freshmen with upper-classmen?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>IMO, this is the single most important policy at Swarthmore (just barely beating out pass-fail first semester. </p>

<p>It is so valuable for new college students, trying desperately to figure it all out, to live side by side with veteran college students. They get so much information on classes, on how to prepare, on professors, on majors, on seeing senior honors preparations first hand, on job hunting, on grad school apps, on socializing, and on just generally how to conduct yourself as a college student. It's a glimpse and some perspective into the future, all passed along goofing around in the hall, shaving in the bathroom, or whatever. In turn, it's rewarding for older Swarthmore students to take "their freshmen" under their wing. There's a passing along of community and culture that is impossible when freshmen are isolated from the rest of campus.</p>

<p>I also think not having freshmen ghetto dorms is a huge reason that Swarthmore's drinking scene is not out of control. Upperclass students set a tone of have fun but don't behave like an idiot that is a moderating influence at an important time.</p>

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<p>Why not apply to all four schools and see what choices, if any, remain?</p>

11

<p>^maybe she wants to ED.. which is not a great idea if she's so unsure</p>

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<p>"YOU" is right, I was thinking about EDing..but now I think I'm just gonna go RD (fingers crossed).</p>

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<p>If you have not visited the schools, you should not do ED. You should only do ED if you are absolutely sure and convinced that the school is right for you. Making an ED commitment without visiting is playing Russian roulette. There were schools that both of my children rejected after visiting, even though they had been high on their lists prior to their visits.</p>

<p>Brown does not care whether you visit or not, they do not keep track. Both Swarthmore and Pomona DO CARE AND KEEP TRACK of whether you have visited or not. I believe that visiting either one of those plays a greater factor in the admission process than applying early. I have no idea about Amherst because my kids did not apply. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

14

<p>treesnogger, how were you so fortunate as to have dinner with Michael Dukakis!? I certainly saw him speak but I didn't know that he was dining with people. What restaurant was it?</p>

<p>A few additional comments I would like to make:
- about academics: People in general do take their work very seriously, because they want to learn and because they understand that this is college and they want to make the most of their time here. It's not like they don't have fun, though.
- This is a rather personal comment, but I really like the fact that I'm going to a small school. Some of my high school friends at Columbia and Georgetown were shocked when I told them that Swarthmore is smaller than our high school. Instead of 5,000 people it was 1500. But I'm glad that I'll be friends with people I'll know very well, and that there is a sense of community here. It's also nice to know that you do get a lot of personal attention from professors here--to me, that's a very important part of college. Also, the fact that there are so many resources to help you is good because it means that I --</p>

<p>Okay, I have to backtrack a little.
First, to all people looking at colleges, think a little about what you want to get out of it. In high school, as now, my primary goal was to be well-educated (of course this went with being wiser, being more useful to society, being Western-educated). It's really hard to be well-educated--knowing and understanding the great books of the Western world, knowing all about history and science and art and music. I'm tempted to say that by these standards, it is impossible to become well-educated in only four school years (ideally, becoming well-educated starts at a young age though). I'm starting to think that intellectualism is really a mindset, not necessarily a set of knowledge. I think you know where I am heading--in learning, contact with the experts is important, for rather obvious reasons. </p>

<p>Can you be educated if you go to McCabe Library and read all the books? I think so--certainly in America those who desired to learn read for themselves--they weren't forced to read Plato or Marx; they chose to. William Dean Howells said in his autobiography that in his neighborhood in Ohio, farmers and tradesmen who had never been to high school or college bought books when they came in with the river steamer. They didn't just buy books--they sought them hungrily; they sought to learn. Close contact with the expert, though, is so much more meaningful--you get much more out of it. Lectures are often dramatic paraphrases of previously written works--they can certainly be great, but being able to talk to students and professors in small classes--I think of my math class, which has 11 students--mean that I have more control in my learning. </p>

<p>It also helps, to those who are searching for an intellectual college, to ask what intellectual even means. It doesn't mean constantly philosophizing about Plato and Kierkegaard and constructing esoteric philosophies for the chosen few, nor does it mean talking about academics all the time. Jacques Barzun calls it "the capitalized and communal form of live intelligence." You can read more about that later. </p>

<p>It is comforting to know that here, at least, there are people who care that students learn. Actually, I think that is the greatest comfort to being here, with the exception of course that you are safe here.</p>

<p>Really, the complaints about dorm and food are rather hollow.</p>

15

<p>About stress--yes, there is stress, but it's not going to dominate your life or anything. I wouldn't let the reputation for "intensity" and "stress" scare you off. I did stay up until 5 in the morning and skipping bio lecture to finish my first giant lab report today, however, mostly trying to figure out how to get the figures on paper into JPEGs. And I certainly was stressed! Very stressed! But I don't have to wake up until 12:30 tomorrow so I'm quite pleased. Now, I'm going to read some Jacques Barzun and go to bed.</p>

16

<p>dramatica: I have visited all of them and was impressed by all of them...hence, the dilemma.</p>

<p>dchow: After reading all that, I have to say I hope Swarthmore is kind to me in April!</p>

17

<p>Shibbolethette, since you liked all of them, I hope you get into all those colleges and have a wonderful time guaranteed. Yes, you can get personal attention at all those schools you mentioned. Main thing I didn't like about Brown was it's open curriculum--I strongly object to that idea and support a classical liberal education--classics, literature, math, science, philosophy, history, art. I wish Swarthmore had required classes in these subjects, like Columbia does. Distribution requirements are okay.</p>

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<p>dchow: I'm taking American Elections in the political science department and the professors arranged it--2 freshmen, 2 sophomores, 2 juniors, 2 seniors, and about half the poly sci faculty were there. We discussed his views of Barack Obama's community organizing and such things, which was incredibly valuable. </p>

<p>For prospectives' information, although my experience was unique, every course of study will open up opportunities like this one!</p>

<p>As regards the dorms, I like the class integration. It should be mentioned, however, that experiences can be wildly different; Danawell, Willets, and ML are quite freshmen-heavy (and it appears to me that their sophomore and junior inhabitants consort more readily with the first-year contingent). However, it seems to me that what students gain in camaraderie they lose in general dorm appeal: the very nicest dorms, my own Wharton and Alice Paul/David Kemp, for example, have fewer freshmen because upperclassmen are more interested in living in them. I promise it's worth it. The seniors on my hall largely keep to themselves, but they were very friendly at the beginning of the semester and are helpful when we need it!</p>

19

<p>Where upperclassmen want to live and the number of frosh aren't related—freshmen rooms are never in the lottery. If the school wanted to put more froshlings in Wharton/DKAP, they could.</p>