<p>murmillo,</p>
<p>Beware of questioning ‘anything Swarthmore’ when it comes to ID. I am a parent who feels that Swarthmore was a mixed experience and, due to this forum’s constant monitoring by ID, have given up on posting my concerns publicly. Like any college, it is probably a wonderful experience for some and mixed for others.</p>
<p>Feel free to argue that Swarthmore’s WA program is not a national model. All the links are in the thread I referenced. I’d love to hear details of another liberal arts college writing program that is comparable to Swarthmore’s.</p>
<p>These aren’t minor issues. They are routinely cited by visiting accreditation review panels. Or, in the large grants Swarthmore has received from HHMI to develop similar student peer mentoring programs in the sciences.</p>
<p>
I don’t think ID claims that Swarthmore is a wonderful experience for everyone who attends… in fact, if I were to dig, I could probably cite you several posts wherein he advises a student NOT to attend/apply to Swarthmore because they are not a good fit (usually for the intensity). Having a top-notch writing program is not particularly relevant to the Swarthmore experience for an individual student; it may or may not play a role. As an unofficial student tour guide told me recently (I paraphrase), “That’s the writing center. Some people love it, but I don’t really get it, personally.” I suspect that the student wouldn’t have cared about ANY writing program, good or bad; it was simply irrelevant to his experience.</p>
<p>
That would be impossible - all students are required to take a certain number of writing courses, and part of the writing course requirement is to have the papers WAed before they are turned in. It could be that this student did not find the process helpful, but it is relevant to all.</p>
<p>^If the process was not helpful to the student, than it is irrelevant to his experience–or worse, a detriment. (I think we define “relevant” differently.) Some people really dislike revising papers and derive no benefit from being forced to do so because they resent it. I have no clue if this particular student fell into such a category, but he didn’t seem to “care” either way about the writing program, though he mentioned that some people really loved it.</p>
<p>In any case, I think it’s relevant to the discussion of high school applicants questioning how they will measure up at Swarthmore. Writing is obviously a big factor in grades in many Swarthmore courses and Swarthmore has a nationally recognized program to help students learn to write better college papers and to improve any paper they like through a round of peer review and revision. The process, considered to be the most effective teaching tool for college writing, is not only available, free, 7 days a week, but is mandatory in at least three W courses that every student must take.</p>
<p>I would think this would be relevant to any student questioning whether they have the chops to write Swarthmore-level college papers. Some students are understandably not concerned about all that. They could write a Swarthmore paper in their sleep. There are probably, however, some prospective Swarthmore students who are not so confident or who understand that even the best writers in the world benefit from a second set of eyes.</p>
<p>When I went to the parents info Q&A session with Swarthmore seniors, one senior said that her biggest piece of advice would be for Swat first-year students to use the Writing Center. She said that she had gotten papers WA’d every year for four years and it was a big help to her.</p>
<p>These strike me as real-world issues in choosing a college, much more relevant than the usual “how is the economics department” or “what percentage get into med school” question. This kind of program, and the very substantial funding commitment, goes right to the heart of student-centric undergrad educational program, IMO.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wesleyan’s approach is pretty comprehensive, covering everything from certificates in journalism, creative writing, and science writing to facilities (The Shapiro Center for Creative Writing) as well as specialized student housing: [Wesleyan</a> University Writing](<a href=“http://www.wesleyan.edu/writing/]Wesleyan”>Welcome, Writing at Wesleyan - Wesleyan University)</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I found the WA program, as it existed a decade ago, completely unhelpful. The program’s been changed since then, as I’m sure ID can document in extensive detail, but that was my experience.</p>
<p>Wesleyan is a good example. It’s well known for writing and likely has a much larger creative writing program than does Swarthmore.</p>
<p>They have a Writing Across the Curriculum program just like Swarthmore’s, so it makes a good point of comparison:</p>
<p>a) Swarthmore has a faculty member (UPenn PhD) assigned exclusively to the writing program, plus a second adjuct professor. Wesleyan has an adjunct prof. (Masters/Brandeis) in charge of its Writing Program. One of the issues in WAC programs is that the Writing Director serves as a resource/peer for the faculty. That’s why it’s important to invest in a director with some stature. The one weakness in Swarthmore’s program is that the Director is not a tenured faculty position. It ideally should be.</p>
<p>b) Swarthmore’s training of peer tutors is a full semester seminar course that studies the latest pedagogy in writing instruction. This course is taught, for credit, every fall to the new sophmore WA’s by Jill Gladstein. It is considered to be the equivalent of a graduate Education course. Wesleyan does a much better job than most schools, with a training program that meets once a week for an hour at lunch. This is, for example, a much stronger training program than Williams offers, but it’s not the same as a full seminar.</p>
<p>c) The mark of a top WAC program is writing tutors assigned to courses. This is where the concept orginated. It shows not only strong interest by student WAs, but faculty buy-in, which is important to the concept. Wesleyan has writing tutors assigned to seven courses this semester ([Wesleyan</a> University Writing](<a href=“http://www.wesleyan.edu/writing/workshop/tutors.html]Wesleyan”>http://www.wesleyan.edu/writing/workshop/tutors.html)). Swarthmore has forty-eight WAs assigned to 20 courses, 25 if you count each of the six lab sections of Bio 2 as a separate course ([Swarthmore</a> College :: Writing Program :: Course WA Assignments](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/x10210.xml]Swarthmore”>Course WA Assignments :: Writing Associates Program :: Swarthmore College)).</p>
<p>Correction:</p>
<p>I misspoke above.</p>
<p>Jill Gladstein, director of Swarthmore’s Writing Center, was among the professors just promoted from Assistant Professsor to Associate Professor. It appears that she was granted tenure and the Swarthmore program is headed by a tenure-track faculty position, which is considered the ideal for a college writing center.
`</p>
<p>JER:</p>
<p>The biggest change in the program since your days is that the original founder, English Professor Emeritus Thomas Blackmon handed over the reins to Jill Gladstein, who was hired specifically to run the program. She talks about some of the changes in her research paper I linked previously. I don’t if the changes are signficant or if you would find today’s program equally “useless”. I suspect that students strugling with college writing probably find that it has some value.</p>
<p>As I pointed out in the previous thread on this topic, the issue isn’t whether every individual student finds the program worthwhile. After all, by that criteria, two-thirds of Swarthmore students would say that the Honors Program is “useless”. Even more would say that War News Radio is “useless”. In fact, these programs are distinctive strengths of Swarthmore College. Rightly or wrongly, the academic world sees value in these writing across the curriculum programs, actually increasing value as students come to elite colleges from more varied backgrounds. These programs are mentioned in every accreditation review report and Swarthmore’s program is viewed as a national leader.</p>
<p>I was really interested to see that there is now some discussion at Swarthmore to expanding the WA model to include a similar “across the curriculum” approach to oral presentations in the classroom. That is a innovative idea in undergrad education. These are the sorts of pedagogy discussions that a good Writing Center director has with the faculty</p>
<p>DD has been a WA since sophomore year. The highs for her have been those 3 or 4 (out of 12 or so of her Wa-ees) each semester who make dramatic improvement in their writing skills and are thus so appreciative of the program. She puts a lot of effort into it. And that is her payoff. It doesn’t work for everyone. But it sure works for many.</p>
<p>My kid says that he loves the academics at Swat because he loves the way that he is being trained to think, no matter what the course is. He was just relaying “I have so much work right now, it’s crazy!” but he was really excited when he said it. He also says that there are lots of extremely bright kids, and you have to be on your game all the time, but sometimes a student who is brilliant in one class is weak in another, so people have different places where they shine. And that he loves the opportunity to learn–he feels as if he spent his high school years trying to get the grades to get into Swarthmore, and now that he’s there, he can just glory in the opportunities.</p>
<p>To those of faced with choices:</p>
<p>Two years ago my D was struggling with deciding where to go. She had an early write letter from Swarthmore, which made her feel great, but she was uncertain about whether she would be happy in light of some of the things that she had heard and vibes that she had picked up while visiting Swat on three different occasions. </p>
<p>Her biggest concerns were the schools pressure cooker reputation and whether there would be room to have fun and act silly. She had no doubt about the reputation for outstanding academics and opportunities for involvement in social causes, attributes that mattered to her. She was uncertain, however, about whether the students would be so committed to their causes and academics, that they would never take time to stop and do silly, uninhibited fun things (sort of like the Monty Python type of humor, for lack of a better description. My description, not hers). I should add, that although genuinely committed to social causes, she has always been frustrated by extreme political correctness and she was concerned that her brand of humor, which is sometimes incorrect, might not be welcomed. </p>
<p>My D ultimately decided on Swarthmore, knowing that she could always transfer, and left for school not totally convinced that she had made the right choice. </p>
<p>Two years later, I am glad to share that she has had no regrets and cannot think of a better school for her. She has a wonderful group of friends with whom she can be socially conscious, at times politically incorrect, academically engaged and take the time to act silly as well. However, from the bits and pieces I have picked up, coupled with some very earnest conversations that we have had, I would have to agree with the topic of this thread, that Swarthmore is not for everyone… </p>
<p>Schools, just like people, have personalities. Swarthmore is definitely not a healthy choice for a student whose self worth and over arching goal in college is dependent on getting straight As; just like a school overrun by fraternities and sororities and football games would not be a good fit for someone like my D, who is fiercely independent, outspoken and more inclined towards the arts than team sports. </p>
<p>Although my D is very happy at Swat, I would be remiss if I did not disclose that she does have her bouts of frustration with all the work that is assigned. I have heard her whine about lack of sleep and overwhelming amount of reading. Yet when I have suggested that she needs to cut back on the things that she takes on, or the late night talks with friends, that rob her of her sleep, she is quick to say that those are some of the things that she loves most about being there and will not have it any other way. </p>
<p>Like many other Swatties, she is overly extended, but she thrives on this, just as she did in high school. However, despite the hard work and sleep deprivation, I believe that she is happy because she knows how to decompress (Yoga is an important part of her life), makes time to get away from campus on a regular basis, and most importantly, does NOT obsess over grades. </p>
<p>From what I have been able to discern, many students who are unhappy or who find themselves in an unhealthy depressive state, seem to be the type of student who feels overwhelmed because they must get that A and feels like a failure because despite working hard he/she did not get the A. This is particularly hard to accept for students who have excelled academically all their lives, and lets face it, of those who have been accepted, who has not been outstanding? </p>
<p>It just so happens that my D is doing very well academically, but if she were not, I believe that she would still be happy because the schools climate is one in which she is comfortable. However, grade obsession is not the only source of unhappiness. A student for whom the ideal college would revolve around the more typical scene of football, fraternities, sororities and the like, would be disappointed at Swat. Small campuses, not just Swarthmore, can be suffocating if a student is out of synch with the rest of the student body.</p>
<p>Without nothing to back me up and just based on my gut instinct, I would venture to guess, that a student whose decision to apply to Swarthmore was based on rankings and not on familiarity with the ethos of the school, who while in high school set out to accomplish extracurricular activities to impress adcoms and not because he/she was genuinely driven by some sort of passion, would not feel very happy in the Swarthmore bubble and would have a hard time adjusting. </p>
<p>Thus as you go forward in making your choice, do take a hard look at yourself and be brutally honest. If you fell in love with the school mainly because of rankings and not because of its other attributes, you need to figure out if you can live with a less than perfect average. If you cant, I would encourage you to accept elsewhere. But if you are really passionate about something and like to learn for the sake of learning without regard to what grade you may earn, Swarthmore may just be the place for you…</p>
<p>I want to get in. What you describe is ultimately my definition of the best school ever.</p>
<p>
The “misery poker” is part of Swarthmore culture. Just like complaining about the food at Sharples. You shouldn’t take it literally.</p>
<p>During breaks, when I feel like posting, I often encourage prospective students to find their fit within their respective needs within a school that would attend to their success apart from the anguish and the determination of their often dominant parental overachievers.</p>
<p>I for one, never applied to Swarthmore as it bores me, being the nurdy school it is. Beings a Williams student, I love this campus and this school. Yet Swarthmore along with many other tier one schools excites me. I applied Williams because I knew where I belong. You however, take great personal interest in attempting to extrude academic outcomes with no analytic ability as to the prospective students interests and future achievements.</p>
<p>How disappointing when feeling such gladness in hearing about others expectations and their hopes regarding admissions, yet having to listen to your inane remarks about other competative institutions.</p>
<p>It is stressful being in an environment that have great academic expectations and where competing elements combine to create challenging environments, yet only to hear your disparaging comments regarding competing schools. You should focus more on helping other prospective student find their place that fits their needs and help them achieve their choices, rather than attempting to shore up your prejudices towards your school of your choice.</p>
<p>Life has many sound choices and scholarship rises from many institutions, many of which are not well known.</p>
<p>Ability lies within the individual and not the institution. </p>
<p>Wear your prejudice upon your sleeve rather than in your pocket.</p>
<p>^Who exactly is the “you” referenced in the previous post? (Also, in a seriously non-sardonic aside, if you’re going to write in fancy paragraphs, it would be nice to proof-read as well. Too many errors are confusing.)</p>
<p>HorseRadish I really have no idea what you’re referencing because people in this forum section and on this thread are pretty blunt about Swarthmore’s character and how it is for a certain subset of students. Talking about Swat’s positive qualities isn’t the same as dissing its peer institutions (a little self-conscious, are we?). Everyone here knows that Swat isn’t the kind of place that should be forced upon a student and that’s why they’re giving honest, frank accounts of life there – so that students can decide for themselves whether they would belong there, or at one of it’s fantastic peer institutions, or somewhere else entirely! Forcing the wrong type of student into attending Swat could produce a pretty horrible result which I think most people are aware of…</p>
<p>Also, I agree with Keilexandra; a proof read wouldn’t kill you. Hey, it might even make your point (which was a tad hazy) a little more clear. Nice to know you’re getting your money’s worth at Williams 
heh.</p>
<p>Yes, I appreciate your comments. Let us peruse.</p>
<p>There were late night indulgences that led to proofreading errors, but those comments were directed to previous postings by parents or elders who chose to dump on Williams, and that is what led to my remarks.</p>
<p>Swarthmore, along with a small number of LAC’s, are great institutions, none of whom bear the disrespect of others commentators throughout the commentaries. </p>
<p>We each have our differences, and those that are valid, should remain the focus of prospective students for evaluation and not denigration. My perception was that specific comments about Williams were made regarding Williams College that required a just response. Perhaps that seemed inappropriate, but Williams is an institution that stands for virtue and valor, and as we support all great schools or rank, we support the idea that each prospective student finds the right college. We respect their choice for it, for it reflects their inner needs and values rather than the pontifications of those merely interested in the numerical conversions for statistical reasons.</p>
<p>Best wishes to Swarties.</p>
<p>Go EPHS!</p>
<p>I am a bit confused as to who denigrated Williams, where, and when. I can only recall interesteddad speaking negatively about Williams, but that is done presumably from his perspective as an alum (of Williams).</p>