<p>InterestedDad - Perhaps you can give me a bit more insight into Swarthmore, if you don't mind. What was the deciding factor(s) in your daughter choosing Swarthmore? Do most students enter with a specific major in mind? One of the facts that I found interesting is that all activities are free (or included in tuition) which I would think fosters a good sense of participation and community. Do kids get into Philly much?
One concern that has come up in our household about small LACs is whether or not there are always new people to meet, or whether you basically know everyone after the first year (which could be a plus or minus, IMO.)<br>
Is it a cut-throat atmosphere, or is there a good sense of camaraderie?</p>
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<p>Initially: The stunning campus. The location -- a bucolic suburb of a major city with a commuter rail station right on campus. A number of sensible policies such as the free events and first semester pass/fail that suggested a college that knew what it was doing. And, a general "vibe" from the students she met on the tour.</p>
<p>Subsequently: Meeting alum after alum who just raved about the place and an overnight visit in October where she just felt completely at home -- the enthusiasm of the professors, the willingness of staff to spend time with her, the palpable sense of community, and a connection with her hosts in the dorm. </p>
<p>Her expectations have been exceeded. I would say that what you see is what you get, except that the college undersells itself.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Do most students enter with a specific major in mind? </p> </blockquote>
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<p>"Undecided" is the most popular answer on the application. Most Swatties change their minds. A Swarthmore tradition is the annual screening of "The Graduate". The whole campus shouts in unison Benjamin's famous line about not knowing what he wants to do with his life.</p>
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<p>My daugher took the train to Philly tonight with a large group of friends. They were going to dinner at some Dominican/Puerto Rican restaurant to celebrate somebody's birthday. I think it's their fourth night on the town in Philly plus a group weekend trip to NYC, since September. So I would say, yes, they go into the city pretty often -- maybe every three weeks or so. It varies -- some Swatties don't go to Philly as much. </p>
<p>General shopping is right around the corner -- a shopping mall, Target, Best Buy commerical district about a half mile from campus -- accessible by foot, college shuttle vans on Saturdays, or a five minute city bus ride.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>One concern that has come up in our household about small LACs is whether or not there are always new people to meet, or whether you basically know everyone after the first year (which could be a plus or minus, IMO.)</p> </blockquote>
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<p>I do think the two disadvantages of LACs in general are that the walls of the ivory tower get a little claustrophobic after four years and the students can be a little too homogenous. Swat's easy access to Philly (for a breath of real-world air) and diversity/quirkiness quotient were big pluses for my daughter.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Is it a cut-throat atmosphere, or is there a good sense of camaraderie?</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Talking about grades is culturally taboo at Swarthmore. Public displays of cutthroat competition is "just not done". I'm sure it must exist in certain areas (pre-med), but the campus culture leans towards study groups and students working together. Part of that may be "shared misery". Actually, they seem to enjoy the challenge, but it is hard. When you get your first "C", you are not alone!</p>
<p>There are very strong support functions that are widely used. For example, every freshman is assigned a student academic mentor -- an upperclassman to talk to, seek advice, etc. There is a terrific Writing Associates program -- trained students who read your first draft of a paper and make suggestions to improve it. Math Clinics with regular evening hours to help with math problem sets, etc. My daughter and several of her friends are regulars at their math professors' weekly Thurs. afternoon office hour sessions.</p>
<p>There's a terrific three-day program at the end of Christmas break where faculty and upperclass students conduct three days of workshops for freshmen on reading skills, time-management, and general strategies for handling the first graded semester. </p>
<p>The camaraderie is extreme. My daughter has more than a dozen "best friends" on her hall, guys and girls -- they do everything together, study, party, eat. Like I said, 16 of them went to New York for the weekend, staying with the saint/parents of one of her friends. When she's home, she's on the computer instant messaging her Swat friends. These kids are like her best friend in high school and the bond was instant.</p>
<p>One of the really good things is that freshmen are placed in regular dorms instead of being segregated. So, for example, my daughter has a senior in the next room who has been friendly and helpful in talking through course selections, professors to seek out or avoid, potential majors, etc. It doesn't stop the freshmen from running in packs, but it helps integrate them into the overall campus community. I think that policy has a major impact on the self-sustaining and very distinctive campus culture at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Your insights are extremely valuable and much appreciated. Swarthmore may be one of many good fits for D to explore, in terms of her personality and interests. Thinking of waiting to visit real reaches until D and S have some idea of standardized scores. Hopefully PSATs will give us some indication of future performance - or are they like the stock market?
Wondering how the brand new PSAT/SAT will affect admissions for the Class of 2006.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Thinking of waiting to visit real reaches until D and S have some idea of standardized scores. </p> </blockquote>
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<p>Probably a good idea. </p>
<p>My daughter first visited Swarthmore pre-SAT. We had to really tamp down enthusiasm at that point, none of us having the faintest idea whether or not it would even be in the realm of posssibility. </p>
<p>Fortunately, kids are smart. They seem to understand what a "reach" means. I don't think she ever allowed herself to think it would happen until the acceptance letter came in the mail.</p>
<p>Interesteddad: could you speak a little on the actual workload. I think Swathmore would be a nice fit for my D1 (obviously a reach school in terms of admission; see my thread on eastcoast planning), but I worry that the "pressure" might be too much. Any insights woulld be appreciated.</p>
<p>CD</p>
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<blockquote> <p>could you speak a little on the actual workload. </p> </blockquote>
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<p>I feel like it is too early to really give a reliable answer on that. I know that the "academic intensity" issue was something we kicked around a lot during the college search. We were careful to make sure that taking on a place like Swarthmore was my daughter's choice and that she made the choice with her eyes open.</p>
<p>So far, I would say that the academics have lived up to the reputation, although I can't say that my daughter seems terribly stressed about it or that it has cut into her ability to have fun. She has spent several hours each day she has been home reading, doing physics problem sets, or working on a paper. But, I think that's just a routine and she wasn't complaining about it. </p>
<p>Parents grilling them about grades is definitely high on the college students' resentment list, so what I know about Swat's academic workload comes from volunteered information and a little bit of probing.</p>
<p>On various assignments and tests, she's gotten the full gamut of every (passing) grade, so it's certainly not going to be the "easy A's" that she's used to. Probably the biggest surprise (given her math AP, SAT, and SATII test scores) is that advanced Calculus has kicked her in the butt a little bit. However, that's not exclusive to Swarthmore. My wife says that she hears of math struggles from many Harvard students and we know another straight A high school student who is staring at a "C" in calculus at smaller Ivy League school.</p>
<p>What I can say is that the first semester pass/fail is one of the best policies an academically intense college can have. There is a definite learning curve for most kids to step up their game (as you would hope their would be!). Given that these kids are universally accustomed to automatic A's, relieving that expectation during a period of immense transition is a big plus, IMO.</p>
<p>I think at this point, my worst-case fear has been unfounded. I'm confident that my public high school daughter can handle the work and get a degree from Swarthmore in four years and I think that is true for virtually anyone accepted there. It's not clear yet where she might end up on the pecking order, both in terms of GPA and how much challenge she takes on through selection of majors and courses. My attitude is, "she'll work it out". I have been impressed with her thinking on course selection, she seems to have a handle on balancing the academic workload and is in the process of figuring out what she enjoys and doesn't enjoy.</p>
<p>Yep, I would be interested in more info on Swat as well. We are hoping to visit this summer. I am having trouble getting son to look much at schools as he is so focused on all the stuff he is doing now. I don't know a lot about Swat, but it looks like it might be a fit for him. He has expressed interest in Haverford. In what ways are the 2 schools different?</p>
<p>Shennie:</p>
<p>Being small academically rigorous Quaker-founded liberal arts colleges in nice suburbs of Philadelphia, there are more similarities between Haverford and Swarthmore (and Bryn Mawr) than differences.</p>
<p>The biggies are:</p>
<p>a) Swarthmore has more than double the endowment, one of the top dozen or so per student endowments of any college or university in the country. Endowment translates directly into per student spending -- facilities, faculty, funding for activities, etc. It's not a coicidence that the highest rated schools are the schools with the largest endowments.</p>
<p>b) Haverford was an all-male school for most of its history. Swarthmore was co-ed from the beginning and its by-laws required an equal number of men and women on the Board of Managers. Although subtle, the key role of women and men at Swarthmore has had a signficant effect on the campus culture compared to the traditionally single-sex private schools.</p>
<p>c) Haverford is considerably smaller than Swarthmore -- perhaps too small, given that Swat (at under 1500 students) is probably borderline critical mass. It is somewhat wealthier, at least in terms of percentage of kids receiving finacial aid. It is slightly less diverse, with the big difference being a smaller international population.</p>
<p>d) Haverford is slightly less selective, but still plenty hard to get into.</p>
<p>Swarthmore, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr allow cross-registration for each others courses. Although, as a practical matter, I don't think there's a lot of cross-registration with Swarthmore. Much more between Haverford and Bryn Mawr which are within a mile of each other. What they don't tell you in the glossy brochures is that the popular courses are "lotteried" at small liberal arts colleges, so you have no prayer of getting in one from a cross-registration school.</p>
<p>Interesteddad,
Thanks so much for your input, here and on other threads, Swarthmore sounds like a possible place for my daughter--we'll see if it's at all realistic after SATs in January.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info Interesteddad. I was aware that Haverford used to be all male but I guess I hadn't really thought about how that would affect its overall culture, although it makes a lot of sense. I am hoping we can visit both this summer and get a better idea of both of them.</p>
<p>Actually, the lack of women probably had less impact at Haverford because you also had the strong Quaker influence. I don't think the differences in culture between Haverford and Swarthmore are terribly pronounced. For example, Haverford dumped their football team 30 years ago, something most traditionally-male colleges would never do.</p>
<p>The differences between co-ed Swarthmore and the non-Quaker mens colleges, such as Williams and Amherst, are more striking. For example, Swarthmore has been the most "intellectual" of the small liberal arts colleges, a characteristic that dates back to a specific college president in the 1920s and the unique honors program he implemented. He met with considerable resistance from the Board of Managers and school historians seem to think it was the interest in academic excellence by the female half of the Board of Managers that allowed him to implement his serious academic programs. The men were generally more inclined towards the semi-pro football, fraternity, Joe College qualities that swept US education in the pre-WWII era.</p>
<p>I think the co-ed issues are rapidly fading. After all, it has been thirty-five years since all the male colleges starting enrolling women. There is, however, still an imbalance on the Boards of Directors at most of those schools. And, I do think the cultures at most of these schools were firmly entrenched fifty to one hundred years ago.</p>
<p>Swarthmore's "inclusiveness" was most certainly driven by the women -- specifically when sororities were voted out of existence by the female Swarthmore students, who objected to the sororities not accepting Jewish members.</p>
<p>It's a little harder to pinpoint the precise cause of Swarthmore's strong community and concensus-driven approach to campus governing. I would chalk that up to equal parts Quaker influence and the influence of women in the student body.</p>
<p>Well, I think the thing that attracted my son to Haverford in the first place was its Quaker background, although we are not Quaker. He also wants to attend a school in or near a large metro area. He also is interested in many other things that may or may not be available at schools such at Haverford or Swat, but it is nice to know what some of the differences are so I can start helping him figure out what exactly he wants to focus in on.</p>