<p>A smart jock who is really and truly coming to terms with his intellect and what he wants to do in college. He absolutely knows that at this point in life, his sport comes second to his academics.</p>
<p>Basically, he's being heavily recruited by coaches at both Swarthmore & Vassar. I think that he feels he could probably "fit in" at either one. Academically, both are probably high matches - Swarthmore a little higher! His sport is definitely going to help him in admissions. He's met team members and feels like they are totally good guys and he could have a good college experience at either school.</p>
<p>I think what's holding him up in really coming to a final decision about where he wants to be is that both of these schools come with their own little reputation - and I don't mean that in a bad way. There definitely not "bad" reputations. Maybe they're just in my head, but it's not only what I read here on CC. It's also people I speak to in general.</p>
<p>You can't read a Swat thread without numerous people talking about the workload. He's been told by a few team members that it is definitely a serious workload, but they all manage. He's an extremely hard worker with a great work ethic. I think he feels that he too could "manage", but he definitely wants to have time to have regular college fun. Alot of people react to Swarthmore by saying it's just so "intellectual."</p>
<p>Vassar has the reputation of being so "artsy" and definitely not known for its athletics. I'm also sort of shocked about how many people think it's still all girls! Why is that? </p>
<p>I've heard that both of these schools are trying to build-up their athletics alittle. Not sure if that's true or not.</p>
<p>I guess what I'm looking for are students (or parents of students) who have had personal experiences at either of these schools who can tell me how the student/athletes "fit in". Anyone have any words of wisdom? Thanks much!</p>
<p>I have a D who very happily plays a sport (played two freshman year) at Swat. PM me if you want to ask specific questions.</p>
<p>People still think Vassar is a women's college because it had such a high profile, as one of the Seven Sisters. But hey - the world is full of people who ask if Swarthmore is a women's college, even though it was coed from the outset. Neither school has high dry-cleaner recognition. :D</p>
<p>
[quote]
But hey - the world is full of people who ask if Swarthmore is a women's college, even though it was coed from the outset.
[/quote]
I've noticed that too, and I'm not sure why people make this obviously faulty connection. It may be that people confuse Swarthmore with Skidmore -- and Skidmore (like Vassar) was historically a women's college.</p>
<p>I think that your son shouldn't consider generalizations and should instead consider where he'd feel he'd fit in and which school would offer the best opportunities for him (using the word "opportunities" very broadly here). He met and bonded with members of both teams, and he should be proud that he and his teammates can defy one-sided generalizations. I think every school suffers from the stereotypes that surround it, and I feel that if people just cleaned their glasses more regularly they'd see what's really out there instead of overwrought and oversimplified descriptions.</p>
<p>Your son should pay close attention to the campus dynamics and overall experience at both V and S. I know which one I would prefer, but I'm not your son.</p>
<p>china, my son is not a team athlete but he's physically active/outdoorsy. He palled around with jocks in highschool so he was looking for a guy comfortable environment. He is also an artist and needed a strong arts focused environment. His reaction to Swarthmore was very much like your son's. </p>
<p>Interestingly our tour guide was a male athlete, fraternity member, which led me to believe that the college was trying to balance their egghead image. Like all small colleges, Swarthmore has a high percentage of varsity players, but I got the impression that athletes were still cultural outliers.</p>
<p>He didn't look at Vassar at all -- the female to male ratio and overtly artsy culture was off-putting. In retrospect, he probably should have given it more consideration.</p>
<p>Ultimately his shortlist list was Williams (where he ended up), Wesleyan, Hamilton, Kenyon. If art had not been a factor he would have added Bowdoin and Amherst. </p>
<p>I think culture is really, really important at liberal arts colleges. It's subjective and intangible but you know it when you feel it.</p>
<p>Athletes fit in just fine at Swarthmore. I think Swarthmore students are generally accepting of all types of people, and it's not like athletes will be shunned or anything. We treat athletes as we'd treat anyone else. Has your son even gotten into these schools yet? I see that all over the place here--people are too busy making their final decisions about "where to go" when they haven't even gotten it yet! Swarthmore students do get a lot of work, and I think most freshmen have to at some point adjust to the work load and to the college environment, but the workload is not unbearable.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the replies......I definitely appreciate the info!</p>
<p>Harriet: I LOVE the "high dry-cleaner recognition" line - or should I say lack thereof!! I actually think that's a good thing in a college. If I can figure out how, I'll definitely PM you. I'm sure you could give me lots of great insight.</p>
<p>Momrath: It's funny, because Kenyon is also in the running for my son. He actually liked it very much, but it's a little further than he wanted to travel.</p>
<p>dchow: No, he hasn't gotten in yet. However, at Swarthmore the coach has told him that admissions has said he's "an outstanding applicant", his test scores are right at the 50% mark for their students, the coach will put "100% of his weight" behind his application/admission, and he'd like my son to apply ED II. Now I realize nothing is ever set in stone until you get the acceptance letter, but it sounds like he has a pretty good shot. Don't you think it's a good idea to ask these questions early in the process so you can make an informed decision? Your comment about being "too busy making their final decisions....when they haven't gotten in yet" does not make sense to me.</p>
<p>I guess that's a good point. Some questions it would be better to ask later in the year, when the student's matured a bit more, though, like whether a student will be okay with Swarthmore's heavy work load.</p>
<p>Both of your comments make sense. dchow's assessment is correct for an unhooked applicant. In that case, admission to Swarthmore is hardly a sure bet for anybody.</p>
<p>China's assessment is correct for a recruited athlete. The coach has all but said he's using one of the 60 or so tips and the Admissions office has not only said that China's son is "admissable", but that he's a strong applicant. Strong applicants with athletic tips get admitted with a great certainty unless it turns out they are wanted for armed robbery in four states.</p>
<p>"Since 1981 the "Centennial Conference" has been considered the nation's elite small colleges athletic conference.</p>
<p>Eleven highly selective private colleges compose the Centennial Conference. Most institutions are renowned nationally for their traditions in higher education excellence, each with impressive academic histories."</p>
<p>China, Applying ED, whether EDI or EDII, is a serious commitment. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone with reservations, even if it means losing the benefit of an athletic tip. As I said, culture is critical at LACs and it's sometimes hard for kids to articulate their reaction to the atmosphere. It can be visceral and immediate. </p>
<p>Overnights can help a lot to solidify opinion, positive or negative. </p>
<p>Did your son look at Hamilton, Bowdoin, Williams, Amherst?</p>
<p>Momrath - Yup, has done the overnight at Swarthmore and will be doing one at Vassar. They are definitely helpful. He eliminated 2 other schools after the night at Swarthmore. The other schools you mention were never really in the mix. Amherst & Williams were slightly considered, but he didn't get the greatest vibe from either coach there.</p>
<p>Interesteddad - You don't really think they'll find out about that whole pesky "armed robbery" thing, do you? It was a few years ago...........Just kidding!!</p>
<p>As far as the athletics, I think both schools are definitely trying to build up their sports programs. That might really be a good thing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
he didn't get the greatest vibe from either coach there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's possibly because athletic recruiting will target different mixes of athletes depending on the school.</p>
<p>Most LACs give the athletic department 65 or so "tips" -- basically slots to choose impact players for the teams subject to admissions department veto power.</p>
<p>The variability comes from:</p>
<p>a) How are these tips allocated among the teams? Schools using tips on football and ice hockey have fewer to spread around to the other mens and womens teams.</p>
<p>b) How low will they go? Every school will bend their academic qualifications to get an impact player, but they vary in how low they will go and the mix of academic qualifications in the pool of tipped athletes. This is further complicated by the fact that some athletic departments won't "waste" a tip on an applicant who might get admitted without the boost from the athletic department, prefering to use the tips for impact athletes who would have no prayer of admission on academic qualifications alone.</p>
<p>**c) How good are the athetes they can get? **For example, a sports powerhouse like Williams attracts nationally ranked athletes in many sports. Those are going to squeeze out coach's tip interest in an athlete who might well be considered "impact" at another school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since 1981 the "Centennial Conference" has been considered the nation's elite small colleges athletic conference
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't want sound dismissive of Centennial Conference athletics...but "the nation's elite small colleges athletic conference" ? Realistically, that's the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC). The Centennial Conference is (literally) not in the same league.</p>
<p>Wikipedia goes on to state that Centennial Conference schools:</p>
<p>
[quote]
are also competitive nationally in athletics with the conference members have won five NCAA team titles - Franklin & Marshall women's lacrosse (2007), Ursinus field hockey (2006) and Washington's men's lacrosse (1998) and men's tennis (1994, 1997) teams.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well and good. But for comparison, NESCAC schools won six NCAA team titles last year alone -- that's Middlebury for M soccer, Williams for W tennis and W rowing, Amherst for W cross-country, Bowdoin for field hockey, and Trinity for baseball. Trinity also won the national men's squash championship, but that's not an NCAA sport.</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins, a Centennial Conference member, is probably the nation's most successful and renowned lacrosse school. But JHU plays lacrosse at the Division I level (with athletic scholarships), not in the Division III Centennial Conference, so its numerous lacrosse championships can't be counted.</p>
<p>The recruiting and athletics budgets at the NESCAC schools puts the Centennial Conference to shame. The Centennial Conference is more of an old-school scholar-athlete model with quite a few of the schools not even playing football and none of them recruiting for ice hockey. There's no comparison to the massive emphasis on sports in the NESCAC. There are no $6 million athletic budgets in the Centennial Conference.</p>
<p>I agree about NESCAC and Centennial as far as athletic prestige. I think that along with the prestige comes intensity. That's one of the reasons my son likes the Centennial better. He's been there/done that with the super competitive level of his sport in high school. I'm talking crazy intense - probably more so than either Swarthmore or Vassar as far as time and commitment.</p>
<p>One of the NESCAC schools was recruiting him for their very strong program, and he's eliminated that school because he just doesn't want to compete at that intense a level in college. As I said in my original post, he definitely wants to put the academics first and still have time for some fun in college.</p>
<p>"Since 1981 the "Centennial Conference" has been considered the nation's elite small colleges athletic conference."</p>
<p>Centennial is probably stronger than Liberty, but neither Swarthmore nor Vassar are exactly athletic powerhouses. As I said, that's totally fine with my son.</p>
<p>If I understand your point correctly, your son has done his due diligence on Swarthmore (and will do on Vassar) but he's not totally convinced that either of these is the school for him. He sees athletics as a means to an end which is the best education he can get.</p>
<p>Well, I say, your son should listen to his gut. When it comes to LACs fit is everything. It's not just academic fit. If they admit you, most likely they'll pull you through. I wouldn't worry about that part even if Swarthmore is an academic reach. </p>
<p>What I'm talking about is cultural fit. Either you find your people or you do not. There just aren't enough slots at a 1600 to 2000 student LAC to allow for a wide range of cultures. Diversity of race, economics, religion, yes. Diversity of character, no. It is attidudinal and emotional, like falling in love. You can't articulate it but you know it when you feel it.</p>
<p>I like Swarthmore a lot. I wish I had gone to Swarthmore but no way would it have been the right place for my son in spite of its enormous academic positives.</p>