Swarthmore vs. Bowdoin

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hey Everyone,</p>

<p>I am trying to decide which school to apply EDI to. I love love both schools but I need to figure out which would be better for me. I am a African-American female from NYC and I play lacrosse (both coaches want me to apply ED to play on their teams). I am not going to post my stats because I go to a highly competitive private school that has no class rank, does not calculate GPA and gives out no honors. </p>

<p>I love Bowdoin because of its beautiful campus, its warm atmosphere and great athletics program. Swarthmore is great because of its prime location, incredible teachers and academics (I sat in on some classes here), and I think it is more generous in terms of financial aid. The two concerns I have with both schools is that Bowdoin is so far away and in the middle of nowhere (really inconvenient in terms of internships, etc.) and I hear Swatties have no fun and work 24/7 (although I love learning, it is college after all and I want to have fun as well!). I just came back from Discovery Weekend at Swarthmore and had a great time (thus leading to my new-found conflict) so my parents think I should apply to Swarthmore ED but I think I need some outside opinions! What do you think? Please help me!!</p>

2

<p>An academically competitive African-American female who plays Lacrosse will have absolutely no problem being admitted at either school, and will be in no need of an ED boost (even if it exists). And you note that financial aid is a concern. So why not wait - apply to both, see what you think WHEN you are accepted to both and can compare financial aid offers (and, if you choose, can leverage one against the other?)</p>

3

<p>Well, you seem to have all the facts, and you have a decision before you that is utterly fantastic. There's no downside either way you choose. Princeton Review's blurbs on Student Body and Campus Life are often interesting - check them out and see if it moves one campus ahead of the other.</p>

4

<p>I would go Bowdoin because it seems to me to provide a more well-rounded college experience for the small amount less academic respect it has vs Swarthmore, but it depends what you're hoping to get out of college and no one but you can answer that. It also matters what you're planning on studying to some extent. In addition, where are you from? It's doubtful you're going to want to do an internship during the school year (especially with the workload of Swarthmore), so proximity to a major city doesn't seem so important to me. It depends where you're looking to go. For Summer internships, Swarthmore probably has more of a network in the mid-Atlantic states and Bowdoin probably has more of a network in New England.</p>

5

<p>Thanks for all the advice! I am from New York City so having connections in the mid-Atlantic states is bit better for me. Also a concern is that Bowdoin is about 6.5 hours away from where I live so I could only visit home a few times a year. </p>

<p>I have to hand in my "Intent to Apply ED" form to my school tomorrow and I think for now I will be applying early to Swarthmore but that is subject to change since I am visiting Bowdoin again (overnight this time) in a couple of weeks. </p>

<p>I am still open to further advice/opinions though! Anyone care to talk about the workload at Swarthmore? Is it so overwhelming that you have no time for a social life?</p>

6

<p>Two terrific schools. Swarthmore is a little more intellectual/high academic, Bowdoin a little more well rounded and less "nerdy" (not my word, it's how a lot of Swatties describe themselves and their classmates). Bowdoin is a little more "jockish" so if the lacrosse is important to you Bowdoin might be a better choice---though I notice that Swarthmore has also had some very good women's lacrosse teams some years (not last year), somewhat uncharacteristically for a school not ordinarily known for its athletic prowess.</p>

<p>I say just go with the one that feels right; it's hard to go wrong with this choice. And I wouldn't worry too much about the summer internship opportunities. These are both very well connected schools whose graduates go on to do great things.</p>

7

<p>My daughter graduated from Swarthmore in June, lives with three other Swattie grads, and knows a lot of Swarthmore students. With few exceptions, the Swatties she knows all had lots of fun in college. They also studied hard and very much enjoyed the Swarthmore academics.</p>

<p>You were there for two nights and three days. What you saw is what you get.</p>

<p>I think you've identified location as one of the major differences between Bowdoin and Swarthmore. Swarthmore is in a major metro area. Only 10% of the students have cars. They routinely go to NYC on the train (or Chinatown bus). Bowdoin is in Maine.</p>

<p>Two differences that you have not mentioned:</p>

<p>a) Swarthmore has a significantly larger per student endowment, i.e. more financial resources. This shows up in many ways, including loan free financial aid packages.</p>

<p>b) Swarthmore is much more diverse. This year's freshman class is just 54% white, US students. The overall student body was 56% white, US students last year. It is one of the most diverse selective colleges in the country and that diversity drives the campus culture in ways that are hard to fully explain -- although I'm sure you saw it during Discovery Weekend. Minority students (and administrators and faculty and staff) are not add-ons to a white, male campus culture at Swarthmore. Every time I have been on campus, it is THE most striking quality of the College.</p>

8

<p>mnairne,
My son is an '07 Swat graduate who, like you, went to a "highly competitive private school" in NYC. No class rank and no GPA calculation. You have undoubtedly been as well prepared for college as he was. The Swarthmore academics were not a shock to his system, and he DID NOT work 24/7. He was heavily involved in at least two extra-curricular activities while there and also graduated from Swarthmore's Honors Program. As interesteddad said, you will find Swarthmore to be a more diverse community than Bowdoin. My guess is that you would be more comfortable at Swat, and I know you'll be able to handle the work because of your great high school preparation. :)</p>

<p>As for travel, he did find it pretty convenient to get home via train. (He never had a car.) He either took the commuter line (SEPTA) which stops right at the foot of campus into Philly and then picked up Amtrak to NYC, or for a cheaper alternative took the SEPTA train into Trenton and then picked up NJ Transit into Penn Station.</p>

9

<p>For any public school kids reading:</p>

<p>My daughter went to a decent regional public high school in Massachusetts. Maybe top third of Mass public high schools, but not one of the noted feeder schools. She took two or three AP courses, which was all she could take at her school in the major subjects.</p>

<p>She did not find the Swarthmore academics a shock to her system either (well, except for the advanced calc semester fall of freshman year!) </p>

<p>She took advantage of the academic support -- study groups in Physics and Calc, Writing Associates peer review for papers, studying in the library with friends. She studied diligently and on a routine schedule during the week. She learned how to prioritize the assignments and prepare for contributing in each class session (thanks to seniors on her hall freshman year for giving tricks and tips to a newbie!). She ended up with a great education and a GPA that gives her a sense of real accomplishment and pride. She managed to have her share of fun and never indicated any killer stress (outside of exam weeks when all the papers were due). She pulled her first college all-nighter second semester senior year the night she finished her thesis.</p>

<p>The workload question is tricky to answer. Yes, Swarthmore students work hard. They go to Swarthmore like good golfers who want to play a championship course from the back tees. But, the whole school is set up for students to not only handle the academics, but to enjoy them. I don't think the workload at Swarthmore is any more than a diligent good student would put in at any top school. I just think that, on average, a high percentage of the student body is fully engaged in the academics because, after all, that's why they went there is the first place. That high degree of academic engagement makes for a very rewarding experience for professors and students.</p>

10

<p>I agree with interesteddad about choosing Swat. You will have the opportunity to take classes at through the tri-college consortium (Bryn Mawr, Haverford & Swat) in addition you will have the opportunity to take classes at Penn. So even though it is a small school, there will be more opportunities for the school to feel larger. </p>

<p>You are a quick hop to Philadelphia and you can even do to NYC and back in a day (if you can't afford the amtrak, you can take NJ transit into penn station) if you need a big city fix.</p>

<p>also sending you a PM.
I will put it to you like I put it to my own D. You have to ask the hair question. If you are a person with high maintenance hair (you like to have your wrap-done every one to 2 weeks, you have to get a perm, touch up, braids, whatever), you will definitely be able to have this done in easier in Philly than you would in maine (and probably less expensive also).</p>

<p>Swat is way more culturally diverse that Bowdoin.</p>

11

<p>Academically, both are excellent schools. I have difficulty imagining a student that would be equally attracted to these colleges due to the significant differences in school cultures.
Your situation suggests that you would be better served by NOT applying ED to ANY school as you may not fully realize at this time the collegiate opportunities coming your way. I feel comfortable offering this advice to you based solely on your posted info. in this thread, and on the fact that an applicant equally considering two such dissimiliar school cultures needs to look further into her options.</p>

12

<p>I can understand being attracted to both Bowdoin and Swarthmore. I think my daughter would have been initially attracted to Bowdoin if it hadn't been an hour away from home with even worse weather. They are both very good schools and both pretty mellow. </p>

<p>Sometimes it's a little hard to see the forest for the trees on campus cultures. For example, I don't know how many high school students would stop to look up Maine's demographics and consider their impact of four years of her life. Maine makes Utah look diverse:</p>

<p>Black: 0.8%
Asian: 0.9%
Hispanic/Latino: 1.0%
White: 95.8%</p>

<p>As for early decision, I agree that it is a mistake to apply ED unless you have a firm first choice. As for the admissions game part of it, I would recommend taking her cues from the guidance counselors at her prep school about where she is likely to be accepted or not. It is easy to just assume that a URM tipped applicant will be automatically accepted everywhere. If I were that applicant, I would not want to be quite so cavalier. The acceptance rates for URMs are not very high at these schools (Swathmore's is in the thiry-something percent range. A very highly qualified applicant can get Tufts-syndromed in regular decision. </p>

<p>If I knew Swarthmore were my first choice, I'd nail it down ED (finances permitting)...especially if I were also playing an athletic tip card. A recruit who may not be quite as promising is worth more to the coach Early Decision and may get the tip for that team.</p>

<p>I will say that URM athletes are very highly sought at all of these schools. The athletic recruiting runs heavily white (it's a function of where DIV III athletes come from) and undercuts the very strong priority on diversity at a school like Swarthmore. The coaches are very focused on trying to address that.</p>

13

<p>Your assumption that Swarthmore is more generous regarding financial aid is not accurate in my opinion.
InterestedDad has a great point in suggesting that you nail down an early "offer". I am noting this because you--the OP--have decided not to share stats (which is entirely okay & understandable) thus making any further recommendations guesses at best.
It is nearly impossible to find any school that is academically superior to Swarthmore or Bowdoin--including all of the Ivies--so if you feel comfortable with either one, then apply ED.</p>

14

<p>i would dispute that swarthmore is "way more" culturally diverse than bowdoin. statistically it is more racially diverse, but to speak of the issue in extremes is to distort the difference. indeed, bowdoin is hardly racially homogeneous. it may be interesting for the OP to investigate the diversity of political opinion and ideology on each campus and consider the degree to which exposure to different political perspectives is important in her search for a good fit. </p>

<p>with respect to the point of this thread: i think it's important to visit each campus. if that's difficult or impossible or if your decision isn't made up, perhaps it's prudent to hold back on an ED application. </p>

<p>and to address bowdoin's isolation, i'd should add that i had a semester long internship at an alternative newspaper in portland two days a week my senior year. the commute was no longer than my current commute from brooklyn to manhattan on public transit. philadelphia is a larger city, and will have more opportunities, no doubt, but it's erroneous to say your opportunities for internships at bowdoin are curtailed because of its putative isolation.</p>

15

<p>From the "by the numbers" file:</p>

<p>
[quote]
i would dispute that swarthmore is "way more" culturally diverse than bowdoin.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The numbers speak for themselves. It's not a small difference. Swarthmore is the most diverse highly-selective college or university on the east coast. It is a defining quality of the school, along with being an academic powerhouse. </p>

<p>Bowdoin has decent, but not great diversity. They were late emphasizing diversity, really ramping up their efforts about 10 years ago looking at the graphs. However, they fall short of the mark set by Williams and Amherst among NESCAC schools, which is still well short of Swarthmore's diversity. This is in no way a knock on Bowdoin. Diversity costs big money in recruiting (mnairne can see the cost of all-expenses paid Discovery Weekend for hundreds of students from around the country) and financial aid. The big endowment schools like Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams have an edge in affording diversity. Diversity and endowment are inextricably linked.</p>

<p>



Swat      Bowdoin
7%  3%  International
8%  6%  Black, Non-Hispanic
1%  1%  American Indian or Alaskan Native
17% 13% Asian or Pacific Islander
10% 7%  Hispanic
**56%  70% White, Non-Hispanic**

</p>

<p>There's a big difference between 56% white American and 70% white American. I believe this difference would be apparent in every aspect of campus culture. For example, each fall, the student council meets with the Board of Managers. This year's meeting was given over to the Black Cultural Center and Intercultural Center to discuss the role these two umbrella organizations play in campus life.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your assumption that Swarthmore is more generous regarding financial aid is not accurate in my opinion.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>From the 2007 year end financial reports:</p>

<p>Swarthmore averages $12,838 *in financial aid discounts per student (all students). Bowdoin averages *$10,147. </p>

<p>48% of Swarthmore students received need-based aid compared to only 42% of Bowdoin's students (a very low number, suggesting an effort to enroll full-pay students).</p>

<p>Swarthmore charges $30,417 *per student tuition, room, and board (after discounts). Bowdoin charges *$32,637.</p>

<p>These differences will grow this year as Swarthmore has gone loan-free for all financial aid students, replacing all lone dollars with additional financial aid.</p>

<p>In other comparisons:</p>

<p>Endowment per student
Swarthmore: $985,795
Bowdoin: $478,716</p>

<p>Endowment spending per student
Swarthmore: $35,623
Bowdoin: $14,175</p>

<p>Overall, Swarthmore spends $10,000 to $15,000 more per student (not including financial aid discounts) than does Bowdoin.</p>

16

<p>There is a thread on the parent's forum entitled "how long do you give it" which is about their AA daughter at a top NE LAC who is regretting her matriculation at a less diverse school due to social isolation. I doubt your experience would be the same since you will be on a sports team, but it is thought-provoking and suggests that maybe the diversity stats are worth looking at in your decision making.</p>

17

<p>This question is a bit off-topic, but is there a source for discovering the college endowment per student and endowment spending per student for colleges? Or do you need to investigate the financial year-end statements at individual colleges to gain the figures? Many thanks!</p>

18

<p>OP, I sent you a PM.</p>

19

<p>i agree with interesteddad that the numbers should speak for themselves, so thank you, interesteddad for posting them. percentages are important, but so are absolute numbers of non-white students, particularly with respect to diversity. because swarthmore is a smaller community the absolute number difference is smaller, though still sizeable, than the statistics suggest. bowdoin isn't more diverse, this much is clear. but it's also not undiverse. the question remains: is bowdoin sufficiently diverse for the issue of degree to matter little or much? there are a number of identifying factors about which we can speculate, but it's really the OP's preference that matters in this case. </p>

<p>i think a feel of a place is very important. swarthmore is a fantastic school, but it also has an especially unique feel among LACs, which cannot be encapsulated by diversity data. we all speak from our personal experiences here, and my best friend struggled with swarthmore before leaving because of the campus culture. similarly there are students at bowdoin who leave because of bowdoin's campus culture. i don't want to emphasize the aberrant "poor fits" because, for both schools, they are statistically quite aberrant, but it warrants the OP getting a feel for each place before committing to a place ED. </p>

<p>i think, the OP should consider how much financial aid she's likely to get from each. both schools, i think, have eliminated loans from their financial aid packages. if her family makes under that threshold, then the point becomes moot, although one might consider incidental expenses such as travel to and from (more for bowdoin) and expense of the surrounding area (more for swarthmore). </p>

<p>secondly, will the OP sacrifice her athletic recruitment by applying RD instead of ED? this is likely the case, so the subsequent question should be: how important are athletics and, given that, where would she most enjoy competing. </p>

<p>finally, it's important to consider the liabilities of each place and this is where diversity, campus culture, workload, and surrounding area comes into play. some things are more disparate than others. </p>

<p>in my mind those three areas (financial, athletic, and campus feel) should lead to a decision, but i always say trust your gut on decisions like these, if you have the financial luxury to. </p>

<p>lots of good advice and information on this thread, however. good luck to the OP!</p>

20

<p>Here's a link to per student endowments at Wikipedia:</p>

<p>List</a> of U.S. colleges and universities by endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>It is slightly out of date (June 2006), but these lists don't change much except colleges that are already very close swapping positions depending on endowment return. For example, Amherst nosed ahead of Swarthmore in per student endowment in June 2007. Small differences are not signficant. You are looking for big differences.</p>

<p>For per student endowment spending and per student spending, you really have to go to each college's financial reports and/or discussion. Dig around the website looking for the Finance Office or Controller or VP Stragegic Planning or President's Office. There's no consistency where the financial reporting may be found and it's sometimes hard to find it with the search engine. Some schools do not post their annual financial reports online. That can be a big red flag, IMO. The better reports have some management discussion that helps lead the layperson to keys aspect of the college's financial health -- whether or not the school is "in equlibrium" (i.e. not spending down the endowment) and, if not, what plans are in place to address that.</p>