<p>My senior is trying to decide between Swarthmore and Tufts. Does anyone have insight into the differences between these two schools?</p>
<p>swarthmore is intolerant of non liberal students and lacks diversity of thought.
tufts suffers from it’s status as a safety school for the ivies and carries a chip on its shoulder. also very left wing but bigger and probably more tolerant because of the number of students it has.</p>
<p>That’s disappointing for both but thanks for your input.</p>
<p>The only thing they really have iin common is relatively easy commuting distance to a major American city - so long as you don’t miss the last train home. Tufts is a much more densly populated campus with foot traffic at all hours of the day and night whereas you can literally hear a pin drop on the Swarthmore campus after sundown. That’s basically a function of one being a modest-sized research university and the other being a small liberal arts college.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t call Swatties intolerant. I think they’re pretty good at winnowing through all the arguments on both sides of a social issue. If they happen to come down on the liberal side more often than not, that would put them in pretty solid company, considering their age group. Alas, there was an incident involving a small group of students who commandeered a microphone at a public gathering some months ago, but, I think most Swatties were embarassed by that.</p>
<p>How exactly Tufts “suffers” from being an Ivy safety is beyond me. My D has yet to meet anyone with the reputed “chip on the shoulder”. Such pat, uninformed comments (sure the comment about Swat is a crass generalization, too) don’t help anyone much.</p>
<p>Swat is reputed as being one of the most academically rigorous (and hard to get an A) school in the country. Its Quaker ethos would, I imagine, encourage tolerance and diversity of thought. </p>
<p>Tufts is known for it rigorous academics (not so easy to pull and A there, either) and down-to-earth, affable students. Research and internship opportunities are abundant. Access to Davis and Harvard Squares, as well as Boston, a big plus, adding to the totality of the college experience. </p>
<p>2 great choices!</p>
<p>Swarthmore is a significantly more academic and intellectual place than Tufts. Swarthmore’s Honor program is equivalent to the rigors found in a top graduate program. Swarthmore students have much better outcomes as measured by placement in top graduate programs and the winning of top scholarships (e.g. Rhodes, Marshall, etc.). Swarthmore is significantly wealthier than Tufts on an endowment per student basis, and thus has a smaller student to faculty ratio. Its campus is much more attractive than Tufts - its an arboretum. </p>
<p>Swarthmore is an A+ place; Tufts is an A- place. They are not equivalent schools, especially in terms of academic quality. </p>
<p>Swarthmore students also burn the midnight oil more than Tufts students do. It is a very, very academically rigorous environment. Tufts is rigorous, but not on the level of Swat.</p>
<p>@hockeykid:
</p>
<p>There is virtually no difference in their middle 50% SAT I scores, but a huge difference in campus ambience. The same would be true if the choice were between Swarthmore and Middlebury or Swarthmore and Williams. It’s just more so in the case of Swarthmore and Tufts.</p>
<p>I suspect, without have data before me (and would like to know HockeyKid’s sources for his info) that it is an exaggeration to say that Swat’s graduate school placement has “much better outcomes” than Tufts. </p>
<p>And as far as the intellectual heft of Tufts students vis-à-vis that of Swat students or other top schools… I’d say it’s pretty hefty:</p>
<p><a href=“Lumosity Smartest Colleges”>Lumosity Smartest Colleges;
<p>And, umm, they seem pretty darn happy as freshmen, too:</p>
<p><a href=“25 private colleges with the happiest freshmen - CBS News”>http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-private-colleges-with-the-happiest-freshmen/</a></p>
<p>And can attest to the fact that Tufts’ campus is quite lovely, navigable and tree-endowed. </p>
<p>I don’t think its fair to say that just because swarthmore is a more ‘intellectual campus’ it has a incomparably better education. Some people aren’t necessarily looking for an intellectual campus. Is Oberlin a better school than Dartmouth? </p>
<p>Let’s look at a few key academic output measures (not input measures circuit rider) on Swarthmore: </p>
<p>Fellowships Awards: Since 1970, Swarthmore students have won 30 Rhodes Scholarships, 8 Marshall Scholarships, 151 Fulbright Scholarships, 22 Truman Scholarships, 13 Luce Scholarships, 67 Watson Fellowships, 3 Soros Fellowships, 18 Goldwater Scholarships, 84 Mellon Mays Undergraduate Fellowships, 13 National Endowment for the Humanities Grants for Younger Scholars, 234 National Science Foundation Graduate Fellowships, 35 Woodrow Wilson Fellowships, and 2 Mitchell Scholarships. gondalineNJ chase the data down for Tufts. You’ll find that Tufts does not come close.</p>
<p>Ph.D. Production: The Higher Education Data Sharing Consortium published a study on the Ph.D. productivity of all undergraduate programs in October 2006. The study found that Swarthmore ranked third among all institutions of higher education in the United States as measured by the percentage of graduates who go on to earn PhDs. Only Caltech, at number one, and Harvey Mudd, in second, outranked Swarthmore with Reed, MIT, Carleton, Oberlin, Bryn Mawr, University of Chicago, and Grinnell rounding out the top ten, respectively. Tufts does not comes close.</p>
<p>Admission to Elite Business, Medical and Law Schools: In WSJ Feeder Survey, Swarthmore ranked 10th in the US, Tufts 43rd. <a href=“http://inpathways.net/ipcnlibrary/ViewBiblio.aspx?aid=1577”>InPathWays - Discover latest hot new trending topic, insights, analysis;
<p>When one looks at important process measures like Endowment per Student, Swarthmore has an endowment per student over 10 times that of Tufts. </p>
<p>Swarthmore Endowment: $1.635 with 1545 students
Tufts Endowment: $1.441 billion with 10,685 students</p>
<p>While on the one input measure that circuit rider cites - SAT scores - Swarthmore and Tufts may appear to have similarities, when one examines several output measures, Swarthmore graduates are much higher achieving that Tufts graduates - they have significantly better outcomes. This is because Swarthmore affords a superior academic environment with much greater resources. </p>
<p>.</p>
<p>How does Ph.D production have anything whatsoever to do with ‘educational quality’? Ph.D production - and fellowships - are about what students who go to various schools want to do, not the quality of the schools itself. Pitzer produces more fulbrights than Pomona. Does that mean it’s a better school? Kalamazoo produces more PH.D’s than Hamilton. Is Kalamazoo a better school than Hamilton?</p>
<p>Re: Tufts ranking in the WSJ Feeder Survey vs. Swat… Both schools are within this list/ ranking of top 50 feeder schools, which makes BOTH schools impressive. To extrapolate profoundly enhanced grad school admissions outcomes for Swat over Tufts comes off as, well… potentially overstating a case?</p>
<p>And while we’re looking at “several output measures”, Tufts trumps Swat on the measure below (but would I be so bold as to say that a Tufts education results in “significantly better outcomes”? Would I be so dismissive as to imply, based on this Payscale ranking, that Tufts provides an inconceivably superior education to Swat? No.)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/full-list-of-schools”>http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/full-list-of-schools</a>
(Tufts is #17; Swat is #27)</p>
<p>And here, Swat is nowhere to be found, while Tufts is at a respectable #70 on a list top-heavy with technical shcools:
<a href=“Best Value Colleges | Payscale”>Best Value Colleges | Payscale;
<p>And if IR is the OP’s interest (would like to know what intended field of study is, btw), Tufts is one of top 5 in nation:</p>
<p><a href=“http://internationalrelationsonline.com/education/international-relations-program-rankings/”>http://internationalrelationsonline.com/education/international-relations-program-rankings/</a></p>
<p>@hockeykid:
</p>
<p>Well, SAT scores are the metric most people reach for. Thank you for clawing back thirty years worth of Rhodes scholarships to prove your point. This isn’t to take away from Swarthmore’s success, but, if you want a Rhodes (which, btw, favors colleges with a lot of geographic diversity), or a Fulbright, both of which require nearly four years of nearly flawless politicking, a small school with lots of available handlers is the place to go.</p>
<p>Guest15 - PhD production and the depth/ breadth of scholarships won by graduates are important proxies for educational quality, as is acceptance into top-ranked professional programs. Something powerful is clearly going at Swarthmore from an academic perspective that makes it, in my mind, quite distinctive and of extraordinarily high quality.</p>
<p>GondalineNJ - I take your point on the PayScale data. However, I have issues with the quality of their data collection, and thus always view their conclusions with some skepticism. Also, I view the WSJ survey similarly.</p>
<p>Circuit rider - SAT scores are an input measure. Assuming Tufts and Swarthmore are similarly qualified academically on entrance, something happens at Swat - call it the “production function” - a combination of academic program, rigor, high standards, small classes, resources, etc. to its students that results in much better outcomes. These outcomes are not just better than Tufts. They are better than nearly every college and university in the US.</p>
<p>For the OP. </p>
<p>Because you gave little context around what the interests of your son are, it is impossible to comment on what school is a better fit for him. What can be said safely is that Swarthmore is a better school academically (generally) and that its graduates proportionally have better outcomes when looked at by a few core indicators of academic performance.</p>
<p>Did he visit both schools? Feels comfortable at both places?</p>
<p>D1 (a junior at Tufts) toured Swat. The fit wasn’t right for her there–when the admissions folks talked glowingly of having classes with as few as two students, she knew it wasn’t right for her. Her classes at Tufts range in size from 10-15 to 100 (breadth requirement), mostly under 50, but being in a super-small environment wasn’t what she wanted. If your son values having that kind of small seminar experience then yes, Swat. </p>
<p>Swat does have a reputation of being a highly intellectual school; I suspect that it’s very difficult if not impossible to find an ‘easy’ way to graduate. D1 has by nature chosen an intellectually rigorous path at Tufts, and that’s what she sees with many of her friends. On the other hand, some have chosen to put more time into sports teams or other outside interests, taking on easier majors. </p>
<p>Like others said, two wonderful choices.</p>
<p>Swarthmore does have an amazing reputation, and yes would likely assure more professor contact.
It likely gives good training fro those who want a PhD. (Though with realtively few advanced level courses). IIRC their senior thesis option, while optional, is often elected. And they go an extra step, bringing in outside academics to examine you when you “defend your thesis”.</p>
<p>D1 didn’t want to apply there after visiting, she thought it seemed too academically intense for her tastes. Same reason she nixed U Chicago. Could have been mistaken…</p>
<p>Otherwise though, I personally might rather spend four years at Tufts. Swarthmore just seemed too small to me. I think one could easily become bored there, studies aside. Swarthmore does have that preserve area, but its buildings all look the same, with the same stone. I personally find that style boring to look at. The Tufts campus is nice too, IMO. </p>
<p>Tufts is a good school too.</p>
<p>
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<p>I’d say that at Swarthmore it’s going to be difficult to impossible to avoid professor contact. At Tufts, you can easily have plenty of professor contact…or none. </p>
<p>You should ask on the Swarthmore and Tufts boards, as well. </p>
<p>@HockeyKid </p>
<p>You did nothing to actually refute the argument I put forward except for restating your premise that Ph.d production is a good measure for determining educational quality. I said it once and I’ll say it again - no, it isn’t. We see schools that most of us clearly consider stronger academic schools having worse Ph.d production numbers than less institutions. Let me pose a few more questions for you:</p>
<p>Oberlin produces more Ph.d’s than any of the ivies. Is oberlin a better institution than all of the ivies?</p>
<p>Beloit produces more Ph.d’s than Colby. Is Beloit a better school than Colby?</p>
<p>Knox produces more Ph.d’s than Dartmouth. Is Knox a better school?</p>