<p>My best friend has been accepted to both UC Berkeley and Swarthmore and is absolutely torn between the two. I wanted to help her any way I can so I thought I'd ask some CCers for their advice (actually I'm getting paid for this....kidding). She's an international student (a Korean citizen), clever, witty, with no decided major, interested in both the arts and the sciences. She took AP Statistics, US Government & Politics, Econ (Macro & Micro), World History, Calculus BC, Chemistry, Psychology and Biology in high school, with satisfactory scores in all the subjects (as far as I know).
She's never been to the US before, though she speaks the language well enough, and she was the founder and editor of a school magazine about culture. She can sing (quite well), dance (quite well), play the violin and the piano (esp. the piano, she considered going to a music school during junior high but decided against it) and I know that she'd definitely like to participate in such activities in college. She's the kind of girl who enjoys partying and having fun, but she's also whip-smart and brutally honest. Yes, she knows that Berkeley and Swarthmore are radically different in terms of size and environment and she really should have made up her mind about what she really wanted when she was applying (everyone has been telling her this) but she hasn't had a chance to actually visit any of these schools (and she won't be able to in the near future either) and really get to know them, so she's hesitant about making a decision.</p>
<p>The differences between Swarthmore and UC-Berkeley are so extreme, so fundamental, and so obvious that it is really hard to offer guidance to someone stuck on that choice. I mean, it seems like even the most cursory thought about what college experience someone is looking for would answer that question in rather short order. Having said that, I do appreciate that it is probably difficult for an international student to grasp the diametrically opposite nature of the education.</p>
<p>So strictly from my perspective, there would be four legitimate reasons to choose Berkeley over Swarthmore:</p>
<p>a) Money</p>
<p>b) A strong preference for a California location (say to be near family, etc.)</p>
<p>c) A strong preference for the hustle and bustle of a huge campus and a willingness to put up with the ridiculous class sizes and bureaucratic red tape.</p>
<p>d) A well-defined desire to study in a field that Swarthmore doesn't offer or doesn't offer enough of.</p>
<hr>
<p>From you friend's perspective, I would point to two issues she should consider based on what you have described:</p>
<p>a) Nobody is going to give a damn about her at Berkeley. So, her signficant transition both to college from high school and simultaneously to the US from Korea is going to be largely unassisted at Berkeley....and unassisted in a very large population with little in the way of support services from the University. That may be partially offset by more Korean international students, if she can find them, but basically she'll be left to sink or swim on her own. There is the potential for a very lonely experience. Swarthmore is thoroughly student-centered with instant community from the students, faculty, and staff. There are support services that include something as simple as being able to spend the night in the health center watching TV and being fed chicken soup if she gets the flu. Or, International student coordinators who will actually provide a shoulder when the transition gets to be a little too much. There will be international student groups from the first day of orientation so she has kids to go eat dinner with. From a parent's perspective, I would feel much better knowing that there is some support available sending my kid halfway around the globe. Maybe she won't need it. But, it is would be a very helpless feeling to to get an e-mail from an upset kid, knowing that there is nowhere for her to turn. I got one from my daughter in Beijing, on her fifth day there with no suitcase from the airlines, no clothes, no contact lens, no nothing, saying that she had to stop writing because she was about to cry. You want there to be somewhere to turn both for guidance on how to solve the problem and to just provide a shoulder.</p>
<p>b) Good luck majoring in the sciences and being heavily involved in the arts at a university with 30,000+ undergrads. The whole "interdisciplinary thing" is not what huge universities do best. It is exactly what Swarthmore does best. In fact, it is the essence of what Swarthmore does.</p>
<p>Berkeley is one the strongest institutions for Korean studies in the US. </p>
<p>Therefore, another reason to choose Berkeley over Swarthmoreis there are tons of Koreans and Korean-Americans on campus.</p>
<p>I would contact students from the following organizations or others and find out what the experiences actually are instead of listening to a couple of old folks.</p>
<p>Korean American Student Organization
Korean Presidents Council
Korean Student Association</p>
<p>This a Korean-American link but you may find it helpful. There are over 200 members. There are a couple of e-mail addresses.</p>
<p>There is also this.
<a href="http://students.berkeley.edu/osl/studentgroups/public/index.asp?todo=searchgroups&keyword=korean%5B/url%5D">http://students.berkeley.edu/osl/studentgroups/public/index.asp?todo=searchgroups&keyword=korean</a></p>
<p>Another link. I would contact this department.
<a href="http://ieas.berkeley.edu/cks/%5B/url%5D">http://ieas.berkeley.edu/cks/</a></p>
<p>I don't believe Swat has a Korean studies program.</p>
<p>Swat also has some organizations... I would contact them too.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu%5B/url%5D">www.berkeley.edu</a>
<a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu%5B/url%5D">www.swarthmore.edu</a></p>
<p>I would go to the websites and maybe you can find more info.</p>
<p>If she wants to contact students at Swarthmore, here is a list of student "ambassadors", grouped by country, provided by the admissions office, with names, a little background, and an e-mail address.</p>
<p>dstark is correct. She would not be able to learn Korean at Swarthmore. Chinese and Japanese are the only East Asian languages currently taught at Swarthmore. But, I thought you said "sciences" and "arts".</p>
<p>Interesteddad, youre being a bit dramatic. I am a Swarthmore student, and I really would have loved an instant community from the students, faculty, and staff. Youre depiction of Swarthmore is so saccharine and unrealistic that I cant help laughing. Sure, its a good school with some smart people, but beyond that it has failed to impress me. One might choose UCB over Swarthmore for reasons beyond cost or location. A lot of people would argue that it is actually a superior environment, socially and academically. While Im sure lots of people are really crazy about Swarthmore, a low student-to-faculty ratio does not guarantee a fulfilling educational experience.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One might choose UCB over Swarthmore for reasons beyond “cost” or “location.”
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, I listed four major legitimate reasons to select Berkeley over Swarthmore.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A lot of people would argue that it is actually a superior environment, socially and academically.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's what I said. People who prefer Berkeley are going to choose Berkeley without giving a moment's thought to Swarthmore. I mean seriously....are there two more dissimilar good schools on the face of the earth than Berkeley and Swarthmore?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I really would have loved “an instant community from the students, faculty, and staff.”
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Answer this honestly. You didn't have a group of people from your hall to at least go to dinner with at Sharples so you didn't have to eat alone from your first day on campus? You were not in a first-year seminar with a faculty member who knew your name? Have you used any of the support services: health, pscyh, deans, WA, tutoring? Have you had any difficulty finding two or three faculty members who actually know you to write a recommendation for summer internship or study abroad program?</p>
<p>I'm not saying the transition to college is easy for everyone. It is clearly, clearly not. But, at least the support functions are there, if you choose to avail yourself, without feeling like it's dealing with the federal government. I guarantee that you could go sit down in Jim Larimore's office this aftenoon if you had a serious problem and somebody on that campus would help you try to address your problem.</p>
<p>A little light reading:</p>
<p>
[quote]
it has failed to impress me
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sounds like you pretty much dislike Swarthmore. Where are you transfering to?</p>
<p>"Answer this honestly. You didn't have a group of people from your hall to go to dinner with at Sharples from your first day on campus? You were not in a first-year seminar with a faculty member who knew your name? Have you used any of the support services: health, pscyh, deans, WA, tutoring? Have you had any difficulty finding two or three faculty members who actually know you to write a recommendation for summer internship or study abroad program?"</p>
<p>What you wrote about in the above paragraph is available at larger schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What you wrote about in the above paragraph is available at larger schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Most of it is. In its own way. Although finding it and dealing with it might be like a trip to the Dept of Motor Vehicles.</p>
<p>For example, yes Berkeley has a drop in writing center. Staffed by one person and open only in the daytime. Swarthmore has 70 Writing associates for a campus of 1400 and drop-in review of papers is available in the afternoons and evenings until 10:30.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=21191%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=21191</a>
<a href="http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=15948%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=15948</a>
<a href="http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=24604%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=24604</a></p>
<p>You do not see these kinds of newspaper articles at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>"For example, yes Berkeley has a drop in writing center. Staffed by one person and open only in the daytime"</p>
<p>How do you know this? Why would you know this? Maybe, Berkeley students don't need as much help in their writing? ;)</p>
<p>Dstark:</p>
<p>It's easy to find this stuff. Here's the schedule for Berkeley's drop in writing center.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maybe, Berkeley students don't need as much help in their writing?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe. It's possible that Swarthmore's admissions office just happens to find the students who can't write and Berkeley's finds that ones who can. </p>
<p>Or, maybe there's a different culture in student-centered undergraduate education.</p>
<p>Look, I'm not trying to sell the girl on Swarthmore. Frankly, if someone can't decide between UBerkeley and Swarthmore, they probably should go to Berkeley. That would be my recommendation for any US student still undecided at this point. But, some allowances need to be made for international students who have not visited and who have no frame of reference for a college like Swarthmore.</p>
<p>You'll love this one:</p>
<p>Instructors Bemoan Decreasing Attendance</p>
<p>
[quote]
Declining attendance does not mean that students are not engaged in the course, said panelist Timothy Yiu, a molecular and cell biology student who sat on the panel. </p>
<p>“Just because students aren’t showing up to the class doesn’t mean they are learning less,” he said.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think students at both schools should be contacted. I do think there is a larger Korean presense at Berkeley (one reason I mentioned Korean Studies)and that may make things easier. </p>
<p>Maybe not?</p>
<p>This is just between you and me. If I search for Korean Studies at <a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu%5B/url%5D">www.swarthmore.edu</a> I get several links. If I click on the first link and scroll down, the first school mentioned is Berkeley (I know it's grad school, but still...:)).</p>
<p>Judge for yourself:</p>
<p>Here's a webcast video of an Intro Chem course lecture at Berkeley. It's so cool, the prof wears a microphone like Brittney Spears!</p>
<p>Reminds me of a newspaper article at Swarthmore a couple years ago discussing where is the best place to take a nap on campus. After consideration of many options, the writer decided that, by far, the best place for napping is a lecture class. However, since you might get called on to answer a question if it's your own lecture class, the absolute best napping is to go curl up in the back of somebody else's lecture class!</p>
<p>And, not to leave the humanities out, a History course, with a professor who does a marvelous job reading her lectures to the class!</p>
<p>I have no idea if these lectures are done well or not. There are thousands and thousands of classes taught at Berkeley. Classes taught in a variety of ways.</p>
<p>bmelanie, just have your friend contact students at the two schools.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, I wonder you found unsatisfactory in the history lectures. I actually did not realize you were being sarcastic at first, and I clicked on the web link. I listened to the first lecture and I'm enchanted. This woman is a wonderful pedagogue; I actually have actually been in a state of confusion for several days now about what I am doing in writing a thesis paper for my history course because I sort of forgot what the aims of history are. Listening to this lecture has given me a renewed sense of perspective. </p>
<p>I've listened in to several lectures with audiences of several hundreds, and they would sometimes be fascinating. Small classes have their own merits, but large lectures by leaders of their fields can be wonderfully enriching. </p>
<p>You say that there is this enormous difference between Berkeley and Swarthmore, to the point of lightly deriding a student who would decide between the two. </p>
<p>The lectures you posted actually reveal the largest similarity between the two schools- that you will get an incredible education at both.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...to the point of lightly deriding a student who would decide between the two.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not at all. I started my first answer with four very good reasons that someone would much prefer Berkeley to Swarthmore. I think both schools are equally valid choices depending on what you are looking for. What I would "lightly deride" is a student who can't decide between the two, unless there is an obvious reason like money. It's not like we are talking subtle nuanced differences!</p>
<p>BTW, I thought the content of the history lecture I watched was fine. But, why read it? Why not just assign the essay as homework, getting the "coverage" out of the way, and then actually talk about the stuff a little bit? The lecture on women in 19th century European history surely would have provoked some thoughtful discussion.</p>
<p>Reading a lecture is the total opposite of interactive learning. With the webcasts available, why on god's green earth would anyone show up for that class?</p>
<p>It's true that lectures can be obtained through webcast or be transcribed. I guess probably lectures survive as a pre-internet/computer tradition, somewhat obsolete, yet still very interesting. </p>
<p>There are certain elements to a lecture that make it worth actually showing up though, I think. Normally lectures have a visual component that is important, for example.</p>
<p>BTW, the Chem lecture is brutal. I'd be drooling on my notebook within minutes.</p>
<p>At the end of the lecture, the prof gives a simple 3-choice multiple choice quiz using the fancy TV game show buzzers with the results displayed on the projection screen. The entire lecture hall gets it wrong, he gives them time to discuss with their neighbors and vote again. The entire class gets it wrong again. He gives them the correct answer, and says, "see you on Thursday."</p>
<p>history lecturer graduated from swat</p>