<p>I'm debating applying to Swat early admission, but Wesleyan also has my eye. I'm looking for basically any info you can give me on Swat, or the comparision between the two. I know Wes and Swat are quite similar, maybe the most similar among all of LAC's. Anyway, just any info you can give me to make my decision any easier would be most appreciated!</p>
<p>I don't really perceive Wesleyan and Swarthmore as being all that similar overall:</p>
<p>History</p>
<p>Swat: founded 1864, coed from the beginning
Wes: founded 1831, all male until 1970s</p>
<p>Location</p>
<p>Swat: close-in suburb of Phila, 11 miles to downtown by train, stunningly beautiful campus
Wes: urban, Conn. mill town</p>
<p>Size</p>
<p>Swat: 1475 students
Wes: 2777 students</p>
<p>Diversity</p>
<p>Swat: 62% white/US
Wes: 70% white/US
The difference is almost entirely in the size of the Asian/American enrollment at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Per Student Endowment</p>
<p>Swat: $732,000
Wes: $187,000</p>
<p>Overall, Swat is more academically focused that Wesleyan (not a knock on Wes, just a trademark of Swarthmore), somewhat more difficult to get into and probably somewhat more difficult academically (on average). Swat probably has a bit less drinking scene. Both are "liberal" politically, but in different ways with Wes having more outwardly visible "radical" trappings (dress, in your face "causes", etc.)</p>
<p>Wes is probably more "artsy", but also with more emphasis on varsity athletics (no football at Swarthmore).</p>
<p>That is a perfect summary. I would really encourage you to visit both of them, for a (partial) weekend visit, if possible. </p>
<p>I think another difference are the living arrangements at Wesleyan, which I believe can be officially themed-based, which differs from Swarthmore. </p>
<p>I found the campuses very different, but have known students over the years at each school who were very happy.</p>
<p>moot, i just arrived at wesleyan, choosing it over swarthmore and other schools. i took a long, careful look at both schools, visited each of them twice, sat in on a number of classes, ate the food, and talked to lots of students and professors, even asking profs if i could look at their syllabi. academically, they're both pretty demanding. i do think they're somewhat similar with the main differences being size and location. swarthmore has a reputation for being really "academic". it churns out tons of future phds. i asked a few professors on both campuses (and especially at swarthmore because i was intrigued by the schools rep for being super-intellectual) what they thought about their students, and their answers were pretty much the same---some are brilliant, some are really hard workers, some are smart but not so serious, but all are intelligent (yes, believe it or not, there are some not so serious students at both schools). as others have suggested, you really should do visits and see which one appeals to you more. also, look into the departments and class offerings that interest you. wes is stronger in the arts, which is part of the reason i chose it.</p>
<p>wesleyan is liberal, but it's not the radical freak show some make it out to be. swarthmore is more focused on academics, but i don't think students there are sitting around discussing the rise of humanism in proto-Renaissance Florence 24 hours a day. i'm not sure the difference in per-student endowment dollars is going to affect me---i saw (and see) beautiful and modern and run-down and weathered buildings on both campuses, and wesleyan gave me a more generous financial aid package (grants vs loans). come visit wes! go visit swarthmore! and see for yourself. both wonderful places.</p>
<p>p.s. i'll reply to your post in the wesleyan thread regarding your questions about wes and amherst tomorrow!</p>
<p>I'm not saying that Swat isn't a formidable institution, but, it's interesting that in spite of its high endowment per student, it finished dead last among its major competitors in the Washington Monthly college ranking (one major aspect of which measured "social mobility"):</p>
<p>The Washington Monthy "social mobility score" is even more of a joke than USNEW's predicted graduation rate. Washington Monthly assigned a predicted graduation rate for each school based on percentage of Pell Grant recipients and then ranked the schools based on how their overall graduation rate compared to this prediction.</p>
<p>By any statistical measure, the two schools have roughly the same socio-economic distribution (a bit surprising given that Swat's median SATs are 40 points higher):</p>
<p>% students receiving need-based aid
Swat: 48%
Wes: 48%</p>
<p>% freshmen receiving need-based aid
Swat: 53%
Wes: 47%</p>
<p>% Pell Grant
Swat: 12%
Wes: 13%</p>
<p>Freshman retention rate:
Swat: 96%
Wes: 95%</p>
<p>6-year graduation rate:
Swat: 91%
West: 92%</p>
<p>
[quote]
i'm not sure the difference in per-student endowment dollars is going to affect me
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The per student endowment directly effects per student spending. Based on their 2004 year-end financial statements, Wesleyan spent $55,000 per student (inc. financial aid). Swarthmore spent $78,967 per student (inc. finanical aid). </p>
<p>Thus, a student paying the same price at each school will actually be getting $24,000 more for their money at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>The difference may actually be somewhat larger for undergrads since 20+% of Wesleyan's students are grad students, typically with higher per student expenditures than for undergrads.</p>
<p>"The difference [in expenditure per student] may actually be somewhat larger for undergrads since 20+% of Wesleyan's students are grad students, typically with higher per student expenditures than for undergrads."</p>
<p>That depends on which side of the ledger you are talking about. Doctoral students typically receive stipends which are in lieu of financial aid; that portion of their "cost" is actually considered an educational benefit that accrues to undergraduates as well the labs which, typically, they run and the equipment made possible by their presence on campus. It's also not clear how much of the two school's educational expenditures include outside funding which, in the hard sciences at least, Wesleyan receives between six and seven times the amount Swarthmore does.</p>
<p>wes has about 190 full-time graduate students. that's about 6.5% of the total student population. the remaining 600 graduate students participate in the graduate liberal studies program which is administered in the evenings and primarily during the summer on a part-time basis. it's open to anyone with a bachelors degree; similar to ucla extension.</p>
<p>$24,000 more for my money? i still don't know how per-student endowment spending directly affects me. i'm not a real athlete, so i won't be taking advantage of the amazing gazillion dollar athletic facilities here at wes. but i am interested in the arts, especially film, so the arts facilities and the center for film studies will definitely get some use from me. and i'll be spending lots of time in the library; both schools have wonderful ones. what matters most (and probably a large part of what moot is interested in) is what happens in the classroom and extracurricular opportunities, and i don't think a figure from a financial statement really captures that. a student who does well at either school, will have the same opportunities available upon graduation. that's the real bottom line.</p>
<p>moot, again, you should look carefully at academic offerings; if one school doesn't have the classes you want, it doesn't matter how much money they spend on you. we students don't need gold-lined moldings in our classrooms; we need good profs and interesting classmates. visit, visit, visit! now, if one school had dorm rooms lined with chocolate, that would be another story! :)</p>
<p>p. s. regarding SAT scores; during my college search, the schools i visited had an SAT point spread of about 60-80 among them. but i couldn't really feel it in the classrooms i visited.</p>
<p>In the interest of accuracy:</p>
<p>If we assume that Wesleyan doesn't spend a dime on the 600 graduate liberal arts students, then the per student spending is about $65,000 (inc. financial aid) compared to $79,000 per student at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>To answer the question about what increased spending buys, one part of the answer is smaller class sizes:</p>
<p>% of classes with fewer than 20 students
Swat: 74%
Wes: 62%</p>
<p>% of classes with 20 - 49 students
Swat: 24%
Wes: 32%</p>
<p>% of classes with 50+ students
Swat: 2%
Wes: 5%</p>
<p>If anyone can point me to the Wesleyan Common Data Set filings, I can provide further breakdowns of class size.</p>
<p>ID - your point about class size would make sense if it were purely a function of Swat having more teachers than Wes. But a student/faculty ratio of 8:1 is not, pedagogically speaking, all that big an advantage over Wesleyan's 9:1 ratio; it certainly wouldn't account for a 20% difference in expenditure per student. I think the real culprit here is simple economy of scale: if you look at the expenditure rates for some of the better research unis (if you can somehow separate out their medical schools) you will find that Wes is somewhere between a lower Ivy and Swat, which is about where you would expect a school of 2,600 to be.</p>
<p>Interestingly, both Swat and Wes are mentioned in today's NYTimes. The online version features a slideshow of various new dormitories:</p>
<p>I'd be curious to know how much Swarthmore spends on construction vs. education per student...</p>
<p>nina, those are questions you'd want to ask when you visit Swarthmore. I don't know if it is available anywhere. But Interesteddad does have information on endowment/student which he's posted somewhere. You could do a search on his posts.</p>
<p>Normally, I would recommend that you get in and then ask such detailed questions when you do have many college choices. Getting into Swarthmore is not a sure thing for anyone. I don't know what your stats are like, so maybe you are way up there and will get in. Sure, it's great you are kicking the tires before you do go and buy a car, but still....</p>
<p>Nina:</p>
<p>The per student spending figures I've given you for Swarthmore ($68,304 not inc. finanicial aid; $78,967 inc. financial aid) come directly from the audited Fiscal Year 2004 financial reports. These figures are annual operating budgets only and do not include large capital spending on capital building projects (although there may be an annual depreciation expense in the operating budgets). These operating budgets include salaries, educational expense, student services expense, campus operating costs (including maintenance), other activities (such as operating the dining hall), and research/public service expense.</p>
<p>The spending on capital projects is a separate financial reporting item.</p>
<p>Since 2001, Swarthmore has completed three major projects:</p>
<p>Science Center ($72.7 million)
New Dorm ($15.2 million)
Renovation of Parrish Hall ($14.1 million)</p>
<p>These projects are being paid for as part of a $230,000 million capital fundraising project with the remainder of the funds going to endowment programs such as faculty chairs, endowed financial aid funding, and general endowment acounts.</p>
<p>You can find links to complete financial reports and budgets for the last five years along with other reports detailing the financial operation of the college here:</p>