I don’t think that is what she meant. But athletes get injured, priorities shift, get burned out, etc…. Swimcloud publishes a stat for average length of career at a school. Schools like CMU and MIT tend to have lower numbers, probably because kids go off and get internships and what not.
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as a ref, do you have the link for that those stats? thanks
Could also be due to the academic rigor at those schools too. It’s difficult to spend 30 hours every week in season (and a certain amount of hours off-season) and keep grades up at these (and certain other) schools. Always good to check rosters, and if there is a noticeable lack of juniors and seniors find out why.
OP’s D should ask coaches what the average weekly commitment is year round, both in and out of season, and confirm that if and when she speaks with potential teammates. This is the most recent NCAA Goals Study, with some average hours spent per sport, average hours of sleep students are getting, etc.
Of course, certain majors don’t lend themselves well to being a varsity athlete, like nursing and education. Other majors might not work well based on coach preferences/edict (I’ve had coaches tell students they can’t be a lab science major and be on their team) or individual student capabilities.
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You can find them in the “how do I fit” page.
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D21 was a recruited swimmer for top D3 programs (futures but no Jr Nat’l cuts) and a top student (National Merit Finalist, 3.98 UW GPA, ‘full IB’, etc).
And while I don’t think the OP will listen to this advice, I will post it anyway to benefit anyone else following this thread since I learned so much as a lurker.
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D3 swimming has gotten crazy, crazy fast, with the increase really accelerating in the last three years since D21 started the recruiting process. Here is the psych sheet for D3 Nationals coming up March 15-19. Look only at the ‘invited’ times (although even the B times are really fast.)
https://www.ncaa.com/_flysystem/public-s3/images/2023/02/23/2023%20NCAA%20DIII%20Women’s%20Psych%20Sheet[34].pdf -
Recruits should email and address the head coach but cc all the assistants. It’s usually the assistants who run the recruiting process, unless the recruit is a particularly big ‘catch’. And yes it’s champ season right now, but If the OP’s daughter isn’t getting responses pretty soon after Nattys are over in 3 wks, then she is targeting the wrong schools. (And without any futures cuts, I’m guessing that she is.)
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Someone asked about academically elite schools without good swim programs. I have a seen several such schools build impressively strong programs just over the last few years. The trend seems to have started with UofChicago, but now Swat for example has built a powerhouse in just the last 3 years. The NESCACs used to dominate the ‘strong D3 athletics + academics’ space, but now the top 50 ranked programs in the county now are highly correlated to the top 50 academic rank lists (other than the Kenyon-Denison-Emory trifecta, of course).
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Swimmers are generally really good students. Swim coaches do NOT need to recruit better students to ‘balance out’ the team GPA due to faster, less academically inclined swimmers. Crazily, NMFs with futures cuts like my daughter are probably a dime a dozen these days.
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NM I answered my own question
Anyone who qualified as an invited swimmer for an individual event gets to swim 2 or 3 other events (I’m not sure exactly since D21 only qualified for a relays) with no minimum cuts. So, that 28.13 50 free entry is probably a breaststroker, amIright? 
OTOH, swimmers who qualified only for relays get to swim their B cuts, but nothing slower that that.
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I just learned about bonus events for NCAA’s. Thank you.
No idea what she swims, but there are many other examples.
Thanks for posting the d3 psych sheet.
I know OP is targeting highly rejective schools, but big picture, even though times are getting faster at all levels, there are still any number of schools where many students would be able to swim, including OP’s D.
Of course, not all schools that might be an athletic fit are a fit academically, financially, etc.
Students are in charge of their recruiting journey and setting their priorities including how important it is that they continue to participate in their sport.
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Absolutely. There is a roster spot for swimmers of many levels at all but the very top D3 programs. I just want families to be educated and realistic about the likelihood of swimming being their kid’s ‘ticket’ to a highly selective school, which seemed to be the OP’s goal.
And I don’t mean to imply that swimmers need to have Nationals-level qualifying times to get recruited. I think someone said else it way back earlier in the thread, but it’s worth repeating:
Hopeful recruits should determine whether their times would score points at their target school’s most recent conference championships: preferably in the A final, but B final times are still ‘recruitable’ as well. (This is easily searchable on SwimCloud for anyone new to the recruiting process.)
If so, proceed with the recruiting process. If not, know that the coach will NOT help in any way with admission (outside of some unusual circumstances --i.e. every breaststroker is graduating and you’re the top breaststroke recruit that year, etc). However, the team may welcome you as a walk-on if you are admitted through the regular admissions process. Just ask. Our experience was that coaches were very honest with us about D21’s prospects at every school she considered.
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@TonyGrace thanks for the link
The coaches’ feedback has been fairly consistent and clear, especially those circulating their tables with 3 distinc columns. The stronger team sheets usually list D3 Championship B Cuts as their “recruit/recruitable times”, whereas some other coaches focus specifically on D24’s fastest times and encourage specific discussion. it’s generally very helpful in re-assessing her target list of schools, where she’ll list them as
- schools where I don’t make the times yet, some by a margin, so will not ED unless there is a very big time improvement
- schools where I make some times but improvement in the coming meets will make a big different difference in securing coach support/priority on coach list
- schools where I make several cuts and/or the coach feedback is very strong, and can reasonably lead to pre-reads. Weaker conferences and/or teams
This process helps her understand that she may not necessarily ED to a school where she is recruited as a swimmer, depending on whether she’s got full support or not. Full support becomes a must for ED vs applying to her favorite school with possible walk-on vs applying to school with double legacy and no possibility to swim
I just read an interview with the Emory coach where he said 75% of the athletes who contact him would never make it through admissions.
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Remember that usually with recruitment the coach requires a quid pro quo: ED commitment from swimmer to offer full support.
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Just to illustrate, I just saw this comment on another group:
"One of the highest performing freshman at my son’s D1 , Power 5 school was a late May walk on. If you’re good enough, it’s never too late."
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D24 is generally focusing on schools where she either makes the division championship T16 times, the coach’s “recruitable” times column, or the coach is actively looking at her PBs. for several schools, that corresponds to the D3 Championship Psych list “invited” times (thanks for circulating). There are also D3 schools where coaches are targeting substantially faster times in their “Recruitable” column, closer to solid/lower D1 grade, which tells one that the coach is successful in actively upgrading his/her team, and D24 most likely won’t be recruited.
In the end, even with the sheets, each coach will form his/her own list of criteria. One coach was straight about his upcoming retirement, so the new coach would effectively make the calls when he/she is selected.
Generally, it’s pretty clear that if D24 improves her times in upcoming meets, those will solidify the coach discussions / pre-read possibilities, and hopefully recruiting.
D3 Championships psych sheets provide a good indication of both the strength of each team, and the reference times to make T16 (target of the fastest schools), or to make the “invited” list.
Is it a reasonable assumption that making several “invited” times would make a swimmer interesting to schools with a weaker team?
Absolutely. Swimmers can swim a max of 3 individual and 4 relay events in college swimming. Anyone with enough versatility to score points in all of those is a very highly sought-after recruit.
And yes, if you’re looking for high academic schools with relatively weaker teams, look at the ‘invited swimmers listed by team’. Some highly selective schools (a few NESCACs etc) have very few qualifiers this year. Even better, you could cross-reference that with a list of highly selective schools and see who’s not even on the NCAA list. Those would be great schools to target.
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as it enters spring of your child’s junior year, has she had any meaningful and ongoing communication with coaches? have any schools mentioned pre reads? in all honesty, those conversations should be happening in the next two-three months if there is a real chance at getting coach support at the schools you are pursuing. most pre read materials are submitted in june and early july so make sure you are doing ongoing honest assessments of level of actual interest and adjust lists accordingly
D24 actively engages in emails, hopefully soon phone/zoom. She tracks the D3 championships psych sheets and at which school she would be able to either participate to NCAA D3 Championships as “invited”, or contribute as T16 in the respective Conference Championships. It may not mean much, but it was a great excitement to find out that 3 swimmers she trained with will participate in the D3 Championship Finals.
No coach has mentioned pre-read but most have either asked for her grades/SAT/school or asked her to fill their recruitment webpage which is roughly seeking the same information.
The cross reference suggestion is very much in the works, along with times, seniority of certain swimmers, all of which provides a better idea of each team/coach’s specific demands. Of course, only the coaches know the composition of their 2023 class intake, and the specific strokes/cuts they demand for 2024 Freshman class.
D24 remains very focused on improving her PBs in upcoming meets, which remains the clearest and most direct way to strengthen her case. She has also been quite direct in asking coaches for the strokes/cuts they seek, when the coaches haven’t already sent her a very transparent list of their aspirations
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Makes sense. My daughter is finding that at high academic schools, transcripts and proof of test scores are commonly in the initial ask. Coaches understandably don’t want to waste their time.
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