Hi- I scoured these threads/asked questions when my kid was going through the recruiting process last year (class of 2023, similar schools, different sport), hoping for the type of certainty that I think you are looking for. I’ve been impressed by how generous people have been in sharing their insights and experiences over the years and I think you have received really great feedback through this thread. I don’t think there is any way to quantify how much of an advantage a recruit has as you describe above. There is likely some advantage but the admissions landscape has dramatically changed for these schools and we really don’t know all that is in play behind the scenes. I would stick to the advice that has been shared repeatedly here- ask for clarity from the coaches and learn to sit with uncertainty. Best of luck to your daughter.
Irrespective of its main, satirical content, that article on NESCACs concludes with this endorsement:
As you say, this depends on the coach, school, sport, year, etc.
So, it’s a mistake to expect a general rule or guideline. This is compounded by the fact that there’s not a common or formal definition across schools of what a tip is.
I can say that your “certainly wouldn’t provide…” statement is definitely wrong in some cases and I would hate for future recruits to take that assumption into a discussion with coaches.
Again, talk to the coaches about the process and don’t expect to be able to generalize from one program to all programs (except perhaps in cases where conference agreements define the meaning of particular terms and/or dictate processes and dates).
If a coach is interested, you can talk with that coach about the particular meaning of support in that context.
All,
It is important to consider my comments in context.
The OP is late in the game and running very short of options.
While academic/athletic/gender fit are certainly important in the college admissions sweepstakes, it is possible that the schools that engender all these qualities perfectly, may not be interested in the OP’s swimmer.
At this point in the college search process, I am merely suggesting a little outside the box thinking (think a broader universe of schools) is required so unrecoverable disappointment is not experienced a year from now.
What is the harm in putting in an application at Barnard or Wellesley incase there are no other acceptances?
While I am a few years past sheparding my kids thru this process horrible, I still am the chair of an Ivy alumni interviewing committee and see how hard it is for the most qualified of kids to get into elite programs.
The OP isn’t doing everything he should and continues to look for steadfast recruitment rules where only loose guidelines exist.
It is like watching a fat person skating on thin ice…and spring is coming…
Here is my take, using my experience with my daugher’s (2023) recruiting process. Coaches will be pretty upfront with regards to level of support, you will have no doubt when a coach truly wants you and is fully supporting your application - they will help connect you with admissions counselors to clarify the application process and check in along the way.
If a coach is not providing full support most are very honest about it, but it is often hard to hear and comprehend if this is a top choice school. I would not let my daugher ED to a school without confirmation of full support and a positive pre read letter. That was a firm standard we set early in the process, along with our price point.
If a coach is offering soft support then I would consider that the same as applying without it, and not count on being given any great admissions chances then a non athlete. Then if you get in, be pleasantly surprised.
Finally, any athlete without an athletic scholarship - so any of the schools you are discussing here, is a walk on. There is no money related to a committment to participate in college athletics. So support or not, it is still a walk on and once admitted the student could choose to not play and nothing in their acceptance or scholarship packages would change - they can walk on and walk off at their choosing.
That being said, you can certainly clarify if they have a roster spot and what role the coach sees the athlete playing. If you are being offered a preread and are being supported in admissions your coach will be very upfront with your role.
At this point if you are still reading smoke signals, then I would suggest to continue your search and not really count on those schools supporting your application, but continue communication - just don’t fall in love with any of those schools.
the harm is that #1 the OPs child isn’t fast enough to swim at Barnard so that removes that school and #2 the child doesn’t want to attend Wellesley. So there is no point in applying. Simple enough, not every school is a fit for every child. My own daughter passed on much high “ranked” schools when she committed late this summer because the right fit matters and only the child and their family can determine that.
OP has repeatedly stated that their D is not interested in Barnard or Wellesley, and that their school limits them to 10 apps (where UCs =1). Further they have several safety/highly likely schools including McGill and Toronto (both prestigious), so there’s not a scenario where there are no acceptances.
It sounds to me like the D is doing all the right things. The recruiting for class of 2024 is from from over.
@superfomestique the discussion seems to stray away from the headline of this thread, which is how to get recruited as a swimming athlete into a top academic university, either in the US or Canada. By recruited, we mean selected with full coach support, passing pre-read, and applying ED with a close to guaranteed admission.
D24’s individual case and swimming ability clearly point to Ivy/D3 schools where she can hope to qualify. In the case of Ivies, the list would be strictly limited to the bottom 2 teams, namely Cornell and Dartmouth, and even those are currently a stretch. In D3, potential schools encompass several conference, including NESCAC, UAA, SCIAC, Centennial etc.
Should D24 fail to secure full coach support (and we estimate her current probability of securing 1+ is approximately 70%), she will indeed fully reevaluate her list of schools as a normal applicant, subject to a limit of 10 schools enforced by her high school (with all UC applications together accounting for 1 out of 10), which will then consist of schools from her initial target list of swim schools, and include others selected purely for academic fit.
please, let’s all focus the thread discussion on the topic of swimming recruit/strong academic school
My daughter is in the process now of deciding where she will go to school and swim next year. We did not let her apply ED anywhere. The NESCAC coaches were very clear on who would give her full support if she applied ED as well as how much support they would give her if she applied RD. She also was later starting the recruiting process. Also, your daughter may have a very good chance of walking on at Dartmouth. When we talked with the assistant coach this summer we were told that for the men’s team they had a max number for the team, but only a minimum number for what they could have on the women’s.
Can’t recall if you looked at U of British Columbia as an option. I saw McGill and Toronto mentioned but if you want a West Coast school with a milder climate UBC might be worth a look. I don’t know anything about their swim program but it’s a strong school that gets overlooked sometimes.
Yep, the more females they can get to walk on(in the sports it makes sense like swimming) the more assured they are of meeting Title IX requirements. That doesn’t mean that the walk-ons would ever see playing time/meet participation.
I have a kid who is quite happy to be an excellent workout buddy to her teammates and not see playing time, but don’t think it’s quite like that with swimming.
Even the fastest teams have some form of competition opportunity for slower swimmers, even if it’s only a home invitational. Sometimes swimmers of the same team with travel to different meets.
The limitation is, in fact, speed. A walk on, at a minimum, needs to be able to keep up with the practice intervals of a particular team.
UBC wasn’t overlooked, but their swimming program is also too fast for D24, in fact it’s the National Women’s Champion for almost the past 10 years
would be great to learn any information you have about the difference in process across schools, the particular focus/strokes/times certain teams are looking for, number of spots vs tips, the difference in support between applying ED & RD at the same school, and in particular the intricacies of applying as an athlete in the ED2/RD round with previous full support. Of course, in this chat, we’d also be surprised she didn’t take an offer of full coach support ED, which is exactly what D24 is seeking. feel free to PM.
everyone’s clear recommendation to keep talking to coaches, and athletes are often able to draw clear answers from coaches. Many coaches are both efficient and organised in their communications, particularly those who have clear one pager about what the stroke & times they are seeking at that point in time, some with clear target times for slots, tips, and walk-ons.
Other coaches are more subdued in their answers, generally pointing to “continue improving your times”, or “accelerate in particular events”, whilst avoiding clearer observations such as
- what times would make a you a clear recruit for our team
- where the recruit would currently rank on his/her list of current recruits
When faced with this situation, should D24 keep asking the same question, maybe in a slightly different way, to finally get to an answer? or does it mean the coach is politely telling her that she’s not a top2-3 recruit for him at this point?
This
D24 assumed so, but a coach call this week was puzzling because her team rankings would have been #5/#1/#2/#2/#9/#1 on the current roster (including one Fall 2023 Freshman recruit), which in our book would have positioned her as a clear recruit, notwithstanding the fact that the coach confirmed her grades would pass pre-read, and encouraged her to visit this summer. wouldn’t that be a case for “keep asking him”? The only other possible answer would be that we recruited an amazing class of 2023… but D24 is faster than the 2023 freshman who declared, and even if the other two 2023 freshmen are faster in every event, that would in the we worst case make her rankings #7/#3/#4/#4/#11/#3… of course, that may well be the “unlucky” case
Every coach has a different style. Since I don’t know the coach in question, it’s hard to say.
When the coach says “continue improving your times”, I think a follow up question asking what times to target is valid. But asking where they rank on the recruiting list at this moment in time is a pointless question, since she is clearly not 1-3.
D24 did ask what specific times she should target at several upcoming meets. but found “we want swimmers that keep improving, you’re on a very strong curve, especially because you can swim all relay events 4x100F, 4x200F, 4x100IM, 4x200IM” to be both accurate and vague.
in any case, we will keep asking, because it’s difficult to navigate in the vagueness of “keep improving”
I’m wondering how much she’s being impacted by her not swimming SCYs. I understand you’re using “official” converted times, but perhaps some coaches have a bias on how accurate those conversions are for any given swimmer. I know my son’s LCM 50 free was a total outlier for him. Some of these coaches just might not want to take a risk on an international swimmer to begin with unless they’re hitting much faster times (I know my son’s team had a few international recruits), but they’d qualified and swam in a lot of the big US national meets during high school. Good luck to her!