College admissions were a simpler time then!
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The value of higher education is completely personal to each family and I respect however you decide what you are willing to spend.
I am assuming you can be a bit more confident in your assertions about admissions because it seems the Canadian schools look likely for acceptance AND that your daughter would be happy going there with or without swimming. I hope this is the case. However, I think your comment above about having an understanding about being rejected shows exactly that you are not fully aware of what is going on in admissions. Many comments on this post have been offered as nuggets of wisdom on this complex and dynamic process and it may be helpful to reread.
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Actually, suggestions have already been offered.
I have been reading your thread with great interest and wish your daughter well in her college process.
I do not pretend to have college admissions expertise, but I do have some familiarity with the process that you are going through since I have a child who was a recruited athlete at a highly selective school.
Here are my thoughts which are soley meant to be helpful to you and your daughter
- International applicants have a more difficult process than US applicants
- Athletes are highly coveted by highly selective schools ONLY if they are recruited to play by one of their varsity teams. Many of the schools on your list already have a substantial athlete demographic because they have so many varsity teams. They do not need to bring or probably do not want to bring in more “athletes” outside of their own recruits.
A typical prospective athletic recruit focuses most of her time outside of school on her sport. This limits her ability to do anything else well. Consequently, the athlete is essentially a one-trick pony. Meanwhile, successful competitors for the same coveted admissions slots as your daughter have spent their time successfully completing their own incredible projects and winning accolades for their efforts. They have well-crafted, compelling applications. An unsuccessful athletic recruit will have in comparison nothing to offer. She will have essentially put all of her eggs in one basket-sports. In my part of the country, it is uncommon for HS applicants to receive acceptances from highly selective universities as either athletes or non-athletes. In my experience, it is unheard of for a failed prospective athlete (active sports recruiting into senior year) to secure admission to a highly selective university without the recruiting advantage.
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One thing I have wondered about is how competitive a potential recruit would be as a regular applicant at these types of schools.
If a significant amount of time is spent on the sport at the expense of other activities and the student is NOT recruited, then how is the sport viewed by admissions? And how would this student compare with others whose activities reflect a high level of pexcellence?
@NiVo I notice the two lists do not have much overlap. Is your daughter considering what it may be like if she does end up getting recruited and not participating in her sport?
This is not the case in my experience.
This is also inaccurate.
For athletes who are not recruited athletes, their athletic participation is treated as an EC. Non-recruited athletes are valued by many colleges because athletes tend to be resilient, and often have other desirable skills: teamwork, communication, perseverance, goal orientation, ability to deal with loss/failure, strong work ethic etc. Many also have leadership skills.
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In our area, varsity athletes, captains of multiple sports, who are top 5-10% of their class are routinely rejected from a lot of highly selective schools.
Yes, playing varsity sports as an extracurricular activity is looked at favorably. But only playing sports and having great grades in HS is usually insufficient to gain acceptances at many of the OP’s listed schools unless you have a different hook.
Of course, your experience may be completely different.
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What I was reacting to was you said it was ‘unheard’ of for a non-recruited athlete (which you termed ‘failed’) to be admitted to a highly rejective school. Obviously that’s not the case when you look at how many walk-on athletes some of the highly rejective schools have (many of whom had prior athletic experience). Of course it is true that not having a hook means one has a relatively lower chance of admission.
Non-recruited athletes aren’t ‘one-trick ponies’, and many of them create ‘well-crafted and compelling’ applications, which you suggest they can’t and hence have ‘nothing to offer’, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
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If non-athletes are not getting accepted, how do you know the athletes are getting rejected because they don’t have other ECs and not just because the schools are, as you said, highly rejective?
I am not arguing - just trying to understand the logic. Also, where is your area of the country?
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I am only speaking from our experience.
I am specifically referring to certain schools
on the OP’s list.
From the time my child was in middle school, the chosen sport became a 2nd job. There was year round training, in-season practices, tournaments, and showcases, as well as our-of-season practice, tournaments and showcases. A lot of time was also spent trying to get in front of the right coaches and to get noticed. This did not end until my child was finally committed. As a result, there was a huge opportunity cost trying to become a recruited athlete that prevented effective diversification.
Just from the OP’s posted comments I imagine the OP may feel the same way.
BTW: I believe that at least some of the schools in the OP’s list do not consider walk-on athletes in my child’s sport. I know my child’s school doesn’t. Everybody on the team is a recruited athlete. There are no walk-on tryouts.
YMMV.
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My impression is that it is reasonably common in swimming if the swimmer is fast enough. I know a few kids who were not able to walk on but generally it was because they were told “if you achieve X time” and ultimately couldn’t.
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whilst we do not always fully agree with all your collective views, this thread also illustrates that we value everyone’s input, have read it carefully, benefited enormously from it in our approach and strategy towards D24’s recruiting, and are very thankful. In many ways, her current discussions are the reflection of that. We started late in this journey, and are still attempting to catch up with this last minute train.
@BUMD whilst we agree that swimming and working on recruiting is very much a second job for D24, it has also enabled her to participate in many ECs that she holds dear.
- she’s led her swim team to raise over $20,000 in each of the past two years to support the Dow Syndrome swim team’s participation to international championships
- ran 100km with a group of classmates to raise over $20,000 towards an NGO supporting single moms who decide to seek adoption for their child
- taught swimming to low income women as part of an NGO promoting swimming and health
- leads a junior group who coach Phys Ed in weekly lessons to low income families kids
Whilst these activities may not carry the same weight that awards or academic acheminements other high schoolers have, they represent her values, who she is and what she can contribute to a community. It may not impress every AO, but hopefully some will care about having this kind of person onboard.
Several coaches have confirmed she would have a walk-on spot if admitted, in fact some schools include walk-on cuts in their target timer lists (including John Hopkins, Chicago, Toronto). Of course, she wouldn’t be able to walk onto D1 teams on her non-recruit list.
@JLDDCC In a way, D24 is understanding rejection every week as we speak, since many coaches have turned her down for zoom calls/recruiting no later than last week. However, she remains steadfast and confident in achieving admission in Canada, would be happy to go there with or without swimming, and believes that her non-recruit list of target schools should be composed of schools she may potentially prefer to attend over Canada, rather than add more US safety schools because she absolutely must gain admission into a US school. an easy reflection would be to look at global university ranking as a reference, where Toronto and McGill rank 18th and 46th respectively. Also bear in mind that attending any university in the Top100 makes her eligible to apply for a $40k annual scholarship provided by our government
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You are talking about rejection by coaches. This is different than rejection by admissions which is what I was referring to.
If Canada looks like a lock and your daughter is happy with that choice then that is great.
For clarity, using the term “target” on these forums means having a reasonable chance at admissions rather than aiming for admissions and “safety” means being almost certain in getting admitted.
For a recruit, rejection by a coach for a slot means rejection by admissions
You mean athletes do not or can not gain admissions on their own merit?
We all certainly understand the aspect of getting support, a Likely Letter, Slot, etc. at a highly selective school, however not every admitted student is a recruited athlete. Even at the highly selective schools, students do get admitted without slot, and depending on the school, sport, And athlete, they very well may be welcome on the team by the coaching staff.
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Ouch. This is incorrect.
Rejection by a coach means no spot on a team. That’s all it means. If you have the academic chops, the application is considered by the admissions office the same as any other application.
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Isn’t it a two-step process? The recruit has to be admitted before they can play for the team (or, be rejected by the team, for that matter.) I think that’s what the OP is saying.
It is two steps but each step is made up of many hurdles and stepping stones and your order is incorrect. If a prospective student athlete wants to play at a specific school they have to be both recruited by that coach and accepted to the school. In 99.9% of the cases you can’t play varsity college sports without both. In a very small percentage, in a handful of sports, and at a handful of schools a student could be accepted to the school and then without any contact with the coach, show up on campus and ask for a tryout and get offered a walk-on position but that is highly unlikely as the vast majority of walk ons (especially at the schools the OPnis considering) are recruited athletes as well.
If a coach rejects you during recruiting (doesn’t see you as a fit for the team) or the school rejects you during admissions you aren’t going the be a student athlete at that institution. You may be able to be accepted and be a student or find another coach at another school that wants you and be a varsity athlete but not at that original school.
Now where the the OP is flawed is the idea that not being offered coach support means you are rejected. This comment makes me think that the OPs daughter does not have the academic strength necessary to be admitted without support but often times a coach will tell a recruit that although they can’t support the application, they would love to offer the athlete a spot on the team - my daughter had this type of offer at two ivies and three d3 schools on the OPs list. The student athletes is neither rejected from the school at that point or removed from the potential of being a varsity athlete. I would venture to say that nearly half the recruiting class at some highly selective schools are filled in this manner
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The OPs statement is worrisome to me on how it could be interrupted by other parents new to this process and I think it is important to clarify that not being offered coach support does not equal rejection by the coach either. As I am sure you are aware, Often times a coach has limited applications they can support so they will tell athletes that they see being a fit for their team that if they can get in then they would love to have them on the team. We see this happening semi frequently for players who are late to the process because the coach already offered support to their top group. My daughter had this offer at a handful of schools, both d1 and d3.
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“Also bear in mind that attending any university in the Top100 makes her eligible to apply for a $40k annual scholarship provided by our government”
Top 100 on what list? This is the first I have seen you mention this and can provide clarity for many of us as to why you are so obsessed with rankings. There are many lists that rank institutions. If a school falls out of the top 100 while your daughter is in attendance will she lose the grant? By providing the list referenced by your government then maybe those here that are more knowledgeable with regards to swimming could help you.
Honest question - are you concerned about your daughter’s ability to be accepted to a school on this list without coach support? Are you dependent on the 40,000 grant in order for your daughter to be able to attend a US school? Your answers to these questions can help frame the support and guidance you may receive from the knowledgeable posters here
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