Yes. And for many universities, an applicant studying in a foreign secondary school is required to submit
This is starting to get (with apologies to Groucho Marx) “I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members” vibes.
My suggestion a few days ago was more broad to find programs where varsity swimming is a possibility, Whether it leads to recruiting interest or to a walk-on slot; the final results would be the same: a position on a varsity team at a school with excellent academics.
Contacting other programs now could lead to actual recruitment (and a push to commit via ED). But the potential recruit could also decide to try to push a commitment off to the RD round and still might get coach support there depending on their talent level vs the team needs. They could also at least have a good idea sooner rather than later of which programs would potentially have a walk-on slot available as a way to figure out the RD list.
You had mentioned recently seeing first-hand how fast the recruiting process can move with a teammate when there is the right match between the swimmer’s level and a swim coach’s program needs. That’s a possibility for you daughter still if she targets the right programs.
Right now it appears that there is maybe one program that has recruiting interest. And there are a couple of long shots—presumably NESCAC schools—that you are waiting to hear back from regarding pre-read lists. A lot of schools were visited that didn’t have recruiting interest or walk-on possibilities down the line. This seems to be because there wasn’t a realistic assessment of the potential recruit’s level vs the level of swim programs targeted.
It looks like that at this point her swim times are her swim times, and spending limited time this summer trying to get last-minute improvements to try to drum up support from programs that had lukewarm interest at best, could have been spent contacting or even traveling to schools that are/would be more interested. I don’t know why it would be that now her “time is better spent on swimming” instead of that.
As a parent you could provide guidance to try to recalibrate and refocus efforts to reach the goal.
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I think @YoLo2 just nailed this entire thread.
But apparently I have to edit this because it has been flagged.
OP previously said “anything other than varsity swimming is a failure”, yet refuses to look at many varsity swim programs that could welcome D24. Hence the Groucho Marx reference, which seems a propos.
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@YoLo2 's post is spot on. What ECs is she doing over the summer in the US while visiting schools, swimming in Palo Alto, and traveling to Florida for a multi day swim meet? And essays? Yes she would work on the common app essay but my guess she could squeeze in sending a few emails. Essays could be cut down pretty significantly if she got an acceptable swim offer.
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After almost 1700 posts, I fear the OP still thinks decent grades and being full pay means something. That is so 1980s.
Perhaps it is not being in the US, but the lack of willingness to listen to people who have successfully navigated the process is frustrating. Perhaps tales of crushing disappointments of great students who didn’t get in anywhere, or unhappy students who went where their parents wanted them to go would be more effective in providing helpful perspective/clues to the OP. Every year, there are many more of these stories than there are of successful athletic recruitment, so there may be strength in numbers.
The OP seems to be so sure his narrow approach to college admissions is the right one, I wonder if there might be something he is not sharing. Obviously if the family is a development case, he could be right to have such a narrow focus and we are all wrong to spend so much time trying to be helpful. It would be good to have all the information.
Currently, the OP is behaving like someone who thinks they are way more attractive than they actually are the week before a school dance…
I agree with those who say there is not much to be gained with any more swimming, and feel valuable time has been wasted “chasing parked cars”. A good swimmer with above average grades and scores may not be Ivy or NESCAC material, however there is still time to contact other academically elite schools with slower swimming programs…that may be the only ship that has not yet sailed.
Again, I am trying to tell to OP that athletic recruitment is the last bastion of meritocracy in US college admissions, and unhooked applications are a total crapshoot. Being Asian, affluent, and from private school are not the characteristics that elite colleges/universities are looking for these days. It is worth noting, I share all these attributes with the OP, and without athletic recruitment, my kids (2 of 3) would not have been admitted to the schools they attended.
FWIW, I interview HS seniors for both my alma maters (one NESCAC and one Ivy), so I see top HS kids every year and am always surprised with who gets in and who doesn’t.
You need to love the school that loves your kid.
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Sports like swimming and track have the benefit of being simpler in that they are mostly individual & time based, so both the top-mid-bottom tier athletes are recruited based on very similar parameters.
D24 chose her list of swim schools objectively based on her academics aspirations and her swim times. As her journey progressed and she learned from teammates, parents, coaches, and indirectly CC, coaches/teams were dropped because they were too fast, didn’t have walk-on opportunities, or the vibe/fitness didn’t work.
CC has been invaluable and extremely useful in her journey since we didn’t know anything about the recruiting process. It also included conflicting information, with on one hand repeated advice that the coaches know their respective recruiting process the best and remain the most direct source of information (when available), and on the other hand posters who represent that even though she’s invited for pre-reads, her chances of being recruited are about nil.
D24 is a young but also the main point of contact with coaches. Her assessment is that she hopes to receive coach support at 1-3 swimming programs on her list. That maybe her youthful hope, but her assessment has been open and fair, and she will have lot more clarity upon completion of pre-reads in the coming days. The coach(es) who truly love her case will stand out.
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If “Sports like swimming and track have the benefit of being simpler in that they are mostly individual & time based”, how is it that the OP’s kid picked the list of swim schools knowing what her times are?
If she really did pick the schools, perhaps a reality check from the parent is in order? Isn’t it the parent’s job to set their children up for success, or at the very least prevent them from crushing (but preventable) failure? The only thing leaving all the strategy/decisions to his first child does for the OP will be the hard lessons learned for the benefit of his second child…
Given her times, and the posted recruitment times for all the schools on the OP’s list, shouldn’t the list have been “currated” months ago? What about schools where her times would be welcomed? Are all of them for dummies?
The D24 IS young, but she has a parent who has been getting expert/experienced advice for 8 MONTHS and the OP still doesn’t get, or won’t explain to his daughter that the preread means nothing without first getting the coaches support. I am not sure which one is on the spectrum, however if it is the kid who is casting too narrow a net, it is the parent’s duty/responsibility to relieve her of assumptions that may prevent her from a favorable outcome.
If all the school attributes the OP says are important to his daughter; varsity swimming, academic rigor, specific major, name recognition/prestige, this family has not even scratched the surface of schools that meet their needs AND are realistic given her stats/athletic abilities. I find it hard to believe that the OP claims to come to the process not knowing anything, yet 1700 posts later, he still thinks a preread is a meaningful milestone.
I know the OP says that the Canadian schools are acceptable safeties, however, given that you have the time, wouldn’t investigating some US based safeties that include varsity swimming be worthwhile given the risks of unhooked admissions in the US?
While the OP has suggested the advice on CC has been conflicting, I would venture to guess that most of us who are still here are in agreement on how well the OP is maximizing his time and options.
I would encourage all audience members to weigh in for the benefit of the OP’s kid. Youthful hope may not be enough and time is running out.
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Well, to be fair, in my son’s sport, which is not swimming, getting a preread does mean something, and offers (if that’s what you mean by coach support) are made after the prereads.
I think I said about 200 posts ago “whatever will happen will happen” at this point. The OP has certainly gotten repeated advice; it’s up to him whether he wants to take it or not.
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It was clear at the point OP was discussing pre-reads that it was not the formal step of the process that we refer to.
But I agree that a formal pre-read request can be meaningful - and it’s pretty clear when that is the case.
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Although I still remember from 1000 posts ago that they didn’t look at Harvard because that was being saved for younger sibling. Sigh.
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Unfortunately the idiom “beating a dead horse” comes to mind.
I do sincerely hope that the OP provides an update as to where his daughter ends up. I for one, wish her the best and hope she lands somewhere where she is happy.
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Two somewhat-unrelated topics.
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For the poor beleaguered swim parent who reads all the way here: is it normal for a swimmer to have nine “formal pre-reads”? In my daughter’s sport, pre-reads happen when both sides are reasonably serious about each other: it doesn’t mean a commitment is certain from either side, but it’s real work for the coach and a real ask for the AO, and it’s not going to happen unless it seems somewhat likely. One, two, three formal pre-reads, that seems normal-ish. There aren’t nine somewhat likelies in our sport, and especially if the athlete hasn’t met the posted times, I don’t really get it. But maybe I’m wrong! Is it normal?
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An observation: whenever this thread goes quiet for a couple of days, OP tends to return with a post that generally summarizes the current situation, is combative and/or overly confident with incorrect information, doesn’t add any new data about the athlete, and consistently sets off another set of frustrated responses. (I was watching to see if this happened this time, and it did.) I don’t find this “friendly,” but even if it isn’t a deliberate provocation, it’s having the effect of one. This thread might be more helpful in the future if we avoid engaging until there is something new to engage on.
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I 100% agree about the pre reads.
In my daughters case, soccer GK, she cast a very wide net for a variety of reasons and did get submitted for a large number of pre reads (I think around 10).Not all high academic (between 10% and 40% admit rates), both d1 and d3 schools.
However, prior to being asked to submit it was made clear where she stood with regards to the 2027 recruiting class at that school and at all but two schools she was given an offer when pre read results were shared. Schools typically only recruit 1-2 players at her position and at the two she didn’t get an offer she was told she was the #2 and they were only taking 1.
Lots of coaches asked for academics fairly early on as a screener, but the formal pre read process is intensive, slots are limited, and in soccer at least it was a significant step that was not offered to a large number of recruits.
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My recollection is that my son (track/XC) spoke face to face with maybe 12 coaches, had 6 official pre-reads, went on 3 OVs, and was offered 3 slots. At that point, there was a limit of 5 D1 OVs, but they would occur during XC season and son didn’t want to miss that many weekends of the season.
He was fortunate to have his times in the recruiting range of his top choices, as well as to have three schools that would be safe, but good, in terms of finances, academics, athletics and overall fit. These didn’t seem to have a formal pre-read process. As a result, his situation allowed him to keep his list fairly tight throughout, but still have a safety net.
Given my son’s numbers and his situation, I don’t think 9 pre-reads is outrageous for someone whose list is more “reachy.”
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D24 passed pre-reads at 2 schools where she would score for the team+ 1 that is likely too fast for her in her assessment.
The NESCAC pre-reads results will be released in the coming days, and include teams where she would be contributory + teams where she’s in the mid-low tier in her assessment. Some only require grades and reports, others require more detailed writing. Vibe varies from coach to coach, ranging from “Is xx the right school for you?”, “Athletes are required to apply ED”, or “let’s talk after the Pre-Read results come back”. She knows nothing is decided, but has her own assessment of which conversations are more encouraging than others. Time Will tell how correct her progressive assessment is.
Unfortunately, OVs will be difficult to attend for D24 though her teammate has already planned a trip because she is recruited at some schools she hasn’t visited. However, some coaches organize calls for those who passed pre-reads to connect with potential future teammates, so she very much hopes to be invited.
Whilst the process is very different, it’s not completely dissimilar to applying to college RD and hoping to get positive responses from a range of schools, from the top choice(s) to the safety.
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As others have stated, pre-read results typically come back with an offer from the coach, or a statement about where the potential recruit stands in the coach’s priorities and what the timeline is. This doesn’t seem to be the case in these. It’s also unclear whether any of these schools made the visit list.
ETA: what sort of assessment was done to target swim programs? Based on best times this year, your daughter’s fastest relative event time (converted) would be 17th best on the roster at Tufts for this past season, yet time was spent setting up a meeting with the coach and visiting to inquire about walk-on possibilities. That doesn’t seems like a very realistic or “objective” process.
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D24 only has converted SCY times since all her PBs are swum in meter pools. Her times and swim list is on cc and have not changed.
Amherst / Bowdoin / Claremont / Colby / Grinnell / Franklin and Marshall / McGill / Pomona / Wesleyan. She’s thinks she’s not fast enough to get recruited at at least 3-5 schools on her list.
so I’m confused here and maybe the experts can help me.
What is considered passing a pre-read? I was under the impression that it is a “your kid is in the range of stats, no guarantee of admission, but they are in the game”. Not passing a pre-read means that your kid is outside the range and admission is unlikely. But passing a pre-read doesn’t mean anything more than “in the range”.
I’ve also seen “likely” letters - which are a positive review by admissions. Not guarantee, but certainly a much higher percentage than a passed pre-read. And I’ve gotten the impression that ‘likely’ letters are also an indication that the coach will be offering you support through the process. Are likely letters from NESCAC schools or a different process entirely?
How many “coach support” positions are there in a given NESCAC school? I didn’t think there were 8-10, but more like less than 5.
I was under the impression that a coach will usually fill out its roster by recruiting a few rock stars and then the rest essentially get in by themselves and the coach is happy to take them?
maybe clarifying terminology will be helpful for me and the rest of us. We are all working with assumptions and you know what that means.
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NESCAC schools do NOT issue likely letters, they are expressly forbidden to. Relatively few D3 schools issue LLs and the majority of those do so only after the student applies (like at the Ivies).
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Based on what I know about these teams, I would estimate that Grinnell and Franklin and Marshall are the only schools on this list that would offer coach support for recruitment.
Bowdoin is realistic for walk-on because that coach is notorious for saying “Love to have you if you get in” without offering support; your daughter academically could do just that.
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