T-10 Law Degree to Wall Street?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>Hello everyone!</p>

<p>First of all, I want to thank all of the contributors here for all the insightful posts. Thank you! </p>

<p>I am a soon to graduate economics major. I am interested in investment banking, although it is absolutely clear that I will not be able to compete for such jobs given my credentials. A top MBA certainly will do, but with the dismal economy, I feel pessimistic about being able to get a job that will get me the experience necessary to gain admission top business schools. I know I won't be taking the GMAT anytime soon, but the LSAT could be a different story.</p>

<p>A law degree "seems" like the next best option to enter a lucrative career. Actually, I feel like it is the "only" option for someone coming from a huble background, since I did not attend a highly ranked school and therefore less likely to secure jobs that appeal to top business schools. The current state of the U.S. economy doesn't help either. There appears to be a number of lawyers in the spotlight who transition to investment banking and the like, with Robert Rubin being a prime example. I like to think that by going to a top 10 law school, perform well, join a big NYC firm, work in securities law for a few years, and "then" transition to investment banking. But I have to wonder, am I being realistic? </p>

<p>Please, feel free to share your thoughts, ideas, and comments. Thank you so much.</p>

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<p>There are many lawyers at top law firms who are offered jobs at investment banks after working at those top law firms for several years (typically, four years at a minimum). However, the jobs at investment banks range from traditional investment banking and investment management positions to working as an attorney in either the law department or in alternative areas (such as "Special Execution" or "SpecialEx" at Goldman Sachs). You will never be guaranteed a job at an investment bank, and a lot of pieces have to fall into place for you to arrive at a place where you would even be considered for those kinds of jobs. </p>

<p>First, you must go to a law school that will enable you to get a job at a very top law firm, usually in NYC (I'm thinking a Cravath, S&C, Wachtell, Simpson Thacher, Davis Polk level law firm -- very prestigious). Then, you must work your butt off and survive for several years at your law firm, impressing your peers and your clients along the way. During these years, you will likely have to practice in an area that lends itself to working later in an investment bank - such as M&A, securities, investment management (40 Act), private equity, tax, financial institutions (FIG) or maybe even project finance -- though these are also typically areas with the craziest and most unpredictable of long hours (all nighters at the printer to price a securities deal, all weekend negotiating a public takeover that will be announced before the market opens on a Monday (e.g. Bear Sterns/JP Morgan), running changes all night on a prospectus for a new investment fund, reviewing the tax provisions in a new credit facility, etc.). Finally, you have to hope that the right recruiter calls you with that perfect job at an investment bank (where you will compete with many other similarly credentialed individuals for that job) or a client offers you a job. </p>

<p>In other words, I wouldn't assume that law is a career path that will definitely lead you to opportunities in investment banking, though it is certainly possible.</p>

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<p>Sally, this forum is very fortunate to have a member like you. Thank you so much.</p>

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<p>Are you interested in a client-facing (front-office) role within the Ibank or in joining their in-house team (i.e. not a client facing role per se- i.e. you are not a 'business division' bringing in the big buck for the firm) I think it is almost impossible to join a client-facing role from a law firm (this is where u can make the most money) but it is entirely possible to join as counsel (you can also make good money..though remember ur not generating any big deals) unless you first had some undergrad experience in finance. You may want to look into SEO (sponsors for educational opportunity) I am a 'minority' from a 'humble' background..i go to a top 5 liberal arts undergrad but with no finance course offerings and no bulge brackets recruiting on campus I had almost no chance of getting recruited to a Wall Street firm. But, I participated in the SEO internship program and interned with Lehman Brothers last summer as a sophomore in their IB division...Also..if you are currently a rising senior still thinking of law school, SEO has a corporate law internship program where they place graduating seniors who have secured a place at a law school at top corporate law firms for paid internships during the summer prior to your first year of law school. Good luck!</p>

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<p>
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There are many lawyers at top law firms who are offered jobs at investment banks after working at those top law firms for several years (typically, four years at a minimum).

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<p>I think it should also be pointed out that there are indeed some people who got Ibanking jobs right after law school, and hence never have to work as lawyers (heck, they never even have to pass the Bar). In fact, my former roommate's brother , who went to Michigan Law, got an Ibanking offer from JP Morgan in his 3L. Along the same vein, there certainly seemed to quite a few Ibanking recruiters camped out at HLS (or at least there were last year, maybe they're not there anymore now that the market is sour).</p>

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<p>Sakky makes a good point, and opportunities in investment banking, consulting, etc. do exist at some of the top law schools (I know that it does at at least Harvard, Columbia, Penn and NYU).</p>

<p>One thing to remember is that if a law school graduate does not practice law for at least some time immediately following law school, the opportunity to practice law is most likely lost, as finding a job as a first year associate at a firm after working for several years on another path will be difficult, if not impossible. For me, after graduating with a JD/MBA, it made a lot of sense to practice law for at least some period of time so that I would always be a lawyer who perhaps chose to do something else. </p>

<p>Years later, I am still a practicing lawyer.</p>

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<p>Being an investment banker is not for everybody. Your life becomes the job. Simply being a lawyer does not qualify you to be an investment banker. Most investment banks who take law students only take the very top students. The same is true for MBA students -- only the top students make it into investment banking. I don't think it matters whether you graduate with a law degree or an MBA as long as you can demonstrate brilliance.</p>

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<p>
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Being an investment banker is not for everybody. Your life becomes the job

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<p>Well, the same can be said for Big-Time law. Sallyawp and others have written many a post detailing the grind of being an associate at a major law firm. </p>

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[quote]
Most investment banks who take law students only take the very top students. The same is true for MBA students -- only the top students make it into investment banking. I don't think it matters whether you graduate with a law degree or an MBA as long as you can demonstrate brilliance.

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<p>Well, I don't know about that, particularly now that you've invoked the MBA's. Trust me, I've seen a lot of the MBA's that get hired by Ibanks, and many of them, frankly, aren't that good, relative to other MBA's who didn't get hired. In fact, I can think of a significant fraction who spent their MBA years doing little more than just partying, drinking, and barely passing their classes. Of course, going to an MBA program that refuses to disclose grades to employers (as many of the top MBA programs won't) helps immensely.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I know quite a few former MBA students who decided to stay in school to get their doctorates because they wanted to become business school professors, but couldn't get Ibanking offers. In fact, one guy in particular, who got into the finance doctoral programs at Harvard Business School and the MIT Sloan School of Management, and is almost certain to be placed in the tenure-track of the faculty of a top finance department, ironically didn't get a single Ibanking job offer when he was an MBA student. He was laughing at the situation, saying that soon he will be teaching MBA students who will be getting Ibanking offers when he couldn't even get one of those offers himself.</p>

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<p>
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Well, the same can be said for Big-Time law.

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Big law isn't for everybody as well. The transition from law school to a law firm, however, isn't as great as the transition from law school to ibanking, which is a field for which they don't offer classes in most law schools. </p>

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He was laughing at the situation, saying that soon he will be teaching MBA students who will be getting Ibanking offers when he couldn't even get one of those offers himself.

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What is your point? Are you saying the dumb MBA students get ibanking jobs but the smart one's don't? That does not make and is not consistent with what I have seen in the ibanking field. Although there are always exceptions, young NYC ibankers are extremely hard working and extremely smart regardless of their backgrounds.</p>

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<p>sakky, you must know the young Ibanker who lives in my neighborhood - with his mom - so he can keep his Bimmer. When she goes out of town, she has to hire a housesitter because she can't trust him to feed the dog or take out the garbage. I refer to him as the LBanker - as in loser.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Big law isn't for everybody as well. The transition from law school to a law firm, however, isn't as great as the transition from law school to ibanking, which is a field for which they don't offer classes in most law schools.

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<p>Ha! As if other Ibankers have extensive academic preparation for their careers. I know people who got science or engineering PhD's and then became Ibankers; it's not like they learned a whole lot about finance before they started their job. Even the MBA's who became Ibankers - many of them maybe took only 2 or 3 finance courses, which really isn't that much. </p>

<p>
[quote]
What is your point? Are you saying the dumb MBA students get ibanking jobs but the smart one's don't? That does not make and is not consistent with what I have seen in the ibanking field. Although there are always exceptions, young NYC ibankers are extremely hard working and extremely smart regardless of their backgrounds.

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<p>I'm making a quite basic point; which is that Ibankers aren't that smart, relative to other highly smart people out there. </p>

<p>Let me give you a frame of reference. This year, as in most other years, a number of formerly highly successful Ibankers left the workforce to enter the Harvard Business School PhD program in Business Economics. And I am quite certain that all of them will say that they will be lucky just to survive the first year (if they do in fact survive, as some of them may not pass the end-of-year General Exams). They're no longer even talking about actually doing well, they just want to survive. These are guys coming in from Goldman, Morgan Stanley, or the world's top hedge funds, yet here they are slogging through their first year of their program. </p>

<p>Let me give you another scenario in the form of a thought exercise. Take all of the graduating MBA's from HBS who are taking Ibanking jobs (of which there are many such students), and imagine having all of them instead enter the first year of the PhD program instead. What percentage of them would actually survive the first year? I am going to go with 0%, and I don't think I'm going to be far off. </p>

<p>Look, I think most Ibankers know that they could never survive a reasonably-ranked PhD program in Bus-Ec or finance. Or, perhaps most poignantly, most such Phd students, when asked to assess the rigor of a finance course in an MBA program, even an advanced MBA finance course at a top-ranked MBA program, would just laugh. Similarly, few Ibankers would be able to understand even the first few pages of a article in, say, the Journal of Finance. </p>

<p>Now, you might say that maybe we shouldn't be comparing these Ibankers to PhD students. But I think that's precisely the point - what are we really comparing? Now, do I agree that Ibankers are smarter and harder-working than the average American? Of course! But I don't think that has ever been in dispute. What I think we are talking about is whether Ibankers are smart and hard-working, relative to other very smart and hard-working people.</p>