Nobody is arguing that checking a box gets you in anywhere. But in a tight race a slight nudge gets you across the line and that can and does make a difference.
I don’t think anyone here is suggesting the thought with which you disagree. I think the ADs know exactly what they are doing.
There’s obviously no one single factor that determines everything. But we do have studies on this (Hurwitz, Espenshade, etc.).
The strongest “hook” in U.S. elite university admissions is being African American. A surprisingly close second is being a recruited athlete. A ways back in third place is being Latino. And slightly behind in fourth place is legacy.
You can debate the appropriateness of those preferences for sure. But the most rigorous studies using the best data available say that is what the story is.
It’s amazing that these schools are denying admissions to URMs with perfect test scores and GPAs and otherwise great academic and extracurricular records yet somehow being duped into taking others with less than let’s say average stats for that particular school all because they checked a box.
Any business consultants here - I think we have a case of many schools needing of business process reengineering.
Agree that U.S. kids applying to int’l colleges is a trend. McGill, St. Andrews, Edinborough seem to be increasing in popularity. Cheap plane tickets + lower tuition.
Who suggested they are being duped?
@northwesty It may not be as prevalent a factor, but in my son’s case, he liked the aptitude test/academic interview admissions process of an Oxford versus the holistic approach of most US schools.
Re: #333
It looks like this particular school has a significant SES-segregation issue.
Of course, it may not be noticeable for many students at Ivy League schools, since typically half need no financial aid (top few percent income/wealth), and most of the rest are from the upper half of the family income distribution. I.e. the excluded group (those from lower income families who cannot afford expensive fraternities/sororities and other activities and such) is a relatively small percentage of the students.
@roycroftmom In my post, I had inferred it from reading several statements here suggesting that URM applicants had lessor stats and therefore were somehow fooling Ads into admitting them based on their URM status as opposed to them belonging at the school based upon their abilities.
Statements above such as:
@londondad “I am pretty confident that these kids would not have been accepted to Ivies had they not been URM” and your statement “The Ivy gets to report additional URM, the student is full pay and is at least modestly prepared compared to others.”
Those statements infer to me that the student is somehow of lessor ability or is modestly less prepared.
@ucbalumnus I don’t know about that, maybe?? maybe not??. Its about 50% full pay, 50% receiving aid and has good representation of diversity numbers. For every frat /club type that is wealthy there are many others that aren’t. I was just responding to someone’s question of why a URM of a lower ses wouldn’t feel or be accepted into wealthy cliques … I was just trying to show an example of how if you want true integration its important to include all URM socio econ points.
Son loves the diversity there! But he says many groups do seem to self segregate. He wishes there was more integration of all diverse groups including socio-economic groups.
No one believes the adcoms were fooled.
I still don’t understand why high stats URMs are being denied . If they didn’t reject the hi stats URMs then maybe they wouldn’t be under represented any longer.
Our local HS has about 15% URMs, but they represent 50% of those going to the tippy top schools. Whatever you may think, almost all of them are top students. So the takeaway is be a top student in your HS.
@northwesty Don’t know where you came up with African American as the strongest hook, but personally it seems that the strongest hook is a Native American, who lives on a reservation, and is registered with their tribe. Verifiable, and IMO the most oppressed of the races. Applicants who come form this group with decent stats are gold and there are very few.
^ re #352 and CU123
I think this thread has reached its useful end…
Reservation based Native Americans have a life expectancy 4.5 years less than the rest of America, have the lowest high school graduation rate of any group in the country, have a 25% poverty rate, and upwards of 85% unemployment on some reservations.
If only you were so lucky to have been born with a golden ticket like that.
@EyeVeee I see you agree with me
I have a young friend who is headed to college this year. He’s a recruited athlete and there is no question that’s what got him admitted to his school(s). He attends a very highly rated high school with many kids heading to Stanford and the Ivies, to the service academies (and he was recruited at them too), to the state flagship and every other type and level of school (I think over 90% go to 4 year colleges). Most at this school are quite wealthy as the neighborhoods that feed into the school are exclusive and expensive. His mother is white and his father part black, part Cherokee, and a few other races added in. The coaches are thrilled to have him because he’s truly exceptional as an athlete. The administration is thrilled to have him because he checks so many boxes.
He has two college educated parents, went to a top high school, has all the experiences of an upper middle class/high income education (field trips, course offerings, tutors, experiences). He still needs a lot of help with understanding how to apply for financial aid. I think he’s going to need some social help as he’s a mixed race kid heading to the south for the first time. No one has ever treated him as a minority. He’s been a BMOC because he’s a talented athlete.
I think he’s the type of student colleges need when they look for diversity. He’s racially a melting pot, he’s an athlete, he’s lower SES but raise as upper SES. If the schools only considered lower SES or only first generation college kids, they’d miss out on a great addition to the student body. He’s an okay student, but he’s had a good preparation and good foundation (to be a B student at this school puts you way down in class rank, but you still get a good education).
Pointer to http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/20667776#latest
Did we learn anything to take away from this year’s admissions other than racial stuff?
@twoinanddone “, he’s lower SES but raised as upper SES.”
What do you mean by this? That his parents raised him rich even though they really didn’t have the means?
@Dolemite Im not certain I understand, What makes you think high stat URMs are being denied admissions?
My son was a high stat URM and wasn’t denied anywhere. Some people like to think he was accepted bc he was an URM, but he was his HS valedictorian out of 450 at a competitive HS and had very high stats and top ECs.
My point is just bc some are labeled URM doesn’t mean they have lower stats or lower socio economic brackets… yet they still account for and contribute to a diverse student body.
I meant that he went to a very upper income high school, which had the best courses, the best teachers (all with advanced degrees), with 5 or 6 languages offered, something like 25 APs offered, the best teams and coaches, the best facilities. It’s a public school, so minimal extra fees (if any). From elementary on, the field trips were free and educational. It is not unusual for a parent to underwrite an entire class to go to a sporting event, museum, trip to the mountains, fun day at a water park. This is a school district people buy homes in to attend the best schools, and he’s in the ‘flagship’ of the 7 or 8 high schools. He’s also had opportunities to play club sports and attend camps on scholarship or for a reduced fee (he’s really very very good). His SES doesn’t matter at this school, he’s just another kid.
I fear when he gets to his school in the south, his SES and race may matter more than he knows. If schools only take URM who are first generation or poor and not the lawyer’s son or the teacher’s daughter, there may be a big separation of haves and have nots along racial lines. If a school is seeking diversity, it needs to across the student body, including second generation kids who still need a boost. One generation may not have been enough to make things equal for the URM, and really, all college degrees aren’t created equal. If a student’s parent has a degree from a foreign university, does that student really have an advantage over a student whose parent owns a big company but never went to college? Does a parent with a degree from a for profit tech school understand the college application process better than a first gen child at a suburban high school with a guidance counselor for every 50 kids?