taking an ordinary summer job

<p>Again, I'm in charge of all hires at our firm, and there is NO WAY a HS student would be given the opportunity to impress us with their skills and be given higher level tasks (to quote Ken). A 17 year old wouldn't be given that type of work, at least at our firm. </p>

<p>My son will have more growth opportunities at his minimum wage job than in an office position a friend/relative might have arranged for him. He'll be one of many having to learn life lessons, like you've got to show up, be pleasant when you don't feel like it, deal with jerks, spending your own hard earned money takes thought, etc. </p>

<p>To assume a summer job in an office for a HS student, no matter how bright and assertive, is an ticket to mentorships and lifelong contacts is naive at best.</p>

<p>I'm curious about exactly what kind of things people think that inexperienced high school and college students can do on unpaid internships. Back when many of us were young, inexperienced staffers could do things like spend lots of time filing, answering phones, typing (and even those jobs required some training and skills). Now, however, most people -- including executives do their own word processing. Files often are kept in staffers' personal computers. Phones are answered by voicemail. Staffers can push a button on their own computers to print copies.</p>

<p>What are these "mundane tasks" that people think that unpaid interns could be doing? Even when it comes to mundane tasks, a staffer could do them in a fraction of the time it would take an intern to do it. For instance by the time a staff member explains where to find the copying machine, how to work the copying machine, where to deliver the copies, the staffer could have done the task themselves. </p>

<p>What you're not realizing is that it takes time and effort to train interns. A person may be perfectly happy to have an inexperienced student who's a family friend warm a chair in their office, but that doesn't mean the person or their staff has time to train that young person.</p>

<p>IF the intern gets do get a mundane task, many will take their time and do that mundane task and then sit waiting to be handed another. This is not because they are lazy, but because they don't understand how the work world works. They assume that just as they were handed an internship through family connections, they'll be handed more interesting work. </p>

<p>Another possibility is that they assume that all they have to do to be impressive is to show up on the internship, if that. They don't realize that people get better job offers, promotions, etc. by looking for more things to do, creating opportunities for themselves, not waiting for someone to notice them and give them more work.</p>

<p>Unless someone has worked a real job for money, it's normal to think the way that I describe. That's why most h.s. students think that being a volunteer is boring and easy. They are used to simply doing what they are told to as a volunteer, and when there's nothing to do, being able to sit idly, make personal phone calls, etc. They don't realize that volunteers get to do interesting things by creating such opportunities for themselves.</p>

<p>As for students' making slushies not having advancement possibilities: Not true. Some high school students have become assistant managers at places like McDonald's. Others have worked their way up from restaurant bus boy to being a waiter at the busiest times when the tips are best, and being waiters at more expensive restaurants. </p>

<p>Good workers also are more likely to keep their jobs when others are laid off, and they are more likely to be called in for overtime.</p>

<p>In addition to working for H-R for a Fortune 500 company, I also created and ran a 20 hour a week paid internship program for stellar high school students who were aspiring journalists. Even though half of the students' time was in class with me, and even though I gave them some writing assignments to fill up their time, it still was an imposition for their assigned mentors (professional journalists) to have an intern spending about 10 hours a week with them. Yet, journalism is an easier field to do something like this with than would be fields that require even more privacy. I doubt that, for instance, many people here would want a high school or college student sitting in when you have an appointment with your doctor, banker, insurance rep or accountant. Would you even want such a person to be making copies of your medical or financial files?</p>

<p>And if what the interns are doing is basically sitting in an office soaking up the atmosphere and observing things, how many posters would want some college or high school student spending 20-40 hours a week accompanying you on your job?</p>

<p>Keep on pulling me back in...</p>

<p>
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Again, I'm in charge of all hires at our firm, and there is NO WAY a HS student would be given the opportunity to impress us with their skills and be given higher level tasks (to quote Ken). A 17 year old wouldn't be given that type of work, at least at our firm.

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<p>What does that mean exactly? You don't hire 17 year olds? Or you bring them on as interns and don't let them do work? If you don't hire 17 year olds, or don't allow them in your office, how is your firm a relevant example? </p>

<p>A high level task for a 17 year-old is not just taking the presentation to Kinko's to get it copied and bound, but double-checking the spelling and helping with the formatting too. This is what I mean. But this is WAY WAY WAY higher level work than pouring slushies, and much better preparation for the "world of work". And if you show up every day, work hard, someone might think you are worth something, and that someone might help you get a job later, by introducing someone or something to you or by being a reference. </p>

<p>Seriously, have any of you ever had an entry-level job where you wanted to work your way up? Didn't you find ways to show you can do lots of hard work to impress people?</p>

<p>
[quote]
For instance by the time a staff member explains where to find the copying machine, how to work the copying machine, where to deliver the copies, the staffer could have done the task themselves.

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<p>Yes, the first time. Then the next thousand times the intern can do it. The intern can serve coffee at a meeting or set up the projector or do whatever.</p>

<p>You are also assuming the high schooler is interning at some well-oiled corporate machine Haven't you people ever heard of small companies? Non-profits? There are lots and lots of opportunities beyond investment banking and law firms. There is lots of work to be done. Many high schoolers aren't stupid, in fact many have skills and talents beyond their potential employers. Setting up a network, maintaining PCs, updating the website, etc. etc. etc. these are the kinds of things that a smart high school student may know how to do, or be able to learn how to do, and help out a non-profit or small company.</p>

<p>Why do you all assume an unpaid internship means daddy asks his golfing buddy to let little Biff hang around the water cooler for a summer? Why isn't a summer internship going to the local museum and helping out with the fundraising department? A smart, hard-working 17 year old can quickly take that from stuffing envelopes to drafting letters and helping plan campaigns. How dumb are these 17 year old you all know? How shiftless and lazy are they?</p>

<p>Sorry, but we are a professional firm, and truly don't need HS students to proof and improve upon our work. And yes, we have hired 17 year olds, but they've always been friends/family and, while we try to give them work that isn't totally in the grunt role, they just don't know enough to do much more than that. Not an attack on them, but they are 17, NOT professionals. Even most of the uber-CC kids are not professionals, nor can they be expected to contribute at a high level in an 8 week period.</p>

<p>Working for a very small firm or non-profit is a different thing than expecting a HS kid to be able to contribute on a level that would be life-changing for them.</p>

<p>
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Working for a very small firm or non-profit is a different thing than expecting a HS kid to be able to contribute on a level that would be life-changing for them.

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<p>Compared to what? Pouring slushies? A HS kid may not be able to contribute much to a certain type of professional firm, but you also are probably not hiring the right interns. But that doesn't mean there aren't hundreds of other types of businesses where an unpaid HS intern can make a contribution and learn valuable skills, WAY beyond what can be learned pouring slushies.</p>

<p>" A high level task for a 17 year-old is not just taking the presentation to Kinko's to get it copied and bound, but double-checking the spelling and helping with the formatting too. "</p>

<p>I'm curious about how many CC posters work for companies that would have such tasks available. </p>

<p>From what I've seen, people can print out copies from their own computers. </p>

<p>When it comes to proofreading, I wouldn't be trusting most adults, and certainly not high school or college students to be able to do that. Having taught journalism, I have noticed that even those who are strong students, rely too much on spellcheck, and don't know basic grammar, which doesn't appear to be taught well any more.</p>

<p>Companies that do have extensive reports that need to be copied often will have a communication staff or will send the work out to contract personnel with excellent editing and design skills. The companies aren't going to entrust important work to a h.s. student or inexperienced college students. The reports also may be confidential.</p>

<p>" This is what I mean. But this is WAY WAY WAY higher level work than pouring slushies, and much better preparation for the "world of work". "</p>

<p>The "pouring slushies" person may end up being the only person on duty, so may have to handle all of the customers, money, and emergencies. They also may end up having to help train or supervise other staff. </p>

<p>Curious: How many people here work for companies that hire h.s. students or allow them to do unpaid internships? If those options are available, how are they working out?</p>

<p>"Haven't you people ever heard of small companies? Non-profits? There are lots and lots of opportunities beyond investment banking and law firms. There is lots of work to be done. Many high schoolers aren't stupid, in fact many have skills and talents beyond their potential employers. Setting up a network, maintaining PCs, updating the website, etc. etc. etc. these are the kinds of things that a smart high school student may know how to do, or be able to learn how to do, and help out a non-profit or small company.</p>

<p>Why do you all assume an unpaid internship means daddy asks his golfing buddy to let little Biff hang around the water cooler for a summer? Why isn't a summer internship going to the local museum and helping out with the fundraising department?"</p>

<p>Have you ever worked with interns? I have worked with high school and college student interns, and have run programs for them, including a national one.</p>

<p>It is far easier and efficient to hire an adult with experience than to have an inexperienced unpaid or paid student intern. </p>

<p>Things that a person with job experience thinks are common sense are things that people without job experience don't know. From things like correct attire, to how to plan one's schedule so one shows up on time, to knowing not to be at work plugged into one's MP3 player -- these are the kinds of basics that even youths whose parents are professionals don't know. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, most people in offices now get their own coffee. Many also answer their own phones, and do their own word processing and similar tasks.</p>

<p>I've worked in nonprofits, and wouldn't have had the time to supervise an unpaid intern. For instance, most grants are done at the last minute, and at the last minute, no one has the time to show an intern how to work the copying machine. Any mistakes caused by inexperience could lead to missing a deadline and the consequent loss of tens of thousands of dollars of funding.</p>

<p>If a h.s. student wants to get an internship with a nonprofit, they should start out by volunteering extensively with it. </p>

<p>S got a part-time job at the county's volunteer center the summer after h.s. graduation in a place similar to a nonprofit. He got the job, however, because he had been one of their top volunteers throughout high school, including eventually helping to create and organize some projects that used youth volunteers.</p>

<p>As for why many on CC assume that inexperienced h.s. students get internships through family contacts: We assume that because that's the way things work. Most h.s. students and many college students lack the skills to know how to find a job even making slushies. Their parents usually provide guidance so the students know how best to land a job.</p>

<p>Internships at nonprofits and small and large businesses are even harder to land because the interns aren't needed. Not too many business owners and nonprofit executives have the time to be interviewing prospective interns for positions that aren't needed. And interviews and background checks are needed. A bad intern could cause major problems even if they don't have essential job responsibilities.</p>

<p>Man, I really can't understand all the people piling on Ken. On the one hand you look at all office work as making coffee and copies, simply being a drain on staff resources (granted a legitimate point), but you assume that people in menial labor will be constantly dealing with difficult customers, doing so successfully, training others, or even supervising. Interns have to deal with reporting to a boss, dealing with frustrating people, wear appropriate attire (even more true for interns, concession stands will likely provide a uniform), plan their schedule, and many will likely train & supervise any new interns that arrive. These traits aren't confined to those punching a time clock. I find it odd that so many people are going to such great lengths that "pouring slushies" (or the equivalent) is far better work experience than performing in office situations likely to be much closer parallels to their eventual "real" job.</p>

<p>Speaking as a minimum-wage, part-time retail worker: the "pouring slushies" comment is a little derogatory. As Northstarmom pointed out, many of these seemingly-easy jobs actually have much more to them, and it's rather demeaning to say that proofreading a report (which is what I did for the 30-odd papers I wrote this year) is more difficult than my job. Sure, I tell people that I "fold towels for four hours," but I actually keep four departments clean (five, if the new guy is in Shoes; training him is another job in itself) while at the same time handling all customer requests, taking calls, scouring two different stockrooms for merchandise, and helping other departments (including customer service and the registers) when needed. Proofreading requires about the same amount of work that it takes to organize Pillows: they both require looking at a whole (we have an entire wall of pillows) and then sorting through to find errors and then replace them (which, in the case of pillows, requires a ladder instead of a pen).</p>

<p>A little courtesy to those of us who are learning time management, prioritization, customer service, and chain-of-command would be nice.</p>

<p>Edit: DCforMe, as a worker in a horribly-understaffed location, I can say that I have had to deal with difficult people every single day and have had to train new employees in things as simple as remembering to get the returned or unbought items. Just because some places have the luxury of having omnipresent supervisors or good training doesn't mean all do.</p>

<p>Retail work as you describe is actually much higher level than pouring slushies and offers a lot more opportunity for learning and potential growth. There is a lot to be learned about business, marketing, customer services, sales, etc. A concession stand offers far fewer opportunities.</p>

<p>My older son is graduating from HS this week and is starting his first paying job a week from Monday teaching programming at a local computer camp. Said funds will pay for books and spending money next year. The previous two summers, he did research and studies in his areas of interest that led to scholarships totalling a year's expenses at the college he will be attending. (It also helped him get his current position.) As it turns out, "not working" turned out to be pretty lucrative for him, though we had no way of knowing it would be until long after those summers had passed. Right decision for this kid.</p>

<p>My younger son is a soph and is working for a catering company on the weekends this summer. It was his idea. (It's outdoors, he gets to cook, he meets local celebrities, he gets to put $$ in the bank.) He's also an unpaid CIT at an archaeology camp and will earn >100 volunteer hours. (He attended this camp when he was young and this is his second year as a CIT.) The hours and scheduling are such that he will still have time to do weight training for football, nap, see his GF, take driver's ed and wade through a mountain of summer homework. Right decision for this kid.</p>

<p>I think the summers are a time for kids to try out new experiences, academic or not. I hope S2 finds something in his varied endeavors that lights his fire and helps him find a path. I don't give a hoot what colleges think. S may write about some of these things on his college essays, but he's not doing them because of college. </p>

<p>Both kids know they are expected to help pay for college expenses, but they also know we are willing to be flexible if other worthwhile opportunities present themselves. They found their own jobs, and were able to find things that suit their interests and talents. I think that work, even if just for the summer, is an important part of one's education. There is plenty of time for resume building -- at this stage, I say let the kids find a job and get out of their way.</p>

<p>P.S. S1 was considered for a very nice internship where he'd be doing substantive work -- but he had to be 18. Not this year!</p>

<p>My point was that the guy pouring slushies at the 7-11 probably has more to do than you would think, just like the guy "folding towels" does.</p>

<p>" Interns have to deal with reporting to a boss, dealing with frustrating people, wear appropriate attire (even more true for interns, concession stands will likely provide a uniform), plan their schedule, and many will likely train & supervise any new interns that arrive."</p>

<p>The above is true only for people in internships that really are similar to jobs. Examples are the kind of competitive unpaid internships that college and graduate students have to apply for and get course credit for in exchange. Such students aren't given internships as favors because they are family friends. They are graded on their internships, and graduation and their future career prospects may depend on their internship performance. </p>

<p>I had such internships in grad school, and I know that they are hard to get and much is expected of interns. Their supervisors also have to sign agreements that the interns will get to do certain types of work and will have a certain level of supervision. </p>

<p>Things usually are very different for "interns" who get unpaid internships with family friends/relatives who are doing them favors. If the interns suddenly decide to take a few days off to go to the beach, it's no big deal because no one was depending on them. If the intern comes in and spends the day reading novels, no one minds because the intern isn't getting paid and they has been allowed in the office only as a favor. If the intern doesn't get regular tasks or meet regularly with a supervisor, no big deal since nothing is riding on that internship.</p>

<p>I know a lot about young people and internships because I have run programs, and have hired young people. With rare exception, the young people whom I interviewed and know who did unpaid internships that weren't connected with coursework were "shadowing" people who were family friends or relatives. They didn't have duties, but were being allowed to warm a seat in an office and soak up whatever information they could by being there.</p>

<p>"Retail work as you describe is actually much higher level than pouring slushies and offers a lot more opportunity for learning and potential growth. There is a lot to be learned about business, marketing, customer services, sales, etc. A concession stand offers far fewer opportunities."</p>

<p>Actually, a concession stand probably offers more opportunities for a high school student to learn those things because they'd have more responsibilities and exposure to the various aspects of the business.</p>

<p>How many HS students actually get the choice of a paid/unpaid internship anyway? I work for a non-profit public library and the only job we allow HS students to do is shelve books and we have a fairly rigorous screening process because we have found that teen volunteers are the most likely to stop working whenever they feel like it. </p>

<p>The college students can hardly find internships, paid or unpaid, wouldn't it be wrong of a HS student to take that job from a deserving College student that could use it for his/her resume? ;)</p>

<p>"Why isn't a summer internship going to the local museum and helping out with the fundraising department? "</p>

<p>Do you have any idea how difficult those internships are to obtain, particularly in a city like New York? The process can be quite rigorous, including several rounds of interviews.</p>

<p>I have to side with those who say -"take the job." </p>

<p>I think it is so important for every kid, particularly those who have been raised in a comfortable environment, to have a job that is mundane, glamour-less, and maybe a little demeaning. I think it helps to keep their perspective on the world and to understand just how difficult it would be to manage on a minimum wage job.</p>

<p>Ken, I notice that you repeatedly say that kids whose parents have money don't "need" money from a summer job. That seems to assume that the parents' money IS the children's money.</p>

<p>It isn't. Not if the parents have any common sense. Not if they want their kids to learn something about the value of a dollar that's earned instead of given as a handout.</p>

<p>I have some money. Not a lot; not enough to hand out cars and foreign vacations. But enough to grant whatever small summer wishes my children might have. Trips to the movies or the amusement park. Video games. Music downloads. Concerts. They wouldn't "need" to earn those things for themselves if I just opened the purse strings and handed out the cash all summer. Nor, if I scrimped enough on my own expenses, would they need to save up their own earnings for their college textbooks and spending money.</p>

<p>But that would be doing them and me a grave disservice.</p>

<p>Teens need to understand that there is no magic money tree, and that parents are not slaves who serve their every whim while they sit on their privileged backsides. They need to understand that they are not entitled to a certain lifestyle just by existing, or by being smart, or by accident of birth. </p>

<p>I want to raise my kids with a work ethic, not a sense of entitlement.</p>