I have a son, 4th grader, who is interested in math competitions. So, he recently got started on AoPs resources. He is doing prealgebra 1 on his own, and in June, he will be taking online prealgebra 2 AoPS class.
Based on my research thus far, it seems that AoPS is the way to go for pretty much all students serious about math competitions like AMC, AIME, USA(J)MO, etc. Several people have advised me that school math simply won’t be enough. So, it seems that my son would need to continue to take AoPS classes or study the books on his own until he pretty much exhausts them – probably next 8 years until college.
My question is just how challenging this might be because my son will be going to school full-time and pursuing other extracurricular activities (e.g. playing cello). This fall, my son will be starting a private day school in our area that is reputed to have a rigorous curriculum. RE their math class, we have been told that the classes will be small enough that allows for personal tailoring for even very advanced math kids. There were 5th graders last year (or this year) who received the perfect score on SAT math and AMC 8 and did just fine in the class without getting bored. Also, a recent MathCounts National winner has come from this school. So, his school workload will not be insignificant.
Would appreciate getting any advice or hearing your first-hand experience in either tips for success or watch-outs in taking AoPS classes in addition to regular school work. Thx a ton in advance!
Just wanted to add that thus far my son has been really enjoying going through AoPS prealgebra on his own. Because of the late start of his current school, he can study the AoPS book in the morning for an hour or so on most days. But, his new school will begin much earlier, which means he may not have any time for either math or cello practice in the morning. So, in thinking ahead, I am concerned as to how he could find additional time and energy for this extra commitment.
Math class is very different than competition math. You need a strong foundation in classroom math for MS and HS competition. But the best way to get good at competition math is to do practice problems. It is possible with tailored math class that he will have time to do some competition prep during class. My kids did a little AMC prep in school.
What is the MS math club structure at his school? Schools that produce Mathcounts National Winners have students who spend a lot of time studying math. Some schools support this with math clubs that provide hours of practice. Others have students who study on their own or have tutors/summer programs/other out of school resources. Kids who win Nationals for Mathcounts often don’t invest a lot of time in other extracurricular activities. One could still play an instrument, but probably not in a competitive audition based orchestra. Same with sports - local sports with one game and practice a week is one thing, but not a club travel team that requires a lot of time.
AoPS is very popular for competition prep. They have semester long classes, and focused weekend classes for competition prep. They also have free sessions to review AMC8/10/12/AIME a few days after the test.
There are two math clubs at the lower school level (5-8th grade): one for 5 & 6th grade and another one for 7th and 8th grade. At both clubs, students go through competition math (like mathcounts) problems once a week.
Re your point about how winners of National Math competitions are rather limited in their pursuit of extracurriculars besides math, I continue to struggle on the very issue for my son, who is pretty serious about cello and spends around 15 hours a week counting his daily practice of 1.5 hrs., 2.45 hrs. of orchestra rehearsal, and his weekly hour long lesson. His teacher has some high aspirations and wants him to practice more as he gets older.
Do you think it is possible to get pointy in two separate fields like math and music? Is it even wise trying to pursue high level accomplishments in two different fields? Have you known or heard of any kids who have achieved this dual success? It seems that it would be a lot easier if my son was homeschooled, but with a full schedule of regular school, it might be a very difficult journey. Still, I feel it is too early for my son in 4th grade to give up on any of his interests or passions. Maybe he will have to eventually, but not now. Would appreciate your thought.
I think I responded on that thread too. I would not suggest he give up either in 4th grade. However to be at a national level in math or music requires a lot of time. I only know one National Mathcounts winner personally and he did math. A lot of math. Not sure about sports or music but not national level.
It is absolutely possible to be good at both. But to get to Mathcounts National Champion or IMO team in high school takes lots of time. It might be possible to make Mathcounts National team with slightly less time but that depends on how competitive your state is.
Thank you. I suppose my son’s goal should not be winning, but to enjoy problem-solving. As someone said, winning something should really be an after affect of hard work and persistence. Just curious how competitive Washington State is for MathCounts?
@honeyharasho - Your son is just getting started - see where it goes before worrying too much about time commitments. So much is going to depend on his innate talent and how interested he stays. Think of the next few years as a journey of discovery. If it turns out that math is too much of a commitment in view of his music, then he will have to make a choice, but no reason to force the choice now!
AoPS prealgebra and intro algebra courses are not going to be that time consuming, and they will certainly have positive spillover effects for regular coursework. Maybe 5-6 hours per week at most for kids who “get” math. It’s easy to do both prealgebra A and B courses in a year and they are the perfect level for a 4th/5th grader. If your son still wants to advance, and can strike the right balance between music and math, I’d recommend courses on AoPS that are outside the standard school curriculum, which he will get at regular school. Both the intro number theory and combinatorics courses are terrific and accessible to someone who hasn’t done much in algebra yet. AoPS geometry is also superb, highly recommended, but fairly time consuming.
For competitions, my personal feeling is that the AMS series is better than Mathcounts; especially at the AMC12 and AIME levels, the problems are very interesting and would be a good target for later middle school competitors. Mathcounts tends to be much simpler math done under more intense time pressure. Last, don’t overlook the untimed proof contests like USAMTS, obviously for later on after say 6th or 7th grade through high school, because they appeal to different skills and your son might “click” with that format. You never know till you try.
Also, I think I mentioned on another thread that summer math enrichment/competition camps can be terrific options. MathPath is a fantastic 4-week summer camp for younger kids (11 -14) - not competition focused, but rather deeper math topics. AwesomeMath is shorter (almost 3 weeks), extremely intense, and also terrific for kids 12 and over who want to do 100% competition math.
Most of all, I would encourage your son to start friending kids on the AoPS forums right away. If and when he finds his “tribe” there, he’ll know it. Good luck!
Thank you very much, SatchelSF. All your info, advice, and suggestions are helpful and greatly appreciated; you seem very well-versed and experienced in raising math-loving child or children. Glad to hear that prealgebra and algebra courses are not too time consuming. It is just that even now I felt that my son’s schedule is pretty full. As you say, next few years will certainly be an interesting time of discovery and trial and error.
There is actually one question that I have been meaning to ask you. From your post on another thread, I found out about emf Math foundation courses (https://www.elementsofmathematics.com/). From what I can gather from their website and reviews, they seem pretty intriguing and also deep and rigorous vs. regular math curriculum. Also, they offer a pre-algebra class of their own. I just wanted to know how they compare to AoPS in terms of their value to students. If there is enough time, I would like my son to take emf in addition to AoPS. But, we will have to probably stick to one, at least for the time being. What has been your experience with EMF courses? Thx. a ton in advance!
Just one more question before I forget. What would be some of the main differences between online AoPS course vs. self-study of the AoPS book? I think my son can take a class over the summer, but once school starts, self-study would be a better option. Would my son lose out a lot by doing self-study instead of taking an online class? Thx. a lot again!
AoPS is an accredited provider these days. Perhaps you can work with the schools gifted coordinator to replace his regular math with giving him credit for AoPS.
@honeyharasho - Well, I’ll try to address your questions. EMF looks like a very intriguing program, but unfortunately I don’t have direct experience with it, only what I can glean from looking at the curriculum and some of the source material and problems. It looks to be “deeper” than most math programs, with a nice introduction to rigorous math at a very early age that I would think make sense for talented kids. There is a huge difference between college level math (past the basics like calculus) and the more algorithmic approach of high school math. AoPS and the competitions seek to bridge this gap by having kids struggle with problems, which encourages a flexible approach, while EMF seems to favor a more axiomatic, proof-based approach starting at a simple level. I think if I had to chose one, I’d go AoPS, both because it will be more practical for the many competitions out there (and just as in athletics, the “good” math kids find each other in the competitions, not in their regular classes, just like athletes don’t bother much with PE class), and also for the strength of the community through the forums.
It’s worthwhile I think to see if you could substitute AoPS for regular classes, but I know schools won’t give you a discount for skipping their math classes! I’ve said it a number of times on here, but no regular school (except maybe the Proof School in San Francisco) is going to approach the rigor of AoPS, and no group of kids is going to be as capable. There is a reason that just about every talented math kid is on AoPS.
About missing out by studying the books and not attending course, I do think you miss out a good deal, especially with regard to the feedback you get in the class on proof writing. A disciplined student could of course get the lion’s share of the experience from just the books (which are great), but for that last bit nothing beats being part of the class. But that only really applies to the standard curriculum. I don’t think that the competition focused courses are that worthwhile, until you get to the AIME level (WOOT is also a great course for kids targeting USAMO, but that is going to be a few years down the line for your son). For competition, nothing beats doing lots of problems and participating on the forums. There are some terrific kids on there.