Taking, or not, notes in MS classes

Parents Corner
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<p>My S has just started 8th grade, and I'm trying to decide what to do about a continuing issue with note-taking. He prefers to just listen to the teacher in class, rather than taking notes. He finds that trying to write down what the teacher is saying interferes with his ability to absorb the information. In some cases, the "notes" are projected on a whiteboard and the kids are supposed to copy them down verbatim. My S has tried writing down only the major headings, but the teachers catch him and insist that he write down everything. </p>

<p>I'm not sure what to do about this. On one hand, note-taking is an important skill that he may need in the future. One the other hand, my S may just learn differently than other kids. He is extremely bright, and always gets 100%, or close to it, on tests. We're in a good public school district, but the work in almost all classes is below his level of ability. He is applying to several highly competitive independent HS for next year. </p>

<p>It seems that if the "notes" are prepared by the teacher, then it would make more sense for them to be handed out rather than having the kids copy them. But in some cases, the kids are expected to take their own notes, and maybe this is the time my S should be learning to do this. He probably won't always be able to rely on his ability to absorb and retain the information without them. If he gets into an independent HS, he may be in trouble without this skill.</p>

<p>The teachers all say that my S listens intently in class, and is oblivious to anything else going on. He participates enthusiastically in discussions. But they all feel that the kids have to be writing all the time, not just listening.</p>

<p>Advice?</p>

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<p>Our son never took any notes in MS and did just fine and frankly we never thought anything about it. He did start note taking from the git go in hs and was even taught note taking techniques by his 9th grade teachers. A few went so far as to periodically collect and grade their notes.</p>

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<p>My S would do fine in MS without taking notes, too - better, in fact, than he would taking notes. But the teachers won't allow him to sit there without writing everything down. And I'm concerned that he might need to develop the skills now to use later.</p>

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<p>note-taking is a very important skills. But copying verbatim is not. That seems, however, to be what this particular teacher is asking of the students. It's silly.</p>

<p>Many many college students do not know how to take notes. And they also claim that they cannot listen and take notes at the same time, especially when copying down information from a blackboard or powerpoint presentation. But the major thing is that they do not know what in a particular lecture is the take-away message and what is mere illustration or anecdote; nor do they know how different points connect with one another. </p>

<p>Still, I don't think that in middle school, learning how to take notes from lectures is an urgent skill. Better to learn to take note from reading books (such as finding out what the important information in a passage is; remembering to cite appropriately, etc...) My kids' teachers tried to instill these skills from very early on by having kid do research and write papers.</p>

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<p>Sadly many many teachers believe that good notetaking consists of writing down whatever the teacher writes on the board (or projects, these days). It's not true. In my experience, teachers should be writing down only the headlines, and students should be figuring out the topic sentences. ANd if the teacher is lecturing from the book, the student would be best off figuring out what the important questions are, and taking notes about that!</p>

<p>I would suggest finding some research on active listening/notetaking and taking it to the teacher. At the very least, s/he should be teaching different methods of notetaking; there are many.</p>

<p>They do, in fact, need to learn notetaking in middle school; at HS, the content gets so much greater that students who don't already have a quick reliable notetaking method will struggle.</p>

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<p>This is an issue in multiple classes, as it was last year. Thank you for the comments which are helping me sort things out in my mind, before approaching the school/teachers.</p>

<p>Marite, thank you for reinforcing my belief that copying material verbatim is not a useful skill. </p>

<p>dmd77, thank you for the suggestion about the research. I'll look for some, both to discuss with my son and to back me up when I go to the school. I hadn't realized that there were established methods of notetaking. I'll look into it, and perhaps we'll suggest that my son use one of those rather than copy down material verbatim.</p>

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<p>I agree with marite & dmd that copying verbatim is pointless and active listening/notetaking is the ticket. How to do this properly is the problem. I don't know enough about learning styles to really say if a kid who is an aural learner can get by long-term exclusively with your son's method. I really doubt it, though. Generally, the more senses used at once, the more effective our learning is. So some type of note taking should be taking place, if only to try out methods that he'll use in the future when he is challenged.</p>

<p>dmd: Do you have any suggestions on where to find notetaking methods? My 10 year old will be struggling with this soon & I guarantee our school system will be useless with recommendations.</p>

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<p>I was always one who learned better writing things down. But some people learn better when they hear the material. For these people, having to take notes interrupts the hearing process. I knew a kid in law school who never took a single note in class. He paid attention and did just fine.</p>

<p>Maybe you could talk to this teacher about different learning styles--if your son is paying close attention and can prove to the teacher that he is getting the material down, the teacher may cut him some slack.</p>

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<p>Sticker, I just did a google search on "active listening note taking" and many links came up. Most of them seem to be from colleges. I'll look though them and post any links that seem to be especially good. I agree that he needs to practice these skills now.</p>

<p>ellen, Like you, I learn better when I write things down. Whenever I go to a lecture, I take notes, even though I'm certainly not going to be tested. In fact, I toss the notes away afterward. My son is certainly learning well now, and the teachers realize this. But I doubt that he'll be able to do this forever.</p>

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<p>There seems to be some useful information at this link from the University of Texas:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.utexas.edu/student/utlc/class/mkg_grd/notetaking.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.utexas.edu/student/utlc/class/mkg_grd/notetaking.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I believe just the act of writing down an item commits it to memory better than just listening to the words.</p>

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<p>I looked into note taking with my older son because I thought his method left a lot to be desired. Someone pointed me to the Cornell System of notetaking. I found this: <a href="http://www.ucc.vt.edu/stdysk/cornell.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucc.vt.edu/stdysk/cornell.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"The Cornell system for taking notes is designed to save time but yet be highly efficient. There is no rewriting or retyping of your notes. It is a "DO IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE" system.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>First Step - PREPARATION
Use a large, loose-leaf notebook. Use only one side of the paper. (you then can lay your notes out to see the direction of a lecture.) Draw a vertical line 2 1/2 inches from the left side of you paper. This is the recall column. Notes will be taken to the right of this margin. Later key words or phrases can be written in the recall column.</p></li>
<li><p>Second Step - DURING THE LECTURE
Record notes in paragraph form. Capture general ideas, not illustrative ideas. Skip lines to show end of ideas or thoughts. Using abbreviations will save time. Write legibly.</p></li>
<li><p>Third Step - AFTER THE LECTURE
Read through your notes and make it more legible if necessary. Now use the column. Jot down ideas or key words which give you the idea of the lecture. (REDUCE) You will have to reread the lecturer's ideas and reflect in your own words. Cover up the right-hand portion of your notes and recite the general ideas and concepts of the lecture. Overlap your notes showing only recall columns and you have your review."</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thanks for bringing up this topic. I also have an 8th grade son. At his school they have a research class for the first semester that deals in study skills and researching methods. The kids were given the Sean Covey book "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens " and it looked pretty good. I thought this was written by Stephen Covey but when I looked on Amazon, the name Sean Covey (Stephen's son) came up and the book that is pictured is the one he has. It has great reviews and is very inexpensive used. Sorry, for slight thread hijack</p>

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<p>Although my son was a pretty good note-taker, he really absorbed quite a lot by just listening in classes. Would the teacher allow your son to listen in class while recording it on a tape recorder, and take the requisite notes on the lecture at home? Honestly, I would think a teacher would be thrilled to have attentive, engaged students.</p>

<p>My MS daughter has a great teacher who actually gives an outline of the notes so that the kids can jot down some specifics but not to become so absorbed in note-taking. It works out wonderfully.</p>

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<p>I hated having to write things down from the board, etc. The problem is that this a teacher is teaching not just one student, but 30. And the biggest problem that we have is getting kids to read the info if we just pass it out, ask them to read it, etc. So, by making the kids copy things down, the teacher knows that the kids (all of them) have at least looked at the material once. The teacher may have some lesson plans in which the notes are used later on, etc. When I came back to teaching, I taught English, and would assign reading for the next day's (week's) discussion(s). Tough to have a discussion if only 2 kids did the reading. Scrambling for new lesson plans at the last minute. Unless the kids are like the CC kids, believe me, it is very difficult to get them to study on their own. There are study skills classes in the MS and the HS, yet many kids don't employ what they learn there, choosing not to do anything other than any assigned homework. It can be very frustrating, so many teachers come up with things like this in order to get all the kids to do the work.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
I believe just the act of writing down an item commits it to memory better than just listening to the words.

[/QUOTE]
This is probably why one teacher is making OP's child copy the notes from a white board. </p>

<p>As for note taking classes, back when I was a wee little 8th grader, I took them at the Gifted</a> Child Society. It was geared towards students like OP's...used to doing well and not overly concerned with note taking. </p>

<p>Perhaps there are similar groups around the country?</p>

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<p>barrons, I agree. That's why I write things down during lectures and then discard the paper.</p>

<p>kathiep, I saw the Cornell method mentioned on several of the sites I found. It sounds good to me. I also looked at the Covey book on Amazon and it got great reviews. I'll get it for my son.</p>

<p>lkf, I thought about asking whether my son could record the lectures. At this point, though, he doesn't need to take notes in order to remember the material. I think that it would be better for him to learn to take notes at this point, rather than waiting until he really needs to do so. The teachers do like him, and think he's a great kid. But it seems to bother them that my S is not writing anything down. They walk around the classes to make sure everyone is writing.</p>

<p>ejr1, Yes, this is a problem with public schools and heterogeneous classes. The issue with my S is not being prepared or participation in class - believe me, he's famous for expressing his opinion and loving a good argument!</p>

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<p>DeanJ, Such a class would be ideal for my S. I don't think we have a similar group in our area, but perhaps I can find something online that is tailored to kids like him.</p>

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<p>From the perspective of a kid who hates taking notes:</p>

<p>I never took barely a note down in middle school, but then, I hardly ever studied in middle school, either! I did pretty well, and got straight As eighth grade. In highschool, though, I have had SEVERAL lecture classes; the tests definitely don't align with what's strictly in the reading, and even though your S is very bright and may be able to grasp concepts quite well, it is highly unlikey that he will remember a semester's worth of dates and identities from a lecture history course. He will at some point, like myself, be forced to take notes.</p>

<p>Yes, it is hard to take notes and follow and think concisely about the lecture. It's annoying, but it's a necessary evil. </p>

<p>Here's a way of looking at it outside of the school environment. I want to be a journalist, and did an internship over the summer with a paper. During a phone interview, I was unable to use the tape recorder because using speaker phone would have disrupted other people in the office. The interview was terrible! I was too focused on furiously scribbling down everything the interviewee said, and wasn't able to think logically about the thoughts I mashed on the paper. When I reviewed my notes, I found terrible gaps & places where I could have asked great follow-up questions. </p>

<p>At first your S is going to suffer by taking notes down, but this kind of multi-tasking is a skill he's going to need in school and in the business world. I'd just talk frankly with him about it and see if he doesn't want to just practice a bit in middle school, even if it's unnecessary - at least the time he takes now mastering the skill won't hurt his chances at college admissions or get him fired!</p>

<p>Most teachers will allow a tape recorder, but the fact is one won't always be available, nor will it be practical to listen to a three hour lecture and then listen to it AGAIN to take notes down. Your S just won't have that kind of time on the job, in college, or even in highschool! Sometimes the more efficient solution is painful at first, but the best way to go.</p>

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<p>I almost never took notes about anything, except maybe some formulas in physics class. In middle school, no reasonably intelligent kid HAS to do it to get by. Some may find it useful and it's a technique that should probably be encouraged, but it can be an absolute waste of time and it sounds like your S's teacher is trying to get too controlling.</p>

<p>I have always learned a lot better by listening deeply than by writing. In history classes, in particular, if i had taken notes I would've gained nothing. Learning history, for me, was a case of listening to the story of the human condition as if it were an epic novel, and I had a few great teachers who spun that story very well, filling in details for flavor, other times sticking to the high points. If I paid attention, it all fit together as part of one big story. If I was just taking notes, then "studying" just would've been fitting that story together on my own, from my poor notes, later on anyway.</p>

<p>I would talk to your kid's teacher and make it clear that as long as he's doing well in class, he should be able to do whatever learning method he finds works best for him.</p>

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<p>does he want notes? if he does there is getting a note taker...i had them thru ms and first yr of hs..they make u write ur notes but they write it for u also...its mostly for sped kids but its helpful it allows u if ur handwriting is bad have something to look back at something and/or allow u listen and concentrate in class while not having to worry about missing something</p>