Talk about "cuts"

<p>I have read the prior threads on the issue and know its a thorny and much discussed issue. But its still so unsettled in my mind. </p>

<p>At least two of the programs D is considering, DePaul and Emerson, have cuts as far as I know, meaning specifically cutting to a particular number, not attrition, not letting go students who are not meeting the requirements, cutting #19 even if they are fine because 18 is the pre-ordained number for the ensemble.</p>

<p>D visited DePaul and loved it. We are planning to visit Emerson and it looks like a great program. D has been reconsidering DePaul because of the cuts and is thinking about eliminating it and Emerson from her list. The idea of cuts makes me very hesitant to pursue a program. Since I don't think either school is one she would choose if not for the BFA program, the downside of being cut seems pretty big to me. OTOH, I don't want her to eliminate otherwise great opportunities because of the risk of being cut. </p>

<p>Can anyone chime in with insight, experience, wisdom, a Magic 8 ball?</p>

<p>Also, are there any other schools with cuts?</p>

<p>I don’t know anything except what I’ve read on the same older threads. As a parent, I find it almost unfathomable to send a kid into - and pay for - a program that may cut them after a year or two, and in a field where they would have to start all over at another school. </p>

<p>A pre-med who finds they don’t do well in science? A kid who never took a subject in HS (like astronomy, or archeology), thought they’d love it, but then find it’s not for them? OK, that happens. They make adjustments - and usually don’t lose time and money. But in this case, a kid who starts a BFA, has almost no transferable gen ed credits, who most likely can’t get credit for what they DID do at another school, when it is something they are “good enough” at (anywhere but at the “cut” school!) and still love … that’s a different story.</p>

<p>Anyway, I have no answers. But what I will say is that the threads on this in the past show one thing: it’s important for these kids to have an understanding of their own temperament, before they go to a school that may cut (either massively, like these two, or anywhere, really, since almost all programs reserve the right to jury or otherwise evaluate their progress, and will let them go if needed - but that’s true in any major, that is, if you are truly doing badly).</p>

<p>Some kids see this as a grand challenge, a test of their will, and they’re willing to see if they can make it - kind of like in the profession in general. For others, they realize that college is maybe their last time to learn in a nurturing, “safe” environment. They’d rather be in a “family” than be pitted so intensely against their peers.</p>

<p>I don’t want to put my D in a bad light, but she does want this second kind of school, the “family” kind. She’s done a LOT of auditioning, maybe less so in theater than some of the other kids here, but for many, many years in music (got into the Youth Symphony at 9, pulverized herself physically in competitive marching band for three hot summers, etc.). She’s ready to work her butt off in school, and she takes this very seriously. But I know that she does not get a kick out of a relentlessly peer-competitive atmosphere, and knows that if she felt arbitrarily under the gun (such as in a numbers-driven cut system) in college, it would impact her learning. And she’d be offended to know that we were paying for the privilege.</p>

<p>But that’s just us. She’ll learn the rough side of rejection plenty often - and already has. She is very good at “Do your best - there’s always next time.” But for school, it’s the programs where there is an atmosphere of group collaboration, a real family feeling, that appeal to her immensely. And luckily there are lots of schools with that feeling.</p>

<p>Too bad, though, because otherwise DePaul and Emerson are really nice schools in tremendous locations.</p>

<p>As in so much of this process, the question becomes one of “fit” and “knowing thyself.”</p>

<p>When my D was choosing schools to audition for (MT) she decided that she would not audition for any school with a cut program. She personally knows one person who was cut from a program (not the ones mentioned above) and she has another friend that left a program with cuts after one year because of the atmosphere.</p>

<p>My D decided not to audition for a program with cuts because she believed that once she was accepted into a program that they should train her for the four years of college. Many programs have juries that you have to pass, but they are not cut programs.</p>

<p>At Emerson are cuts for both BFA and BA? I thought I had read somewhere that BFAs could get a BA if cut from the program. My D is only considering the BA so if BAs have a cut program as well she may want to reconsider as well.</p>

<p>I believe Emerson BFA cuts are able to continue as BA’s. I don’t know what the difference is at Emerson, but I do know it’s a blow. I don’t understand any cut system (obviously if you’re not doing the work that’s a different thing). But-- all artists have to be able to take risks, to try and fail and try again-- there are plenty of hard knocks coming in life and if you’ve gotten through a college audition I think you deserve 4 years of teaching and learning. </p>

<p>(And on a practical front, I think two years of tuition–$100,000 or so?-- is a lot to pay if you’re not coming out with the degree you started on.)</p>

<p>I suppose DePaul has a defense for the cut system but it is not on their website. They just explain how it works, referring to freshman year as a “probationary year,” meaning they won’t make a commitment to you yet but they expect you to pay full tuition nevertheless. </p>

<p>It all seems indefensible to me and yet I don’t have an easy answer for you. Despite the cut system, DePaul is very appealing. My daughter applied in theater arts which does not have a cut system. It was easily her favorite interview. The interviewer was the head of the theater arts program, someone who had clearly read and thought about her application. He spent over an hour with her and wanted to know her worldview and not just what she had done in high school. </p>

<p>When she was accepted, we contacted a current acting student, and asked several questions by email. Here is the actress’ answer to the question, “If you had it to do over again, would you choose DePaul?”</p>

<p>"I would choose DePaul over, and over, and over, again. This school has changed my life completely. I’ve learned so much about myself and how I interact with others and the world around me. I am graduating with a sense of self and purpose I never expected to find in these four years. It has been wonderful and I owe so much to this place. This was, of course, my individual experience. I have to say I took advantage of every opportunity I could, soaked up every bit of information…and it has come full circle. :)</p>

<p>“It was hard for me to decide as an Actor because of the cut program they have for acting students. (They cut half of the class after the first year). However, I decided to take a risk and it was worth it!”</p>

<p>See! That’s just the kind of thing that makes us crazy here. They gave my D a ton of individualized attention just as a visitor. I think if you do make the cut it must be an amazing experience. Sigh. </p>

<p>Have I mentioned I don’t like roller coasters? Heck, I get sick on ferris wheels.</p>

<p>Pace yourself: there is more craziness to come!</p>

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<p>It’s not surprising that someone who wasn’t in the half of the class that was cut would feel this way, although that isn’t always the case. We have several actor friends who are CCM grads, back in the days when the cuts there were brutal. I recall one of them talking about how her best friend was cut and she wasn’t, and how that affected her for the remainder of her time at CCM. She could never understand how or why some of the decisions were made, and years later made it clear that this friend of hers had had even more success in the theatre world than she had had, which was considerable. It proved to her that there is often no rhyme or reason to a cut system, in addition to all the other factors which make the business model a bad one. Keep in mind that going in, no one expects that they’ll be in the half that’s cut. If you are, it’s not only been a huge waste of your time and money, in addition to the hit on your self-esteem and confidence, but it will often set you back a year before you can continue somewhere else due to the timing involved. That isn’t to say that you can’t continue on elsewhere and be successful, but why anyone would put themselves in a position like that during their college years when there are so many wonderful programs out there who do not have such a system, is beyond me.</p>

<p>I would encourage you to ask Emerson directly about this policy. I can’t remember the specifics, but i recall hearing on our visit that it was more related to people who just weren’t making the proper commitment, or something. It didn’t sound quite so draconian or specified. I might be wrong, but it is worth getting it “right from the horse’s mouth.”</p>

<p>Here are couple of things I remember reading on CC about this issue:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Some DePaul freshmen “hedge their bets” by applying to other programs during their freshman year, just in case. That way, they could transfer if necessary without losing a year. I suppose if DePaul were a student’s most desirable acceptance, it could be worthwhile (though nerve-wracking) to take the risk of attending…especially if one lived in that part of the country.</p></li>
<li><p>Emerson’s BA is so different from its BFA that acting students might not want to pursue it, if cut. Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong. Also it is my understanding that Emerson’s cut policy is very much less “draconian” than DePaul’s.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>This discussion prompted me to call DePaul to try and get more information about the cut policy.</p>

<p>The incoming BFA class is 42. They cut to 13 girls and 13 boys after freshman year. Students either transfer to another school at DePaul, transfer out of DePaul, or choose a different major in the theater school.</p>

<p>I was told that the smaller number guarantees seniors a place in the showcase. I don’t know if all seniors at other schools are included in the senior showcase. Also, all students in the post-cut class are guaranteed spots in productions.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p>The last time the subject came up, a DePaul student wrote that they were phasing out this policy. The numbers show a steady decline over the last three or four years so perhaps this is correct. It is scant consolation to anyone cut in the interim, though.</p>

<p>Ah, this year’s cut discussion comes late! :slight_smile: For those who read the old ones, you may have seen and clicked on a link to an old FAQ from the MT forum that no longer works. Doctorjohn had some very enlightening things to say on the subject that you may have seen referenced, so I went and dug it up from the original posts of May 26 and June 4 of ‘04. Dang … I was a rising h/s senior then and the MT forum was still just a series of single threads sort of like our 12 part thread … </p>

<p>

[quote]
First, let’s divide the issues. One has to do with numbers. The other with evaluations. </p>

<p>Numbers </p>

<p>It used to be that many schools would admit more students than they could graduate in a performance degree program. The primary reason was that departments were under pressure from administrators to admit a large number of students, based on economic models. But at the same time, administrations were not willing to fund the number of faculty required to teach those students all the way through. </p>

<p>Here’s the problem. You can’t effectively teach acting to a class of much more than 16. It is difficult for administrations to understand that. The predominant model in college teaching is still the lecture, and there is no limit to the number of people who can listen to lectures. Some students will listen, some won’t, and you find that out on the test. Unless the tests have to be graded by hand, there’s almost no limit to the number of students who can be taught this way. </p>

<p>Not so acting. It is kinesthetic, intellectual and emotional work, and it requires feedback, lots of it, from the teacher. If an acting class meets 8 hours/week, and you have 16 students, everyone gets roughly a half-hour of individual instruction per week. That’s adequate. Now imagine what happens if the class meets 3 hours/week and you have 30 students. Six minutes per week of individual feedback is completely inadequate. </p>

<p>Knowing this, most departments have done their best to limit acting class sizes to around 16 and to raise the contact hours as far as possible. But that requires a lot of personnel, and many colleges simply could not provide the necessary faculty to teach the added number of sections. You all need to understand that Theatre departments are in a competitive environment for resources within the university. English, Biology and History need faculty too, not to mention the money that Financial Aid wants for scholarships and Student Affairs needs to renovate the dorms. </p>

<p>So what is a department to do? In the past, many used a “cut” system. They would admit the 40 plus which the administration wanted, teach multiple sections of the beginning work, and then cut the class at the end of the sophomore year. After two years of work, they believed, they could see who had progressed and who had not, and they could make meaningful and fair decisions. </p>

<p>They couldn’t. And the reason has to do with statistics, which theatre faculty typically don’t study. Imagine a class of 40. Standard distribution and common sense tell you that 10 will be at the top in terms of any measure you like–talent, work ethic, progress–and 10 at the bottom. But 20 will be in the middle, and the closer you get to the middle, the fewer the differences between individual students. Anybody can choose the top five from any group of 40, and release the bottom five. (Look at American Idol.) The next five are reasonably clear. But then it gets harder. By the time you’re trying to make choices about numbers 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20, there’s almost nothing to distinguish students. And then it becomes a matter of taste. When that happens, the most powerful faculty member wins, and what that happens, students learn from the moment they walk through the door whom they have to please. You can imagine the results. </p>

<p>That old approach, which is what I mean by a “cut” system, has almost disappeared. CMU abandoned it years ago, as I said, and so did SMU, which is where I taught in the 70’s. It is painful, nearly impossible to administer, destructive of morale, and finally detrimental to the goals of training. In its place, schools have adopted a variety of approaches. One is to admit only as many as they can teach all the way through. CMU does that now, as do we. Another is to create different tracks. SMU has a BFA in Acting, but also a BFA in Theatre Studies. Everyone gets the same acting classes in the first two years, but then the students go in different directions in the last two years. Students know from the beginning what track they’re in. NYU does a version of this, by sending students off to different studios. </p>

<p>Another approach is to have students audition after a year or two to get into the upper-division work. Northwestern does this with its MT program. And virtually every public university with open admissions has no choice but to use this approach. I believe that all these systems are fair, as long as schools are clear about it up front. </p>

<h2>But there are still some schools, I suspect, which have the old “cut” system, which cannot be fairly administered, I believe. Caveat emptor. I would tell you which ones, but honestly I don’t know, but it would be unethical of me to guess. </h2>

<p>EVALUATIONS </p>

<p>"It’s an interesting point - having admitted students with some promise and credentials, do English departments ‘cut’ their undergraduates who aren’t writing up to standard? If the students are really writing badly, they flunk out. If they are simply not among ‘the best’, then they go on to graduate, but may not find immediate success as a novelist or be a successful non-fiction writer. But no one cuts them from a program at age 19-20. </p>

<p>Why the difference?" </p>

<p>That was JrMom’s excellent question, echoed by Susan who wrote, “What is the worst that can happen with that student finishing the program? The student just may not have good career prospects.” </p>

<p>These are not simple questions, and I don’t promise simple answers. But I do think there are two primary reasons. The first has to do with standards and reputations, the second with the nature of the performing arts and how people learn them. </p>

<p>STANDARDS AND REPUTATION </p>

<p>The first reason for using juries and similar evaluation systems is historical: some theatre conservatories are descended from music conservatories which have been doing this sort of thing for centuries. </p>

<p>Juries are an accepted part of the world of music. So much so that Indiana University, my son David’s alma mater (he is a bassoonist), only has to say in its list of requirements for the performance degree, “Entrance audition, freshman jury, upper-division hearing, junior recital, senior recital.” Not much further explanation required. Students understand that they must pass each and every level in order to receive the degree. David tells me that students get two chances to pass these juries; if they don’t pass the second time, they have to find another major. But he also tells me that he knows of it happening only once or twice in his six years at IU. </p>

<p>If that’s true, why do the faculty keep the jury system? Why don’t they simply rely upon grades in courses, including the studio? </p>

<p>Historically, European universities separated professors from tutors. Professors lectured and wrote the examinations, while tutors helped prepare students to pass the exams. Early educators recognized that tutors would have difficulty making hard judgements about students with whom they’d developed a close personal relationship. Examinations, administered by the college, were the only way to ensure that graduating students had mastered an accepted body of knowledge and skills. </p>

<p>American universities, for a variety of reasons, combined the two roles and allowed professors to grade their own students. (That carries its own set of problems.) Nowadays, the only vestiges of the old European model are in: </p>

<p>I’m personally a proponent of a program at least having the possibility of a cut - i.e. “back by invitation” - since the work is both cumulative and collaborative and one or more students regularly lagging behind, having lackadaisical attitudes, coming in unprepared, showing up late etc. can have a detrimental effect on the class as a whole. However, you do have to make something of a leap of faith in choosing a school that does it that way because there is the possibility for abuse. Then, some schools seem to pull the trigger on it a lot faster than others and it has also been rumored that some claim this status when, in reality, they cut to a number just like DePaul or Emerson. </p>

<p>Not to pick on Webster, but there was a lot of discussion a few years ago about what seemed to be an unusually large attrition rate at the time with cuts being a big part of it. The author of this post, FormerAdm, was “drive by” and has questionable credibility in that it was the only thing he/she ever said, but it does make a lot of sense …</p>

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Scared yet? :D</p>

<p>If you double your freshman class tuition without adding faculty, it will do wonders for your bottom line. You could say those students who are cut are actually subsidizing those who stay.</p>

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<p>Exactly. The fact that most schools are able to provide a program to all admitted students, without cutting half of them part way through, makes it even more bewildering as to why some schools feel the need to maintain a cut policy.</p>

<p>Possibly this too is a matter of dollars and cents. DePaul’s tuition is very reasonable compared to comparable schools. They are generous with scholarships and they guarantee the same tuition for all four years.</p>

<p>I suppose it will always be a personal decision whether to attend a school with mandatory cuts or not. In the end, my D determined (although she auditioned for 2 schools with cuts) that she really wanted to attend the same school for 4 years no matter what. She also wanted the decision to switch majors (if desired) to be hers and not some random “numbers driven” decision. So…she went for a non-cut BA program. However, she has two friends from her HS class in cut programs - one at DePaul and one at Emerson. We’ll see how it goes a year from now!</p>

<p>Fish, I’m not entirely sure how you found those old posts, but thanks. I hope others found the comments useful.</p>