<p>Very informative, Fish and DoctorJ. Thank you.</p>
<p>My daughter and I visited the school earlier this year and had a very productive and frank discussion with their Director of Admissions. Cuts was definitely something that came up. My first concern was, what happens to students that are cut at the end of an academic year, when it’s too late to apply to just about anywhere else? Her response was that they tell all incoming freshman to definitely apply elsewhere for the following year, just in case. While this certainly a burden and doesn’t address all of the issues raised in this thread, I was somewhat comforted that they were at least taking some responsibility from the get-go for repercussions of their policy.</p>
<p>In terms of who gets cut and why, she explained that like any conservatory program it is very demanding, and that some students can’t or won’t keep the commitment to consistently show up and do the work. While she didn’t say it in so many words, I got the impression that this population accounts for a big chunk of the cuts. She did make it clear that there is plenty of communication with students over the year, with the implication that in general the cuts don’t (or shouldn’t) come as a surprise to those involved. </p>
<p>It has subsequently occurred to me that at DePaul, at least, the policy may have something to do with the quality of the student pool available to them. Not that it isn’t a great program - I think it is. But their facility is really not on a par with most other top programs (though this may change), and certainly the academic environment and student population outside the School of Theatre is nothing like what’s going on at say, NYU, CMU, BU, USC or UCLA. DePaul is honest about the fact that they substantially overadmit; to me this is an indication that they are often not an applicant’s first choice. So, fairly or unfairly, their incoming classes are probably not as uniformly strong as that of the aforementioned other schools, and cuts may be a very reasonable way to go under the circumstances.</p>
<p>One final thought, confirming one of the earlier posts in this thread - DePaul gives a ton of merit-based aid - presumably to try and upgrade the quality of the general student body. With very good test scores and class standing a student can probably get at least 50% aid, and with excellent scores and standing, practically a free ride!</p>
<p>Ack!! Fishbowl Freshman - Do you or anyone else know what Dr. John meant when he said “Students know from the beginning what track they’re in. NYU does a version of this, by sending students off to different studios.” This is the first time I’ve seen any implication that some of the studios are for the “better” students!!!</p>
<p>To be clear, there are definitely BFA acting programs that effectively make cuts of one kind or another even though they don’t call it that. BU, for example, “discusses” with students at the end of their freshman year whether they should continue in the BFA program or pursue the BA in Theatre Studies. The sophmore who gave us our tour said that by that point “you pretty much know which way you want to go.” But it sure sounded to us that it wasn’t like you could say “thanks, but I’d rather stay in the BFA program.” </p>
<p>And, at both NYU and Northwestern, only a limited number of seniors get to appear in the full range of showcases. At Northwestern all seniors get to appear in the Chicago showcase, but a much more limited number get to appear in New York (and, I believe, L.A.). At NYU I believe all seniors get to appear in a showcase at their studio, but the overall Tisch showcase is more selective (I believe by audition) and would obviously comprise only a fraction of the >100 seniors graduating each year.</p>
<p>OTM - your points are excellent. On many other threads, we hear about kids having to deal with this situation in lots and lots of majors.</p>
<p>FYI - At BU, it’s a BFA in Theatre Arts, with a significant continuation of acting training. It’s not the same as switching to a BA that is no longer in the theatre school, like at other places (as people have implied about DePaul).</p>
<p>It is true that nowhere has everything for everyone, no fear, no worries. You just have to pick what feels right for you. That’s why so many people still apply to and go to DePaul and Emerson every year, even with this full disclosure. And if DePaul’s numbers are getting closer to “pretty much just the kids who clearly aren’t cutting it, even with warnings,” that seems like a safer bet than in the past.</p>
<p>All theater courses at DePaul are at the Theatre School and they do not offer a BA. Instead they offer a BFA in Theatre Arts, like BU, but I don’t know if these degrees are comparable. The BFA in Theatre Arts at DePaul includes acting classes but you no longer take classes with those in the BFA in Acting program and you cannot perform in main stage productions.</p>
<p>Thanks for this great discussion. Lots to keep thinking about. DePaul’s generous merit aid is one of the things that has kept it on the list this far, as is Chicago itself. </p>
<p>I am risk averse by nature. Just supporting D on this path is (happily) pushing my envelope. But ultimately, D will make her own decisions.</p>
<p>One more thought. </p>
<p>It is a good idea to apply to at least one place that is generous with scholarships or for which you are a little over-qualified because it gives you a good basis with which to negotiate with more expensive or exclusive schools.</p>
<p>Emmybet is right that at Boston University they offer two BFAs…the BFA in Acting and the BFA in Theatre Arts. Students are entirely free to choose which one they want to be in. It’s one of the things that is especially desirable about the program.</p>
<p>There is guaranteed casting for the Theatre Arts kids at BU, just the same as for the Acting kids.</p>
<p>There is a school of thought that some of the very best and most creative theatre people are the ones who pursue a course of study like the ones offered at BU’s (or SMU’s) Theatre Arts program or Tisch’s Playwrights Horizons studio.</p>
<p>At the risk of sounding like a pollyanna, I’ll agree and add that for any of these kids, being forced to take a look at what they want and what they’re doing is a great opportunity to make sure they haven’t limited themselves. “Having” to do a BA instead of a BFA, or “having” to do tech as well as performing, is a way to explore who they are. </p>
<p>I’m really hoping that the rejections and the hard choices will help my D learn about herself, and possibly surprise herself. All she needs to know for sure is that there are always options, no matter what happens.</p>
<p>Hi there,</p>
<p>I’m actually a BA:Acting student at Emerson. Our BA program is really unique because of how competitive it is ( I actually chose it over BFA programs that I was admitted to). It’s just as intense as our BFA track, it’s just that the classes are structured a bit differently. The BFA is a conservatory style learning experience, it’s 15 hours a week of intense study with the same 16 students for 2 years. The BA program allows students to take as many advanced acting classes as they would like (basically up to 15 hours a week). These advanced acting classes are taught by the same faculty that teach within the BFA studio classes. </p>
<p>Basically the BA allows you to specialize in and study the acting techniques you want to study rather than having a curriculum mapped out for you. You get the same training you would in one of our BFA studio classes, just structured a bit differently. It also allows you some extra room in order to double major or minor if you want to. It’s just a more flexible degree.</p>
<p>Also, the two majors are treated the exact same way. Seriously, I’ve never felt as if I’ve missed an opportunity by being a BA over a BFA. Sometimes I actually feel like I get more opportunities because I have the time in my schedule to take a directing class or an internship. That way as an actor I know what a director is looking for and I know how to work better with a director.</p>
<p>In terms of the “cut”, we always have a reaudition at the end of the 2nd year (before the actors go into studio). Normally students are asked to leave the program for a few different reasons, but more than likely it’s because they’ve been late to classes, missed classes or are just not interested in the program any more. To give you an idea of the numbers, we’ve only “cut” two students in the past two years. Two for the class of 2011 and none for the class of 2012.</p>
<p>Thanks for that information CTnapier. Its great to know you are enjoying your experience. We are visiting Emerson soon and are looking forward to it.</p>
<p>Re: the cuts, were those two students from the BA program or BFA? I am guessing there may be cuts of one kind or another from both programs?</p>
<p>People keep mentioning the cuts at Emerson-I’m a bit confused, because before now I didn’t hear anything about cuts at Emerson. Are there alot, and when? Are the cuts there as bad as, say, DePaul?</p>
<p>To the person earlier who said DePaul “over admits,” were you talking about The Theatre School specifically or the University as a whole? As a whole, yes, I would agree, but would disagree about TTS. Besides the Acting track, all of the other majors have anywhere from 2-10ish students each. The number of students who apply to TTS is nowhere near the numbers of NYU or a similar school, especially for the majors like Dramaturgy/Dramatic Crit, but they still have a decent pool to choose from. I was told at one of my earlier visits to the school, for example, that they admit approx. 5 students for the Playwriting major, but only around 20-30 apply.</p>
<p>DePaul also doesn’t have the name recognition of NYU to attract big numbers, but the students who are serious about their field will usually be able to find it. Many of my classmates (and myself) were admitted to NYU Tisch but chose DePaul, for most of us it comes down to money. But, at the same time, I’ve heard mixed things about Tisch (at least for my field) and DePaul was my first choice all along, so it wasn’t too big of a deal to turn it down. DePaul is awesome about aid–I got $80k in scholarships/grants total (bringing my yearly tuition down to around $10k, the same for many state schools), and if you apply to the Theatre School, you’re eligible for their talent scholarships. You’re also eligible for their theatre merit scholarships once the year begins.</p>
<p>But, besides that, this thread is about cuts. The faculty and staff at DePaul are constantly talking with the actors to make sure they fully understand the cut process and prepare for college and life afterwards if they are cut. I’m not an acting major so I can’t tell you how it is firsthand, but it’s pretty stressful just watching the actors go through the cut process. From past students I’ve talked to it seems the students who are cut were mostly the ones not willing to keep up with the intense program, but there were also those who were cut and surprised a lot of people.</p>
<p>My D was accepted to the BFA program at Emerson early action two years ago. We spent the day with the professors at Emerson, and, of course, the cut program was discussed. The BFA’s students who are cut are given the option of going into the BA program. But more often than not, the people who are getting cut are “not surprised.” I think that CT is correct. They are cut because they have not shown a dedication to the discipline required for the program. They miss class, which is a BIG NO NO in all of the acting programs. They don’t show an interest, don’t participate, etc. </p>
<p>However, I personally believe all the programs have some form of “cut”… it just may not be “advertised” as such. At UCLA this year, the first years met with with one of their professors for a “chat”. My D was waiting for her meeting with the professor and could hear through the door the professor telling the student before her that the program was not for that student and the student should go find another program. The student left the program between terms. She has also been told by upper class students that this type of conversation will continue. If students are not “thriving”, the professors will drop very strong hints for the student to change majors. I would not be surprised if other schools do the same. A quality theatre program does not wish to produce a student who does not live up to the school’s standards. Thus, I would expect “cuts” or something of that nature are part of the deal and should be expected at any good theatre program.</p>
<p>But, hey, this is the “biz.” One must expect rejection. Better to learn now than when one is a starving artist trying to pay off the college debt. That’s why I advocate for chosing a school (like Northwestern, UCLA, NYU, USC…) where you can switch majors and get an awesome education if things don’t work out.</p>
<p>“However, I personally believe all the programs have some form of “cut”… it just may not be “advertised” as such.”</p>
<p>Point well taken, chrissyblu. This is something that kids need to be aware of as they decide where to apply.</p>
<p>To clarify – for those students at UCLA who were “cut,” could they stay at UCLA and major in something else?</p>
<p>Yes… and they did. Some became communications majors, others actually went into bio…</p>
<p>“However, I personally believe all the programs have some form of “cut”… it just may not be “advertised” as such.”</p>
<p>I would disagree with that. A cut system, generically, is one where a student is forced to leave the program for reasons unrelated to whether the student is fulfilling all responsibilities as a student. A student can be attending all classes, working hard, be dedicated and be getting good grades, and the student is cut for reasons unrelated to any of those factors, either because of a numerical count or because of some type of one shot subjective re-evaluation process. </p>
<p>All schools at some line of demarcation are going to dismiss a student from the program if the student is skipping classes, coming unprepared to studio, getting bad grades. In that respect, it is no different than flunking out of an academic program. And, there will certainly be schools where a student is counseled to leave the program even though the student is trying hard, simply because the student is struggling greatly and not making expected progress not withstanding the student’s best efforts. Many such schools take remedial action such as putting a student on casting restriction or require a student to repeat a class.</p>
<p>All of this is different, however, than forcing a student to leave (regardless of grades, work ethic and commitment) because the school matriculates more students than it intends to keep and cuts to a number or because the school requires a one shot subjective re-evaluation to stay in the program. Cut systems vary in how they are structured and applied. It is important to ask a lot of questions up front.</p>
<p>I too think there is an immense difference between cutting students who are not trying and cutting students who are not thriving. This is higher education, it’s not ‘the biz’-- and it’s the faculty’s job to help a student thrive and grow.</p>
<p>I teach fine arts myself and I can’t imagine being so egocentric that I would tell a student to leave the course of study he/she was pursuing. If they’ve been chosen by admissions, and they are putting heart and soul in…that’s more than enough at this age. And I think all fine arts demand a kind of openness and vulnerability that’s near impossible in an atmosphere of stress and anxiety such as a rigid cut program engenders.</p>
<p>I agree with Gwen. School should be a time of discovery, exploration and risk-taking. It is not the real world. I’m sure these students experience plenty of rejection in all sorts of ways, anyway, during their school years!</p>