Talk some sense into me over these first semester grades please

Parents Forum
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<p>Ds's grades are in and they are "ok". He's coming from a small rural school background where he never had to work hard at all. He's now at a highly competitive university in an urban setting. I do believe he worked hard this semester, but I know his organizational skills are not his strength and I also think he probably underestimated the work load and got behind the eight ball at the beginning...........all part of the learning curve of going off and learning to be an adult, get yourself to class, get up when the alarm goes off, making new friends, his roommate's extreme night-owl habits, discovering beer :rolleyes: , etc, etc etc.</p>

<p>I think coming from his rural background (he says he has a real sense of being "behind" everyone else coming from high powered public\private high schools) and with the organizational skills I'm sure he had to develop this semester, he has shown he can at least "tread water" with the big dogs. My question is this:</p>

<p>How could he have underestimated his grades so much for the semester???? :confused: He came home telling us the grades he thought he made. His average is almost one grade point lower than he thought and one of the grades was a BIG surprise. He thought he was in A/B range and it was C+. I know this university grades on the curve. I know he's working hard and I'd put a C+ earned at his school up against a B+/A earned at our nearby public university. I know he doesn't go to each and every class...........I don't remember the terms, but there are the huge lecture classes and then the smaller study groups where they get the materials again and he goes to the smaller groups all of the time and not always to the huge lecture classes. When I suggest he go to each and every class he rolls his eyes and sighs because I obviously don't know what I am talking about. :rolleyes: Well, I figure there might be some grading feedback (on the curve) info coming out he doesn't know about if he's not there. I suggested he go talk to the professor why he got this grade and got the same response. He's NEVER been one to chat up teachers (kinda shy).</p>

<p>When I think of where he was at 4 years ago (suffering from chronic illness, which is now gone, thank God) and where he is now, I am thankful beyond words. He always seems to use up more of my mom "worry" quotient and emotional energy..........maybe because he's the oldest. I just worry about him being able to kick it up another notch and the courses are just going to get harder. He's learning a lot, but I can't shake the visions of him not being able to get into graduate school, etc, if he can't pull the grades. Not everyone can make straight A's in college. I didn't. I had my epiphany when I flunked a tax accounting test. Then I kicked butt and earned an A in the course and treated my studies much more seriously from then on (last 2 years of college).</p>

<p>I know he has to do all this himself and I will give him the "mom talk" before he heads back. I just need a place to vent. </p>

<p>momoffive</p>

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<p>momoffive,understand re: need to vent. A C+ first semester is not terrible but it is a little concerning that he was so far off on what he thought his grade would be. All of DS's profs put out a syllabus at the beginning of the term that outlines the grading procedure/weighting,etc. In fact, I had almost the opposite problem: DS had to keep a 3.4 for honors program, he calculated all his grades/exams/etc. to get a 3.529. While I was happy with that GPA truth be told he probably could have done better but he didn't want to make the extra effort. Okay now that my rant is over:
I would have the mom talk with him. Make sure he understands that he should be attending all classes even the large lectures where he won't be missed. My mom talk includes the fact that going to all classes is a minimum requirement of me paying for college.</p>

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<p>I think your S needs a reality check. The huge lecture classes are NOT a waste of time. The smaller study groups (sections?) do go over only SOME of the ground covered in lecture, usually to clarify points that may not be absolutely clear to students, not to be an opportunity for the section leader to regurgigate what the prof said in class. The main purpose of sections in fact is to do something different, eg. discuss assigned readings, allow students to talk, take sides, etc... </p>

<p>He is the one who does not know what he is talking about, not you. Sorry to be harsh, but he's started with bad study habits. Little to do with organization, a lot to do with attitude. It really does not matter what grades students pull at nearby U. He's not there. He's at selective U, at a disadvantage vis-a-vis students from prep schools, and he's got to work harder than they to catch up, not imitate those who feel that college is easier than their prep school.</p>

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<p>momoffive~</p>

<p>First of all, may I just give you these {{{{{big hugs}}}}} from a mom of six? :)</p>

<p>About this:

[quote]
How could he have underestimated his grades so much for the semester????

[/quote]

In all fairness to your son, I don't think that this is hard to do. My S is a sophomore at an academically challenging college, and so far, he has had professors who span the spectrum on the amount of feedback given throughout the semester. Some professors are MUCH better at letting the students know their standing throughout, so I can definitely see how your son might not have had an accurate picture of his grades.</p>

<p>Like your son, mine came from a small, rural-ish area where he was at the top of his game in h.s. without having to expend much effort. It was a HUGE shock to his system to be among an entire group of kids like himself, many of whom came from prestigious private schools and high-level publics. To my son's credit, he has done phenomenally in this environment, but to be perfectly honest, he has some personality characteristics that enable this and I can VERY easily see how many, many kids would flounder for a bit in this same situation. In fact, my son is very good friends with a kid who was at the top of his game at a private school before going to college (with very little effort), only to end up on academic probation the first semester at college.</p>

<p>I think it is FABULOUS that you are able to look back at the struggles your son has had and to appreciate how much better his life is now, even with this little bump in the road. By virtue of the struggles your son has had with the chronic illness, you have been blessed with a perspective that few of us have had to embrace. That you are able to keep all of this in perspective is a GOOD thing and one I hope that you will never lose sight of.</p>

<p>PLEASE do NOT think that your son's future is in an way doomed with grad school because he is taking a bit of time to adjust to a college setting that is very different from his high school one. I absolutely DO understand your concerns, but if you look around at all of the successful professionals around you and talk to them about their past experiences, you would be quite surprised! You are right...not everyone makes straight A's in college and because that is true, your son will be right in with the pack in applying for grad schools later on. </p>

<p>Go ahead and give your sweetie the "mom talk." <em>lol</em> :) I'm quite sure I don't have to tell you this, but make sure it's full of love and encouragement and belief and trust along with any suggestions. It sounds like your son is a really GREAT kid....with a REALLY great MOM!</p>

<p>Best wishes to your S for a wonderful and academcially successful spring semester! </p>

<p>~berurah</p>

<p>edited to add one more thing: I know that there have been classes in which my son has not attended a lecture or two. So far, his grades have not been affected by this (and it's certainly not a habit), but IF my son were struggling academically, I'd also really stress that he attend each and every class offered, both the large lecture classes and the smaller study groups.</p>

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<p>momof5-dont be so certain that that C+ would have been a B+/A at the local public U. A friend's son had a 4.0 gpa freshman year at Johns Hopkins and took Physics 1 during the summer at our flagship university. Result? His first B!!</p>

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<p>

:eek: :eek: :eek:</p>

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<p>I am taking notes and appreciate all the advice. Thanks a lot, momoffive :)</p>

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<p>Momof5, it is really important that he attend the lectures. The material covered in the lectures is presented by the professor who is preparing the exams which is very important. Second, ususally is one recitation/tutorial hour per 2 lecture hours +/- , these are often staffed by grad TA's and the fucus is on reviewing "some" of the material, answering questions concerning the lecture, reviewing problem set questions, etc. They are not a substitute for attending the lectures.</p>

<p>You need to encourage and urge your son to attend all class sessions to gain the most benefit out of class contact hours. That is what you are paying for after all.</p>

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<p>Am I correct inferring that C+ was his lowest grade at an academically challenging place, and that the others were B's and/or A's? If so, I think that should color your talks with your S. As much note needs to be taken of his successes as of this disappointment, in my opinion.</p>

<p>I, too, am the mom of a kid at an academically challening place, who saw his lifetime first C+ this term. Mine is a sophomore who carried pleasing 3.5+ GPAs as a freshman and has about a 3.2 this term due to the C+. We are actually celebrating the C+, as he was concerned earlier in the term that he might actually fail the course. To my pleasure (and somewhat surprise), by the time he told us about his worries re the course, he had already taken the initiative to try to solve his problems. He had visited the prof office hours several times, started studying with another kid, ordered an alternate text online which he thought might help (and this is what helped the most). My S, too, is shy-ish re approaching profs and that is why I was somewhat surprised that he had done so.</p>

<p>In DS' case, he attributes his difficulties to a simple disconnect between the way he thinks/learns and the way the prof teaches. I tend to think that is accurate as the course was in his favorite subject matter where he has always excelled. No matter, one has to learn to work with these kinds of situations.</p>

<p>So, I think the "mom talk" should be more about how to correctly diagnose how you are doing, how to get comfortable approaching profs/seeking help than it should be about "buckling down." I think marite's point re the value of attending lectures, along with ebeee's that the lecture may be where he might have learned how the curve was working etc. might be new insights for him. I would focus on sharing these kinds of info rather than on the aforementioned buckle-down approach, as these ideas might be less likely to engender the eye-rolling.</p>

<p>Couple of other points: it may or not be odd that he was so far off in guesstimating his grade. If this was in a science/engineering-type course, graded on a curve, that curve can change pretty significantly after final grades are in. At least that's what I've observed following DS's various classes. Also, he may have actually been at the A/B level up until the final - DS found that just a couple of careless errors can have a significant effect on a test grade; so your S' final grade could have suffered from either of these phenomena.</p>

<p>Finally, on the topic of somewhat shy kids learning to take initiative - I wish I knew what magic pill got into my S' system and spurred him to the above actions. But I think you might recommend that your S try emailing his prof. This is one of the blessings of our modern culture, as it is less intimidating and widely accepted as a form of student/prof interaction. He might even do this right now re the grade in this class - emailing the prof that he hadn't realized where he was on the grading scale and would appreciate the prof's comments. Sometimes there actually is an error; but even if not, it might be a start in your S finding away to approach a prof. Email could lead to in-person discussion and once your S has seen how open most profs are to working with students, it might help him in the future.</p>

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<p>I can completely understand being far off in estimating his grades. In fact, it sounds like your son might be at my son's school!<br>
My son said in calculus, the average grade on a lot of the tests was 65 or below. You only knew, after the tests, where you stood with respect to the average. You didn't know if it was an A or a B, etc. When the final came around, ALL the calculus classes are thrown into the same pool for the curve, so there was no way of knowing how things were going to go. Again- all you found out was where you were with respect to the average. My son was happy with his B+. He took advantage of a wonderful student tutor we found through one of the regular posters on this forum (a student).<br>
In S's writing class, there were NO grades and almost no feedback on assignments throughout the semester. There was no way of knowing how you were doing, even if you met with the teacher, until the final grade was given. My son thought he was the best writer in the class by far, and he got a disappointing B.
My niece at Penn State- an A student at a large, suburban high school, finished her first semester with a 2.1. Not happy (and neither are the parents).
There is an adjustment period. It sounds like your son will adjust!</p>

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<p>Very interesting points......he made B's and C's. The lower grades were in his science and math courses (his area of interest, which is all the more shocking) He couldn't understand the Calc II teacher (non-native English speaking) and by the time he tried to transfer it was too late. I knew he was struggling big time in Calculus (and he made a 36 in math on the ACT and an 800 on SAT II math, so the ability is there). I offered to pay for a tutor but he thought he could handle teaching himself\asking his friends. I guess not. I've ordered a Calc III book from Amazon for him to take back to school. That is amazing all Calc classes were thrown into the same pool, momofwildchild. When we went to parent's weekend, we talked to other parent's about Calc II and some students had teachers who were very thorough and told the kids exactly what would be on the test and some had teachers like my son's. Not to say ds's Calc class was graded the same way.............but if it was, he could definitely be at a disadvantage. </p>

<p>It would drive me NUTS (typical hyper-organized firstborn, how did my firstborn son end up so unorganized :confused: ?) to have to deal with the grading systems y'all describe above. </p>

<p>I will suggest ds email the professor.</p>

<p>Thank you all so much. :D Yes, I am definitely going to approach this from the viewpoint he can definitely handle the workload...........just needs to tweak his approach.</p>

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<p>My son and his roommate "found" each other because they feel very much like your son--from mediocre public high schools in classes with kids from highly competitive prep schools. The way they have handled it though has been very different. My son obsesses and worries about everything academic, while roommate hoped to slide through as he did in high school. Freshman year it worked okay for roommate--ended up with a 2. something. However this semester was a 0.14 and he won't be returning. </p>

<p>If your son was truly working and received a C+ in a class that was difficult for him --- I say it is great. But do point out that now he knows that due to curves or perhaps subjective components like participation, one can't be "sure" of a grade and he should take every opportunity to give himself the best chance (like going to all the lectures). Now, I don't know where he is in school, but my DIL confided to me that she often didn't go to large lecture classes at Chapel Hill because most of the profs posted the lecture notes online and attendance was not taken--so he may have that kind of situation?</p>

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<p>In the grade tweaking department - my son has been reading ahead - and has found that very useful. That plus, as Marite notes, attending all lectures, should help. Also, if the professors accent is difficult, ask them to write down the word on the board. My differential equation's prof pronounced coefficient as coy-chent. It was challenging. College-level math courses are an unpleasant surprise for many of us. </p>

<p>My son is in second year - and this grades did improved noticably this quarter from last year. He is not the world's most most organized person, and, for his first year I was just hoping he would get through in good (if not brilliant) order.</p>

<p>The dean's office at his college (U of Chicago) send out an interesting letter as this year started. It basically said - continue to support your student, but be prepared for surprises. If your kids struggled last year - maturity and improved study skills may kick in this year. On the other hand - second year may bring more challenges for those that earned excellent grades as a first year.</p>

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<p>"I know he doesn't go to each and every class..........."</p>

<p>As others have said, this is the red flag more than the absolute grades as it does indicate an attitude/effort problem. Our S felt that kids from certain schools in rural parts of the state weren't as well prepared as his school had prepared him and he felt badly for them. At the same time, he thought he was not nearly as smart as most of the other kids and therefore had to work a lot harder for that reason. In his case it paid off with good grades, but he is expecting next semester to be much more difficult because he is afraid the kids who were not working hard last semester might change their attitude this semester and make the curve more difficult.</p>

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<p>I'm with Jmmom. DD got a B- in Chemistry. We celebrated that grade. It was a huge improvement over the low grade she got on the first test. HOWEVER, DD never missed that class, took advantage of the college tutorial program and got a tutor for this class, and went to every study session that was set up. She says the teacher's way of teaching was confusing (and a lot of kids in her class were having trouble too...she says). So...this term she'll have a different teacher. BUT she is prepared to go back to the tutorial center if needed. Her GPA for the term was 3.45...not bad, we thought for a kid taking a tough course load.</p>

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<p>Some colleges backload their grading heavily. You can have an A going into the finals or turning in that final paper, and walk out with a D. So it is not unusual for kids in a school like that to have no idea what they are going to get.</p>

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<p>D attends an excellent LAC that avoids some of this angst by de-emphasizing the grading thing. Grades exist (in the student's record), but they're not given out unless students make a point of asking. Most don't. An exception would be if a student were in academic trouble -- then the adviser would be having a talk. But as long as the student is doing okay, grades never need arise. No "dean's list." No honors of any sort based on grades. Our kids went to ungraded elementary schools too, and it didn't seem to stop them from working and learning to potential.</p>

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<p>To OP, It is a common mistake made by freshman that understanding the topics discussed in science and math lectures will be sufficient. In reality, it is not since tests are heavily geared toward problem solving, using the acquired basic concepts. Introductory science courses and beginning calculus courses are also heavily populated by premeds, who generally put out better efforts and affect the grading curve. Thus, even with grade inflation, these classes hand out a significant proportion of C's and D's. </p>

<p>There is no substitute for hard work. It is not organizational skill or being from a rural school system that made the difference. If a student can't do the test problems well, he/she has under prepared for these tests. I hear this all the time from students who claim they understand the lecture materials but are not able to do well in tests. In fact, these students have acquired a very vague understanding. Better understanding requires a student to apply concepts in problem solving that can only be acquired by repeated practice. I don't mean to be harsh, but it is necessary that both you and your son understand that under preparation rather than organizational skill is the root of his problem.</p>

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<p>How accessible are the Profs and TAs? Freshman son took advantage of office hours with Profs in his Chem and Calc classes as well as help sessions that were offered. He also visited his Philosophy Prof regularly before big papers were due with rough drafts to make sure he was on the right track. I would strongly encourage visits to the Profs just so they can put a face with a name, even if it is huge classes. I believe all Profs must have office hours. Try to encourage your son to make contact--I honestly believe it helps. Son learned this in HS from conferencing with teachers about papers as well as asking for help after school. He is not shy about it now!!</p>

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<p>I had an A- going into my physics final in college and after bombing the final was lucky to get a B. It happens, and you can't worry about it. While I agree with others, you probably shouldn't be skipping lectures, there are some professors whose lectures are eminently skippable. I took at least two courses for which this was the case. In one case they were skippable because the professor really didn't add anything that wasn't already in the textbook he wrote. (I went anyway because he was a good lecturer.) In the other - a Shakespeare course - they were so bad a kid in front of me stood up in the middle of the class and said out loud "This class is so bad I'm not every attending another lecture." I followed him out the door. Luckily the TA was quite good.</p>