Talk to your kids!

Parents Forum
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<p>I totally agree with you Muffy! our kids have known for a long time that
they are welcome to apply to any schools they choose but that we are not going to support the idea of incurring huge debt to attend. It's up to them to make sure that, beyond what we are able to pay, if they receive the acceptances they can afford to go. </p>

<p>However, I also have talked to parents about the opposite scenario. They think all college is too expensive and want their kids to attend local community college without ever exploring their options. I find that sad as well. I agree that there has to be an economic as well as an academic safety on every kids' list but I keep telling anyone who will listen that, as long as you're upfront with your kids about what you are willing to do for them financially, people need to allow their kids to explore options. You never know what school will come through with what kind of aid for your kid.</p>

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<p>Muffy, maybe a different comment is, "Or so they tell you."</p>

<p>Take a look at the Common App sticky thread in one of the College forums. The last 10 or so pages are "OMG! It's 11 on Dec. 31 and the Common App site is slow [or down or won't let me submit or whatever]." Then find all the threads earlier this month that said, "Don't wait until the last minute. The servers are likely to slow or crash. There's nothing you can change between now and then to make it worth the risk of not being able to submit at all."</p>

<p>If the kids won't listen to that, what makes any of us think that they'll listen to "Have a financial safety. Talk to your parents about what money is available."? (Of course, that's not necessarily coming from the parents themselves.)</p>

<p>And while we're talking about "magical thinking" by the parents, it's also quite possible that it's the kid who doesn't hear. There's "selective deafness" among teenagers as well as among parents - "If I get into Harvard or wherever, they'll find the money somewhere. Why shouldn't they? I deserve to go." Those threads will also pop up in the spring.</p>

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<p>historymom, love your reason for editing.</p>

<p>I'm afraid you're right, Chevda. If it hadn't been for my harping, I imagine our son would have left things to the deadline, too. Something about the teenage brain. Or as I have said too many times to count (always, of course, with a loving smile on my face), "For a smart kid you are dumb as a post."</p>

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<p>Muffy - I think this thread should be resurrected each fall!</p>

<p>Last year I was really surprised how many parents of DD's classmates were woefully unprepared for what they would be expected to pay. In addition to the merit/need confusion, sometimes I think parents are reluctant to talk about finances with their kids and I think most kids are reluctant to ask their folks what they are willing to pay. </p>

<p>I also know that this is an area where a guidance counselor really cannot help. They have no idea what people earn, what they have saved, OR most importantly, what is their family's philosophy about what they are willing to do. Even on this thread, there are a variety of positions.</p>

<p>Bottom line - we need to figure out what we are willing to contribute and let our kids know and have financial safety as well as an academic safety. Nothing wrong with having a financial "reach" just as long as the kids know that's what it is.</p>

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<p>We started talking about finances with the kids when they pretty young, in the context of how we made family financial decisions about buying a house, getting cars, etc. Told them about how we both put ourselves through school, and knew how difficult that was, and how we knew about long-term student loans, and that it was important to us that we be able to help them as much as possible in college. There was always an explicit assumption that they would be taking out Staffords and getting part-time and summer jobs, too. It has always been, and will continue to be, a team effort.</p>

<p>We lucked into kids who aren't into "stuff" -- so actually trying to teach budgeting to a kid who spends maybe $150 a year has been a challenge. (He wants to be a professor and finds the poor grad student image attractrive right now. Heh heh.)</p>

<p>DS2 spends a bit more, but keeps to a budget. (i.e., analyzed the cost of renting every year vs. buying new ski equipment for the school's Ski Club -- something he's been doing long enough to know it's something he intends to continue. He bought used ski equipment for the same price as one year's worth of rentals. "Why should I buy new stuff?")</p>

<p>DH got a better merit/FA deal from the Ivy he attended than his in-state safety, so we are convinced it's worth it to look beyond in-state options.</p>

<p>As I have mentioned before, we have family friends whose D will be val, wonderful stats, unusual and very interesting ECs and awards, and she will probably wind up at the community college this fall -- all because they can't sit down and have an honest conversation about money. She and DS have been intellectual soul mates since birth, and I find this a very hard pill to swallow.</p>

<p>Parents need to set aside their pride and be honest with their kids. The kids can handle it -- they just need to know where the boundaries are (gee, doesn't this sound like a parenting lecture?). It's not a sign of bad parenting if you can't pay $50K/year for a college -- life happens. However -- bait and switch is not fair. (Pardon my bitter inner 17 year old -- she's coming out to sermonize.)</p>

<p>My parents played the "we'll help pay for college" game -- right until they dropped me off at the dorm. Then I found out there would be no more $$ from home other than the $50 I was handed. Got myself a job within 24 hours and then begged the Bursar's office to pay out my external scholarship over two quarters instead of three so I would have time to save enough and get on my feet. It was all about survival, not success, from Day One. I played the game by the rules, and then the rules changed. It makes me particularly sensitive to the kids who were operating on the assumption that parents were being honest.</p>

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<p>I think the point that sometimes kids have selective deafness is a good one. Two small anecdotes from friends this year: one kid has been told repeatedly what his parents can do (which is generous but not $50k per year) and has said to my daughter that it doesn't matter because when the parents say because when he has his admission they'll pay because they've always given him what he wants. He has no comprehension that a college education isn't comparable to a North Face jacket. The second anecdote makes me very sad. Dear, dear friends have a kid who has done well in school (2100 SAT, excellent grades) and so has applied to ONLY MIT, Caltech and two other super-duper schools. He is a respectable but not outstanding candidate because he has zero ECs of any type and has no passion, is also not too highly ranked also no hook. He could get into those schools, but I don't think it's a sure bet and certainly not a candidate for merit aid anywhere (they don't qualify for need-based. These wonderful people sincerely believe that these schools are going to offer this young man a full ride because in their frame of reference, he's a top candidate nationally. I don't think he is, and I could see either of two scenarios one in which there is no acceptance at all and another where there is no financial aid given. They are not in a position to pay full freight.</p>

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<p>I agree that the frugality lessons can backfire a bit. I had to BEG son to get a credit card when he was starting to travel independently, and then it took 6 months to convince him. But, on balance, if I had to err, I'm glad it was in that direction, especially now that he is surrounded by students with jaw-dropping means.</p>

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<p>Oh, ZM, it must feel like you are watching a train wreck about to happen.</p>

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<p>"Oh, ZM, it must feel like you are watching a train wreck about to happen."</p>

<p>I keep telling myself that things have to turn out the way they expect. MIT would surely give money to a white, unhooked geek somewhere in the middle (or lower) of their applicant pool, right?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
You never know what school will come through with what kind of aid for your kid.<a href="From%20Post%20#21">/quote</a></p>

<p>Wouldn't it be great if this were more predictable?? Expensive is hard enough, but unpredictable is awful.</p>

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<p>Counting Down - I love your phrase - "bait and switch." That is what I thought I saw happening with one kid last year and I felt so bad for him. Now, to be fair, I wasn't in their home as they had conversations, so I only know what I watched unfold. I also get frustrated when parents tell kids they "will help" with college - it is just not specific enough. As Very Happy highlighted - we don't know what schools will offer, so at the very least we need to let our kids know what we are willing to do.</p>

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<p>For me, it's more like Talk to your husband! I've been watching friends with older kids go through college admissions for years, so I've been well-acquainted with how the game and the finances have changed over the decades. H, on the other hand, doesn't yet fully appreciate that finances will be an issue. Our eldest is in 9th grade, so I do have time to educate the spouse. I told him what our EFC would be including nothing but D's college savings and our income--not the house or other savings. H was stunned, which I suppose is the first step in dealing with grief, lol. He had the same reaction I first had when running the calculator--is that for all four years, or just for one?</p>

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<p>We had the financial talk with our D from the start telling her we will cover up to a certain amount per year and then remainder she would have to make up in loans. If she decides to stay instate - we can 100% foot the bill. She limited her search to mainly state (both in and out of state) schools due to cost. She did look at some private schools but not very aggressively due to costs. So far she's been accepted at three schools - the private one offered her a $12,500 a year scholarship, the out of state $2000 a year. Her stats were matches for these schools - so she was pleasantly surprised. So I agree with other posters - have the discussion tell your child what you are willing to pay before you start looking at schools - but don't limit to just looking at your in state school, etc. as there are some private schools or out of state schools that may offer scholarship to make it the same cost as your in state school (or more reasonable).</p>

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<p>Counting Down: I agree that the last minute----OOPS, you're on your own---is a bait and switch and I think that some of it has to do with parents keeping themselves in the dark about college costs and not wanting to look deep inside to determine their willingness, as well as ability, to fund this.</p>

<p>Unlike some posters, I do not have a problem with parents placing limits on their financial commitment to college, even if they can "afford" to pay whatever it costs. BUT, depending on the parents' willingness and/or ability to fund it, the discussions need to start at a time that the child can plan accordingly. </p>

<p>I am not surprised that you still have a bitter memory of getting "tooled" by your parents late in the game.</p>

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<p>I wrote down what expenses we would pay for- what I expected D to cover- because her ears tend to close when I open my mouth.
So I wanted her to see in black and white- what the parameters were.
I also included a bit about 100% need schools and the amount of loans I didn't think she should go over. ( as well as a blurb about schools that offer grants freshman year- but not for subsequent years- sort of a financial aid course in 500 words or less)</p>

<p>Its hard because we paid EFC for her sister- but now that her sister isn't a dependent anymore- our EFC is higher ( and we are still paying the loans that we borrowed to meet EFC)
With D #2, who is probably not going to be attending a 100% need met school, but is also not likely to get a merit award ( although you never know- she does have many strenghts)- we are bracing for reality.</p>

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<p>Counting Down: Your story is familiar to me. As a CA kid at a UC campus who started college in the year before proposition 13, I had a really nice FA package my first year. Knowing that, my parents dropped me off waved good-bye and left me with about 10 dollars in my pocket, no towels and no comforter for my bed. I had money in the FA office for which I had to stand in line for hours three days later, I had scholarship checks from back home but no cash and no bank account...it was the most anxious I had ever been and it took about a week to get it all organized.</p>

<p>The next year prop 13 hit and my financial aid took a severe hit. I started getting loans then and took the maximum loan amount every quarter that followed. My parents still claim they "put me through school." but really the only support they provided was the occaisional 20 my mom would stick in a letter to me. I managed, but I sure wish someone would have guided me and been straight with me about what they would be willing to payy from the outset!</p>

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<p>I also think it is sad that some parents can be knowingly short-sighted, or just may not be aware of the process. The first year offers often change considerably for the second year. Most financial aid people will warn you about that. Even if you receive a merit scholarship - read the fine print - some are not renewable for four years - most have conditions that need to be met by the student. Pay attention to the student retention rate as well - a low rate of retention could possibly mean, among other things, that students receive money to matriculate - but the picture changes for subsequent years. We were open and honest with our D - first to go through this process. She didn't apply ED anywhere because she wanted to have choices, both academically and financially. We're going to lay everything out on the table and examine each with a fine-tooth comb before making a decision.</p>

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<p>I guess I'm just preaching to the choir; maybe these kids' parents are just oblivious to the fact that their highly qualified student has just applied to an extremely selective school ED, filled out all forms and financial aid forms without any discussion with them whatsoever, perhaps paid the app fee themselves, signed the ED binding agreement and then one day in December: "...What, sweetheart? You got into Dartmouth? Great! A deposit? Oh, honey, we can't afford that! Next thing you know you'll be expecting us to pay for the whole thing!"</p>

<p>I actually don't know many people like that in real life, most kids in my school district kind of know chances are they will either go to a private and pay a lot or go to a public and pay less. Although I do have neighbors who will say, "Yes, Joey is going to apply to the University of Other State ; my sister lives in Other State so he can use her address to get in and to pay in-state tuition."</p>

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<p>SlitheyTove said:</p>

<p>
[quote]
For me, it's more like Talk to your husband!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This need to "hash it out early, and above-board" with your child and the other parent gains possibily greater importance when there has been a divorce and no provision was made for college in the divorce decree. And even where the issue was raised in the decree, unless the fine details of the selection of school and payment of costs issues have been set out in the decree, there can be "tension" unless the communication is there.</p>

<p>I can tell you that it can work so it is a WIN, WIM WIN situation for the 3 people involved but there must be clean (and early in the HS years) communication and discussions about all this.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
We're going to lay everything out on the table and examine each with a fine-tooth comb before making a decision.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>very wise. Also, it's a very good idea to check out the 4-year graduation rate for the program your student is considering. Adding another year can be a killer. One of son's more economical possibilities became pretty expensive when we realized that the average time to get a degree in his major was 5 years.</p>