<p>How do most professors feel about students who skip courses? And is there a substantial amount of very intelligent students who skip? I know that such is the case at Caltech (happyentropy reported to the abysmal attendance of the Abstract Algebra course; Ben Golub did not deny it), but at other universities, where the intelligent students are more likely to be isolated and alone (and less independent/distrust ful of authority in general), it seems that only a small number of them regularly skip courses.</p>
<p>I know a professor in particular, who made a pop quiz to ensure that students who skipped would be penalized. But a quarter later, when I was waiting for his office hours, I noticed that he was starting to become open to the idea of students skipping courses - merely due to the case that he knew a student who never came to class and still aced all the quizzes.</p>
<p>And have any of you actually done research with a professor, while simultaneously taking a course from him through which he was fully aware that you skipped his lectures?</p>
<p>I know that professor attitudes differ quite a lot on this issue. But I'd like to know the scope of their tolerance towards such actions in general. Do professors also seem to be more receptive towards lecture hall course-skipping than seminar-course skipping? Looking at the syllabi for some courses are some other universities - the professors strongly discourage course skipping (one example was Steven Pinker's). One especially common attitude is when professors refuse to post notes online with the intended purpose of getting students to come to class.</p>
<p>And do professor attitudes in this depend on department? I'd think that most math/science professors are more tolerant towards it (since it's already well known in such departments that one learns by "doing"). I know a few professors who explicitly acknowledged that their lectures were pretty much pointless (and who sucked at their teaching, incidentally :p). From the impressions I got from the few non-math/science classes I took, the professors had pretty strong anti-course-skipping attitudes, and took explicit actions to discourage it.</p>
<p>But I think it also depends on the student body of the class that takes the course. The research (research caters towards the average student body) indicates that those who skip classes do have lower GPAs and test scores on average than those who do not skip. That's because most people who skip courses do not care about learning (and the professors know this fully). But the research doesn't take a closer look at the course skipping behavior of those with say, strong desires to learn (who may have different motives in skipping, such as an inherent disposition to self-study everything, rather than to accept things as taught - a pattern that often emerges from negative experiences with teaching in grade school [this often corrects itself since students know that college-level teaching is catered towards more enthusiastic students, but even then, some of those students have become quite independent], or a different learning style)</p>
<h1>But professors in upper-level courses may be more receptive to course-skipping, since it occurs among those who are motivated, but more independent (since the least motivated have been "selected out").</h1>
<p>And which departments are generally most liberal towards class-skipping [especially among the math/science departments?]</p>
<p>Yeah it really depends. In a large lecture hall, th eprof won't notice unless you usually sit in the front and you talk to him. I was sick a lot last semester so I often <em>skipped</em> my lecture, but I talked to the professor and sat int he front so he noticed when I was absent. I always went to recitation though and did well in the class...it's not that I wa slacking....too much...lol. But I just was sick and had some issues that term. I still talk to that prof....he know I wasn't a bad student. </p>
<p>In smaller classes, it's better ot make every effort to get to class everyday because even if the prof does not formally take attendence, they will probably take note of the fact that you weren't there everyday. None of my profs take attendence but they notice when you are not there and it will affect your grade. I guess it all depends though.</p>
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In smaller classes, it's better ot make every effort to get to class everyday because even if the prof does not formally take attendence, they will probably take note of the fact that you weren't there everyday. None of my profs take attendence but they notice when you are not there and it will affect your grade. I guess it all depends though.
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<p>Yeah, my question was more to the point of - does the professor really care that much about it? [especially with respect to students who choose to skip, because they don't feel that they learn well from lectures] It could be say, related to the professor's experience with his own previous courses, as well as his receptive-ness to divergent learning styles. One thing though, is that a lot of math professors aren't that receptive to divergent learning styles as much as educational psychologists are - since most learning styles will do poorly in math. But to balance that out - math learning styles are usually more independent than social science ones - and math types tend to disdain formality</p>
<p>Well, in large lecture courses, most of the time the profs won't notice. But for classes in your major... well, put it this way. When you apply for internships/REUs/grad school, you're going to need 3 <em>really</em> enthusiastic recommendations from 3 different professors preferably in your area of study or a closely related area.</p>
<p>Do you want one of those professors to recall you as the kid who never came to class and then have them write generic (actually harmful in a rec) things like "so and so is a good student. Received an A in my course." Not so great. It's like the old standby. You don't want a prof to go on and on in a rec about how you're a "diligent student" and a "hard worker" because the subtext is that you work hard to get your grades but you're not that smart.</p>
<p>Anyway, it's kinda hard to answer this sort of question because it's going to depend on the prof, the class the prof is teaching, the school you are at, etc. There are no easy stereotypes.</p>
<p>Well, yeah, but recommendations almost always come from research, not coursework. The logic is simple: get a professor to understand you well, and that professor can recommend you to other professors/etc. Now, of course, 3 professors. It's fair to say that you'll have experience with at least 2 profs; a third prof shouldn't be that difficult [and one can opt for going to class hours without going to class - how do profs feel about that? certainly some dislike it - but it's conceivable others may be open to it]</p>
<p>Of course stereotypes may not work well here - but what of the distribution of professor attitudes?</p>
<p>It's not that easy to find 3 separate professors that you'll have done research with by the time you graduate (unless you're planning on taking a couple years off). To get anything worthwhile done, it's going to take at least a year (biology/chemistry for example). That doesn't leave you much time to do research with 3 professors.</p>
<p>I had one rec from my PI, and two from professors who taught classes and I knew well from other activities as well.</p>
<p>Oh, you certainly have a point there [so you're implying that REU/summer research isn't that worthwhile?]. You said that 3 recs are needed for REUs - but I know of quite a few that require less. UWashington's Physics and Math REUs, frex, only need 2</p>
<p>But certainly, one can still skip those classes and just go for office hours [and still get to know the professor well. I suppose the best approach is to go to office hours, and tell the professor that you prefer self-study and don't learn well from lectures. The response should then determine future behavior].</p>
<p>If you come off well in office hours, there's no reason skipping the lectures should have any major effect on a professor's opinion of you. If the issue came up, I would take it as a good sign that the professor is actually looking for you, and as long as you are doing well, they shouldn't be upset.</p>
<p>Getting a paper done in a summer/3 months (really less depending on the timing of the program vs your school's schedule) is a matter of luck + the field you're in + your work, but in my opinion the last of those is a smaller contribution. In bio or chemistry where you're doing lab work, it's very very very unlikely unless you were lucky enough to get a project that is near completion or something. Things simply take time to grow and three months isn't long enough to plan, setup, do experiments, analyze data, write up, and publish--especially not if you're working with cells where you might take two weeks just to get enough to do an experiment with!</p>
<p>In math it's also a lot of luck and a combination of other things. If your advisor has a specific idea he wants you to pursue and it works out so that you actually prove something, then yeah that's great. But realistically speaking, you're probably (in the probabilistic sense) not going to get a paper out of a single summer.</p>
<p>I just felt that the REUs/internships I did were great experiences for me and good to talk about when I was writing my statement of purposes, but I didn't produce enough to feel that the REU professor's rec would be stronger or better than the ones I had at my university. </p>
<p>Rumor has it on the street that for (pure) math, research isn't actually that critical (unless you've got an actual published paper or more) to your application the way it is for the sciences. Reference:
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Mathematicians-Survival-Guide-Graduate-Development/dp/082183455X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7488924-0257614?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173758856&sr=8-1%5B/url%5D">http://www.amazon.com/Mathematicians-Survival-Guide-Graduate-Development/dp/082183455X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7488924-0257614?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173758856&sr=8-1</a></p>
<p>Anyway, back to the original topic... I personally wouldn't go into a class with the intention of never attending lecture. I'd rather pick a different class with more interesting lectures/better professor instead of paying money to the university for a course I'm essentially not taking advantage of. </p>
<p>Because if you don't go to class, then really you could just as easily buy the textbooks, read them yourself, and then go to the professor's office hours to chat with her/him.</p>
<p>But again, that's just my personal opinion.</p>
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Anyway, back to the original topic... I personally wouldn't go into a class with the intention of never attending lecture. I'd rather pick a different class with more interesting lectures/better professor instead of paying money to the university for a course I'm essentially not taking advantage of.</p>
<p>Because if you don't go to class, then really you could just as easily buy the textbooks, read them yourself, and then go to the professor's office hours to chat with her/him.
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<p>Unless the class is required.</p>
<p>Good point. Required classes are the definite exception.</p>
<p>Why would you want to skip classes? It's one thing if something comes up, but it sounds as though you are actively planning it. That's silly. As a future prof, I'd be ****ed, and the profs I know feel the same.</p>
<p>As for getting to know a prof during office hours but not attending class, that's even sillier. Why would a prof look kindly on a student that doesn't attend class? Those classes are prepped extensively by these profs - when you blow it off, it's disrespectful. Office hours don't make up for that.</p>
<p>As far as LORs are concerned, a prof cannot recommend you to other profs for letters. You have to earn those letters yourself. I suggest you not only attend class, but that you actively participate.</p>
<p>well, i know for a fact that berkeley upper div physics classes dwindle after 1st couple of weeks. unless prof's have some incredible insights on the subject, there isn't a point to go to classes since everything can be read. i personally skipped a lot of classes because i dont like to get up early, and most early classes are too slow for me. i took classes as more of a motivation to study the areas that i normally don't want to touch. i usually read a few review paper before exams and try to absorb everything i read during exams. it might hurt my grades a little since prof might stress on details that i ignore, but i feel that i learn a lot more this way than pure memorization of lecture notes. plus i dont feel that this way really hurts my chance of getting good rec's because i tend to grill prof when im at lecture (since that's probably something i am into and read a lot about) and they know that i am a good slacker. (and yeah i didn't skip classes to do nothing, i actually spent these time at lab). so i think it doesnt really matter how many classes you skip. just be on top of your thing if you do skip classes.</p>
<p>"well, i know for a fact that berkeley upper div physics classes dwindle after 1st couple of weeks. unless prof's have some incredible insights on the subject, there isn't a point to go to classes since everything can be read"</p>
<p>You mean your professors seriously don't teach anything that can't be read out of the book? If that's the case, why are you even going to college? Just buy the books and save your money as well as time!</p>
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Why would you want to skip classes? It's one thing if something comes up, but it sounds as though you are actively planning it. That's silly. As a future prof, I'd be ****ed, and the profs I know feel the same.</p>
<p>As for getting to know a prof during office hours but not attending class, that's even sillier. Why would a prof look kindly on a student that doesn't attend class? Those classes are prepped extensively by these profs - when you blow it off, it's disrespectful. Office hours don't make up for that.</p>
<p>As far as LORs are concerned, a prof cannot recommend you to other profs for letters. You have to earn those letters yourself. I suggest you not only attend class, but that you actively participate.
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<p>I honestly don't learn from lectures. It's a matter of learning style. I often have attention lapses, leaving me lost for the rest of the lecture (and then copying down notes that are useless because a textbook/MIT OCW has more comprehensive notes).</p>
<p>===</p>
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You mean your professors seriously don't teach anything that can't be read out of the book? If that's the case, why are you even going to college? Just buy the books and save your money as well as time!
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<p>I agree - college isn't really useful for anything other than research, for people with certain learning styles. The sad part is that an undergraduate major is a pre-requisite for graduate school (and that undergraduate major has required classes). Of course, years ago, most mathematicians and scientists were primarily self-taught, but education has now become institutionalized, bringing research along with that.</p>
<p>You go to college because you need the degree as a ticket to the upper echelons of society. This isn't always the case, but if you want to be an engineer, researcher or a consultant (or doctor or lawyer obviously), you need a degree. It's not really an option for these fields,</p>
<p>I guess I just feel that if your professors are not adding anything to the material taught in books, they're cheating you out of a much better education.</p>
<p>Well Professors have two functions - teaching and research. Many give preference to the latter over the former. So while, yes, it would be great to have inspirational professors in every course, I can definitely understand why that isn't possible. </p>
<p>Plus, there are courses you have to take but just don't want to. I doubt there are many people, even brilliant top PhD type students who like to learn about everything. If you can do well in such a course without going to lecture, then good for you. </p>
<p>If you count only lower level courses and basic upper div courses, I easily skipped 1/3rd to 3/5th of all the lectures. I just didn't find the material interesting and I wasn't learning much from being in class. That being said, I didn't go back and ask any of these people for recommendations for grad school, but if you have an interest in the professor's work and not the course itself, there's no reason you can't get a good rec from them if you go in to office hours. If someone has made it to the position of professor, they should know that following rigid schedules has nothing to do with being a creative and intelligent student, and they shouldn't dwell on the fact that you are skipping their lecture.</p>
<p>larationalist,</p>
<p>the better question is how much you can get out by just reading? college courses teach you to think independently and critically. nowadays, with internet, you can read up pretty much everything that you professor can possibility tell you. so it is possible not going to class. there is no cheating involved. seriously, what u try to get out of college is the way to learn all the stuff yourself, not a bag of "facts".</p>