teacher-student relationships (voice)

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I bet that subject line piqued your interest, didn't it?! But it's not as racy as it sounds. ;-)</p>

<p>Anyway, my Ds choir director, who had been her primary voice instructor for the last two years, said she had "outgrown him" and she needed to move on to a professional voice instructor. So "yay her!" for having loads of potential. </p>

<p>But so far, this teacher-student dynamic is confusing. She went to a teacher recommend by several people, and in four weeks has been called "stupid," "spacey," and given sarcastic replies when she's asked the teacher questions about techniques/instructions she is unfamiliar with. She leaves her lessons almost in tears and says she HATES this teacher as a person, but will do whatever it takes if it's going to get her to successful auditions. </p>

<p>My daughter is a near 4.0 student, NHS member, etc. who until now has always been told (that is to say, other people have gone out of their way to tell us) how mature she is - so this is really new to us. My question is this? Is this typical of voice teachers? Is this instructor trying to toughen her up? My D also says she bad mouths other students to her during her lesson - she wonders what the teacher says about her when she's not there. </p>

<p>I swear, I do not want to be accused of "helicopter parenting" - that's why I am discussing it here rather than getting involved. I just want to know if this is typical teacher-student interaction or if she should consider making a switch. I don't need "music is a tough business, she needs a thick skin" replies - I get that. I'm talking about what is considered acceptable behavior and what is considered unprofessional/abusive. </p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

2

<p>Run, do not walk, away from this toxic person.</p>

3

<p>Though I’m sure it is late if your daughter is a senior (?)- either way I would absolutely go elsewhere. Whatever the interaction is- your daughter and th teacher are clearly not a good fit. If your daughter is a senior perhaps she should go back to the choir director for lessons, regardless of her advancement. If she is younger, get a recommendation for someone new.</p>

4

<p>Abusing a HS student*** is not “standard operating procedure”. As stradmom points out
RUN AWAY. Do not let your D spend another minute with that person.</p>

<p>(***acceptable abuse comes later, in grad school :wink: )</p>

5

<p>Yikes! This does not sound like a productive student-teacher relationship. No teacher needs to insult his/her students in order to teach. This is highly unprofessional, and will only cause your daughter to be unable to relax and focus. I would run away from this teacher immediately before the damage becomes something your daughter has to spend months/years trying to undo. This teacher seems to be frighteningly insecure. My D LOVES her voice teachers (at her conservatory and here at home). They are both unfailingly supportive, demanding yet nurturing. Good luck to you and your D.</p>

6

<p>I agree with the previous responders. Nothing to add, but wanted to chime in, to add numbers to those who are validating your sense that this is not right.</p>

7

<p>My daughter’s best instrumental teachers are supportive, demanding and nurturing. There is no need for abuse.</p>

<p>My daughter is having difficulty finding an oboe teacher at a high level with the right personality and demeanor during lessons. I think this is in part due to how oboe was previously taught–in an abusive manner–so the students learned to behave that way. My daughter already has her own insecurities to deal with and doesn’t need to take on this type of behavior in a teacher.</p>

<p>Find someone else.</p>

8

<p>Between my two kids they have had 5 voice teachers and 2 piano teachers and all of them have been nurturing and supportive. In fact, my kids are still close with their former teachers (facebook, visits when D is home from college, attending opera together, etc.) One of D’s piano teachers was very stern and strict, but respectful at least. They did have negative experiences with gymnastics and dance coaches who were Russian - but quickly figured out that Russians yell a lot, but “off the floor” are quick to give hugs. So, no, your D’s experience is not normal and potentially damaging, IMO.</p>

9

<p>My daughter has always been with super nuturing teachers. I would never let her take a minute of abuse from anyone - now that is not to say that are not extremely demanding - but the two do not go hand in hand. If you are still uncertain just sit in on her lessons (the very next one!) and check it out yourself.</p>

10

<p>Change teachers now!! Son needed to change teachers during his junior year since his first teacher felt he couldn’t help him anymore. We went with a well known local teacher who thoroughly demoralized son so much that he was going to stop playing. Fortunately his high school orchestra teacher noticed the change, contacted us and recommended another teacher who brought son to a much higher level and still mentors him while he is at college. We were worried that changing so late in the game would have a negative effect but the new teacher encouraged and challenged son and opened many new doors in the short period of time that he had to get son ready for college auditions.
You shouldn’t pay for your child to be humiliated and a good teacher makes a world of difference.</p>

11

<p>The voice teacher’s behavior is not the norm, is not professional, and is not acceptable. Voice, even more so than other instruments, is dependent on the musician’s psychological well-being, so I certainly agree that lessons should stop immediately. </p>

<p>As thrifty as I am, I would take the loss for any prepaid lessons or cancellation penalty for terminating without adequate notice. </p>

<p>Even if a student is the opposite of intellectually gifted, no private voice teacher should ever draw attention to their cognitive deficit: students grow and learn by being nurtured and encouraged; demeaning them destroys not only their confidence, but also their capacity to learn. </p>

<p>Talking about other students in a negative manner during the lesson is highly unprofessional, breeds an environment of fear and mistrust, and speaks of an immaturity and insecurity which are too great to overcome any strengths the person might have as a teacher.</p>

<p>You are not helicoptoring at all; you are parenting in a judicious way.</p>

12

<p>I will chime in too. Before signing on with a teacher you should have a sample lesson. It is good for both parties to see if they can work together. DD went from her middle school choir director to a college professor for a voice teacher as a sophomore in HS. We knew the transition might be hard so we arranged for a trial period. </p>

<p>This teacher was imposing. He sat the entire lesson behind the piano so as not to be so intimidating (was was a big 6’4"). He was know to be demanding and not tolerant of lack of preparation so DD was a little nervous starting with him. But he let me sit in on the first several lessons until they had a good working relationship. Then I sat downstairs to wait for her until she could drive herself. I could hear everything going on. He was very demanding, and sometimes she would almost be in tears from frustration, but never was he demeaning. He was wonderful and in the end she is still in touch with him. </p>

<p>If you hesitate to leave the teacher now, request a chance to sit in on the lesson or in the next room. Listen to how they communicate then talk to you DD to see how she perceived what you heard. Helping her learn to negotiate these things is not being “too helicopter”, it is assessing the situation so you can teach her how to manage it. Does she need to learn how to express her needs so a teacher can understand them? DD had to learn that. </p>

<p>If you cannot resolve it or indeed he is demeaning instead of strict, run. Find a teacher that can communicate without resorting to childish behavior. There are enough of them out there that you can find a better fit for your DD. And that is all you really need to tell him if you leave. That there was not really a good fit.</p>

13

<p>Another thought: we habitually record lessons with a little voice recorder. This enables the student to refer back to a part of the lesson later in the week if necessary. It also allows parents to listen to the lesson and pick up music and mark dates on the calendar. In this case I guess you might use it to gauge the mood of the lesson, as you are not sitting in.</p>

<p>But I agree with everyone else – it doesn’t matter how talented this voice teacher is, cruelty to your D and unprofessionally talking about students behind their backs is NEVER ok. There are ways to “toughen up” a student that are far more respectful. Good luck!</p>

14

<p>Never go back to this teacher! Your daughter is not the only student that has had such an experience. I’ve worked with a couple teachers that were similar - they made me hate singing. My voice teacher is one of my favorite people ever, and we have a very good relationship. I look forward to working with him every week, we communicate through email, and he can give me firm criticism, and still joke with me. He makes my responsibilities clear, but I never ever leave a lesson in tears. I found my teacher through the reference of a local classical singer. The school choir teacher can normally also give references. Many teachers advertise on online directories, or you can try and call local community or youth theatres about recommendations, because they normally have some. Also, local universities or music schools. If you look at state finalists for NATS or solo and ensemble competitions, you will often see repeats of teachers for the top students, so you could try and get in contact with these teachers too. There is no reason to settle for a disrespectful teacher. I hope your daughter finds a new teacher that works well with her!</p>

15

<p>Like some others mentioned, my son has had several trumpet and piano teachers and they have ALL been supportive and encouraging and great.</p>

<p>I’m with everyone else - I think I would change teachers today.</p>

<p>That said, my son’s college trumpet teacher is VERY hard and very demanding. After the first lesson he almost left in tears, my son even considered changing majors. Now, half way through his first college term, he realizes that he is so demanding only because he desires his students to be the best, and my son understands that he absolutely has to put in the hours of practice, and to practice what he has been instructed to practice, and as long as he does that, he will be fine. The professor is the type of person who will rarely give a straight forward complement, yet the students always know were they stand because he will be very quick to tell a student they they arn’t living up to his expectations. Basically, as long as he isn’t saying “you suck” they know that they are doing OK. He will occasionally give a sideways complement, like he once checked up on students in the practice rooms, found my son, knocked on the door, checked to make sure he was practicing with a metronome (he was thank God), and then said “I can tell you have been practicing because there is green stuff growing in your instrument” - my son took that as an acknowlegement that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. My son asked a student who is near completion of his performance degree if the professor ever let up, the senior student told him “no” and then explained that the professor once “yelled” at him for the duration of the hour private lesson, then at the end said “this is the best you ever played, I just wanted to try yelling at you to see if it would make a difference”. Anyhow, once my son realized that was just his professors personality, he accepted it and everything is good.</p>

<p>But there is a difference between being “difficult” and just being a jerk. Your student’s teacher sounds like a jerk, and especially if he/she won’t give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question, I think I would be finding a new teacher.</p>

16

<p>Thank you all for your replies. I am glad it’s not just me seeing a red flag. My D talked to another student of this teacher and he said that the teacher treats him the same way - must be her “style.” What I don’t get is why so many people recommended we call her, assumed this community is fairly close and word would get around if a teacher had an abusive/abrasive style. The worst part is this teacher is highly involved with NATS and is well known in our area. Also, it elevates the knowledge that choosing a college instructor is just as important as what college she chooses. Thanks again - we would be lost with you guys!</p>

17

<p>I don’t get it either K8sdad. What I’ve observed is that for some reason, people seem to put up with stuff in private fine arts teacher that they wouldn’t in an academic setting. How many people would put up with a HS math, english, science teacher, etc with this kind of behavior?</p>

18

<p>There are some fairly well known voice teachers who have reputations of being very unpleasant and insulting. Amazingly, some singers stick it out and put up with the abuse. Considering that one of the primary vocal functions is emotional expression, it is difficult to understand how the voice can function when the singer is upset…certain the response can not be typical of good vocal health. For all kinds of reasons, psychological, pedagogical, and physiological, it is important to avoid personal abuse. Good luck to your daughter. She will emerge stronger, and never again will she allow anyone to treat her poorly in the studio.</p>

19

<p>k8s-
What you are describing is not unfortunately all that uncommon in music, on the instrumental side I have heard of more then a few teachers like that. As to why people still recommend the teacher in question, in some cases it is because, despite having some sort of emotional issues, the teacher in question actually gets results (and odds are, he/she had a teacher that did the same thing), and therefore since the results fit, you have to ‘grin and bear it’ in their eyes. As far as people not telling the truth, if said teacher has prestige, as a performer or whatever, people are often afraid it will come back on them, and with the nasty sam type of teacher, it doesn’t take a lot of leaps of logic to figure out that a disagreeable person would be vindictive.</p>

<p>Some other people frankly also don’t know better, they have the common perception that all artists are ‘temperamental’ i.e on the borderline of being insane, all the common mythos that somehow artistic=eccentric or nuts, and think about all the movies with the temperamental artist as teacher (I have heard stories about Maria Callas doing masterclasses and absolutely ripping students apart, viciously so). Their basic take IME is ‘grin and bear it, that is what you get working with a genius’ and so forth. </p>

<p>In terms of your D’s situation, it can kind of come down to a decision over whether whatever she is gaining (if anything) is worth the emotional turmoil. Without telling anyone to grin and bear it (that has to be one of dumbest things anyone could ever say), if this is a short term situation i.e for this year until someone graduates, and they are in fact progressing, someone could choose to stay, knowing it was short term and that perhaps finding another teacher of similar caliber might be impossible…obviously, if someone is not learning, because of the abuse or otherwise, then it would be a lot easier to move on IMO.</p>

<p>I wish music teaching had better controls to weed people out, but I suspect because it is a small world, and because people unfortunately accept this as ‘part of the game’, it does go on. I wish your D well, it sounds like this teacher is toxic enough that she may want to find another teacher, I am sure she can find someone who is demanding but a bit more human.</p>

20

<p>I have heard similar stories about some voice teachers, and yes, students still seek out these teachers because they have had some success in getting students to where they want to be. Of course, other more nurturing teachers may have had the same success with these students. An acquaintance of my daughter works with and praises a voice teacher who is known for yelling and cursing and has even been accused of throwing things at students.</p>