Teachers keep trying to move D down in math

<p>When D started HS (2009) we requested she be placed in Honors Geometry. She struggled, but she survived with grades in low 80's with an 86 on the Geometry Regents. Her teacher recommended her for Regular Algebra and Trig. We had her placed in Honors Algebra and Trig. Again she struggled, but she can do it if she puts in an effort, and ended up with an 83 on the A/T Regents. The A/T teacher recommended her for Regular Precalc. We had her placed in Honors Pre-calculus. </p>

<p>On meet-the-teacher night I mentioned to the math teacher that she is capable, but she has to be pushed to do it. The first quarter she got an 89, which is good for her. Right now she has an 84 for this quarter, and once again her teacher is recommending her for Regular Calculus next year. This time, apparently they have to have the teacher's rec in order to get into AP Calculus (AB), although the prerequisite in the catalog is successful completion of Pre-calculus A.</p>

<p>I am debating whether to continue the fight and insist she be allowed to try AP Calculus (which she wants to do). The alternatives would be AP Statistics, or just Regular Calculus.</p>

<p>I’m not sure I would have pushed earlier…but AP Calculus A/B is one semester of college calc taught over a full K-12 school year (or as full as your school year is before May.) Either way, a whole lot more teaching hours than your daughter would have taking the course in college, with the fringe benefits of having the same teacher every day (and not a first-year graduate student leading sections) and a school-provided textbook.</p>

<p>This is one course that I think that it makes a ton of sense for kids who aren’t fabulously gifted in math to take in high school while there is still a lot of support available. </p>

<p>I would not advise Calculus BC.</p>

<p>(Statistics is probably more useful than calculus, at least for those not going into engineering or physics, but I rarely hear of a kid cratering on college stats classes, and hearing about kids cratering on college calculus classes is pretty common.)</p>

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The problem was that there was only one track which would give the opportunity to even attempt AP Calculus, which was through the honors courses. Also, since she is capable, I din’t want her taking the easy route out and just doing whatever is easiest.</p>

<p>What is the motivation for having her take AP Calculus? Is it wanting to challenge herself with a difficult curriculum, or being able to place out of taking a required math course in college?</p>

<p>I know several not-math-oriented hs students who took AP Stats instead of AP Calc and did well in the course.</p>

<p>I strongly believe in taking AP Calculus in high school. Whether you are strong in math or not, it is much easier to learn beginning Calculus at a slower pace and with more attention from teachers. Often the best teacher are in the AP courses. I also believe college admission look for it on transcripts as one of the harder AP classes. Whether it is to challenge herself or to place out, it gives her options for both college choice and major. Congrats to you xaniamom for sticking to your guns and challenging the teachers and your daughter.</p>

<p>I’m taking Calc AB right now and I don’t regret taking it. I had struggled some with Geometry and Precalc with Bs, but I had As in Algebra II. I’m actually maintaining a mid to low B in Calc right now and with some effort, an A could be possible for me.
I actually find myself enjoying calculus so even though I don’t have an A in the class, the experience of taking it right now in HS is worth it. I’ll probably have to take it again in college for pre-med so I’m glad that I chose calc over stats.</p>

<p>My D (college senior) did what the OP’s D has done. She worked mightily to stay on the honors math track when she had very little natural math talent. She typically earned a B+ in honors classes (with some dips down lower midquarter most times, but she always rallied). She could have taken AP Calculus as a senior, but decided to take AP Statistics instead. Her college major was already decided (political science, she will graduate from college Phi Beta Kappa this spring), and she knew that calculus was not something she would have to take in college.</p>

<p>I would think this decision might partly ride on what the OP’s D wants to major in. Humanities majors don’t really need calc. I personally took it in college, and have never used it a day in my life since I finished the course. Many majors and professions do need it, of course. But not all.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure I understand the point.</p>

<p>My daughter has a degree in biomolecular engineering with a second major in biology. Somehow she managed to get these two degrees on the four year plan without taking ANY calculus in high school. Her highest math course was honors precalc…and that was the first honors math class she had ever been able to take at her high school. She was a VERY strong math student but her high school was small and there were scheduling problems every year. We chose NOT to allow her to accelerate in math as in grade eight, the first family in the school history to not accept this acceleration.</p>

<p>DH, an engineer, felt that the foundations of math were much too important to have. He didn’t see the point in rushing when the end goal was to have the material mastered. PLUS he knew that she would have to take calculus in college as an engineering major (most college engineering majors have to take this in college even IF they took it in high school).</p>

<p>This OP says his kid is capable but needs to really work to get her grades in the 80’s. I’m not sure I would agree that continuing the push is essential.</p>

<p>I don’t understand the pushing at all. Does the daughter want to pursue a major that requires a lot of math?</p>

<p>Two of my kids did fine with college admissions without taking honors math at all. One did take AP stats. </p>

<p>My first, on the other hand, is a computer science major and was really glad he did honors and AP math and science.</p>

<p>The idea that she is capable but needs to put in a lot of effort, which results in low 80’s, may actually be a source of stress. If she really want to take the honors and AP path, and enjoys it, fine, but if she wants to take it to please you, or because she has been told it is necessary to get into a good college, I would help her change course.</p>

<p>She does not have superior math aptitude, perhaps. Who knows what she might get into or accomplish in other areas if she did not have to spend so much time on math.</p>

<p>I really don’t understand the pushing, either. My son was good in math, but had gotten convinced in middle school by one bad teacher that he was not. He decided to take regular calculus as a high school senior and APs in courses he enjoyed more- history, English etc. At his boarding school students did NOT take a full slate of APs. The classes were really difficult. He did fine in college with college math and graduated cum laude from Penn.</p>

<p>My son’s school requires students to get As to continue in the top level of math. It really stinks for kids like mine who are happy to skate by with a B and put in minimal effort. We pushed freshman year because we thought he would be bored to tears taking algebra one over, but he did not perform at the level required so the next year he was not in the honors class any longer.</p>

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<p>What is “Regular Calculus”? AP Calculus AB is about a semester’s worth of college calculus material, so it should be suitable for students who need a gentle introduction to calculus if they complete precalculus before senior year. AP Calculus BC would be appropriate for the top math students who complete precalculus before senior year, as that would more closely approximate a full year college calculus course.</p>

<p>AP Statistics approximates a one semester low level introductory statistics course in college.</p>

<p>What subject(s) is she likely to major in?</p>

<p>Heavy math: math, statistics, physics, engineering, computer science, maybe economics
Light math: biology, business, maybe economics
No math (beyond precalculus): humanities, most other social studies</p>

<p>However, statistics is commonly used in most fields except the humanities, though some majors may require a calculus-based course, or have a major specific course (e.g. “quantitative methods in political science”).</p>

<p>My son’s school offers calculus that is not AP as did my daughter’s. It does not teach to the AP test. The AP AB seems to cover one semester of college calculus and the BC course covers the year of college calculus.</p>

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She has no idea what she wants to major in, although probably not math or engineering.

She is capable but does not put in as much effort as she should in order to excel, IMHO.

She doesn’t particularly like math (“boring”), and doesn’t spend the time it would take to really do well. More like she puts in a modest effort and struggles as a result, so she needs to be pushed. </p>

<p>S followed the same track at his HS (likes math better than she does), got a 5 on the AP, and probably will not have to take any math classes at college if he stays on his current major (philosophy…or psychology…or sociology…). </p>

<p>Right now, D maybe sees this as her opportunity to do likewise. Either she has to take another year of math AND at least a semester of college math, or she takes AP Calc and it’s over.</p>

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I think this is really unfortunate. A student with B grades is still getting by at better than the average. If colleges only allowed the A students to continue on the track they are on they wouldn’t have many students getting past freshman year.

Here is the catalog description:
*This course is designed for students who have successfully completed Pre–Calculus R or Pre–Calculus A and do not wish to take AP Calculus. It is strongly recommended that college-bound students study mathematics every year that they are in high school. Calculus 5R is basically a first semester college calculus course introducing basic concepts of differential and integral calculus, but students will not receive college credit. The student should then be very successful in an initial college calculus course. A non-calculus study of sequences and series is also included. *</p>

<p>Your description says that it is recommended that college bound students take math all four years of high school. Nowhere does it say that it must be honors or AP…or must include calculus.</p>

<p>Your daughter is not your son. You say he has a better aptitude for math.</p>

<p>True story…my son took NO MATH his senior year of high school. His major required NO MATH in college.</p>

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<p>If that is what it is, it looks like calculus AB without the AP test. That is, unless they are emulating a first semester “calculus for business majors” type of course (less rigorous than the usual college calculus course).</p>

<p>If it is the same as the calculus AB course, could it be that this is the school’s way of encouraging only what it sees as the top students to take the AP test, in order the make the “average score on AP tests” look better in the school profile?</p>

<p>I think you should stop pushing. Let your daughter decide and then advocate for herself if she wants this.</p>

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<p>Not in an honors class. Most kids getting below a B drop down and so a low B is close to the bottom of the class. In our HS, you cannot stay in Honors if you are below a B. In DS’s college Honors math class, all students who got below the average on a midterm were encouraged to drop down to regular class. There’s a difference between an Honors class and a regular class. There is not a normal distribution of grades in an Honors class.</p>

<p>As to how it might not be in her best interest to stay in a class she is getting a low B in, please watch Mr. Khan’s TED talk. He speaks to this problem at about 8.15 mark in the video.</p>

<p>[Salman</a> Khan talk at TED 2011 (from ted.com) - YouTube](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM95HHI4gLk]Salman”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM95HHI4gLk)</p>

<p>It’s not a question of whether she is capable of learning the material, but rather whether she is learning it. And if she is not, being in an Honors class is not doing her any favors.</p>

<p>Thanks for the video clip, it is simple but illuminating, and kind of frightening.</p>

<p>I’m with snowdog on this. Unless she is motivated and interested, why accelerate math? Shouldn’t she be concentrating on areas which she may enjoy more and really shine in? At my s’s school it was very difficult to test out of alegebra in 9th grade. The theory was that these early math disciplines are the building blocks and unless you can master them cold, you aren’t ready to move on. I disagreed, but S tested one problem short of geometry so he started in algebra much to his and my disappointment. But lo and behold, it worked out great. He has gotten As in math ever since, and jumped to the math honors track in sophomore years. Aced his math SAT and just got accepted to an excellent school (Wesleyan, his first choice) even though he never made it to calc in high school (he did have plenty of other APs in English, science and history). Notably however, he is NOT interested in a field that would require heavy math… obviously if a kid wants to be an engineer, etc., he pretty much has to get to calc to be competitive in his college app.</p>