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Teachers won't pen letters for youths</p>
<p>Seniors are on their own this fall at College Park High School. After more than a year of contentious contract negotiations, teachers at the Pleasant Hill high school are refusing to write letters of recommendation for college-bound students.
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<p>Am I the only one who says "So what?" or even "Good!"? Is there anything more useless and time-consuming than the process of getting recommendations for college apps? They're mostly just puff pieces thrown together with little thought or effort, and the ones that aren't are probably due more to the teacher's character than the student's. I seriously doubt that they add much actual value to the colleges' application-screening process. I think it's a big waste of teacher's time which could be better used doing other things. Maybe we could talk the rest of the teachers into following suit, and strangle the practice at the source...</p>
<p>I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't pretend that my recs make that much a difference most of the time, but I know that they can. Once I received a call from an adcom at Stanford who wanted to clarify something in my rec before she went into a meeting with her colleagues. Also, I have colleagues who have received personalized, hand-written notes from adcoms thanking them for their thoughtful, detailed recs and telling them that the letters were very helpful in the process.</p>
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Maybe we could talk the rest of the teachers into following suit, and strangle the practice at the source...
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I don't think that would work. Colleges would just ask for peer recs; Dartmouth and Davidson already do.</p>
<p>I support the idea of teacher recs. Most teachers use one generic rec for each student, so it's not a big deal as long as you're properly appreciative and considerate enough to give them plenty of time. </p>
<p>One main reason I think recs will continue to be important is the student's personality. The stats, ecs, essays, etc. may make the applicant look like a great person- but a teacher's rec that says he's rude/prejudiced/arrogant/etc. is going to carry a lot of weight.</p>
<p>The day the Adcom met to review my DS's application to a pretty prestigous college - was the same day that mid-term grades came out - which were faxed to the adcom office that day!!! DS had a teacher who was less than stellar and who was trying to ''clean house'' in her class - her grade was wayyyyy out of the ball park for DS - this was also an AP class. Her unsavory actions could have actually kept DS from being considered at all for this school.</p>
<p>Welllll - During the adcom meeting - they actually called the GC and asked what the problem was - as the grade was so inconsistent with ALL other grades on the report - not what should have been expected - they were told the truth about the particular teacher and what was going on (long story) - the adcom asked if it were possible to submit another letter of recommendation on his behalf - and requested it to be faxed at that moment - which was done!!!!!.</p>
<p>We found out later that the GC was actually called back - and was informed of the outcome of the adcom's decision - unbeknownst to us. A week later we got incredible news!!!!! Early Decision!!!!! - So - yes - those letters of recommendation can certainly make or break an admission - especially if things are on the fence for some reason.</p>
<p>DS was an exceptional student - very well liked by his peers and teachers and administration - had excellent recs from others involved - teachers/GC/coach etc... - so when this odd situation occured - they actually took the time to find out what was going on.</p>
<p>I have great issue with any teacher who will not provide requested recommendations as appropriate - especialy under the circumstances of the OP. I am sure they realize the potential harm they will be causing to many students - who don't deserve their actions. Hey - parents pay their salaries and are entitled to certain expectations. The attitude addressed by the OP would sure to be unacceptable of professionals as far as I am concerned - and the students have a right to be very angry about this - as this could well effect their futures.</p>
<p>OOO and BTW - the teacher in question for us was investigated and found to be utilizing unethical practices and was removed as the teacher for that class!!!!!!! ahemmmmmmm</p>
<p>requesting amything else than numerical data from schools is a bad idea. </p>
<p>I have no doubt that the stories told in this thread are true and that the letters MADE a difference. And that is the big issue as it increases the chasm between the have and have not, between the popular students and less popular students, between the students who have moms and dads with time to volunteer or participate at school events. It also increases the gap between the families who have learned how to play the game ... or game the system. </p>
<p>People who participate in forums such as this one are obviously concerned about every angle of the process, and do reap some rewards from their involvement. A great number of readers must have picked up on what constitutes GREAT recommendation letters and learned how BAD most of them are. </p>
<p>However, for every "educated" parent or student, there must be 10 or 20 other families that won't be that lucky. The poor kids will simply pick a teacher at random and probably receive the run-of-the-mill letter full of the usual and meaningless "hard working" and "dedicated" adjectives. As I mentioned earlier, a lack of postage ended up returning a fat envelope bulging with letters of my school, and I discovered how different the letters were ... not to mention how haphazard the system was. Since then, I have really NOTHING positive to say about the system used by colleges that extends the roles of the Guidance Counselors and teachers well beyond their capabilities. It would be wonderful if they could get correct transcripts out in a timely fashion!</p>
<p>Except for grades reports, about everything that comes out of a high school is the result of manipulations and popularity contests. The saddest part is that many families are forced to play the game to keep up with the others. Despite knowing that is inherently wrong, they join the parade of brown-nosers and sycophants. </p>
<p>The high schools are not really the ones to blame here. The culprits are the admission offices that reward the gaming and the gamers by using elements they well know to lack integrity.</p>
<p>XIGGI - not to bust your bubble ^^ - and you certainly sound very angry and resentful of the 'haves' - is it because you did not receive the outcome of your choosing??? What part of this process is out of the relm of the GC - it is their job - please explain.</p>
<p>We had no clue how to play the ''game'' back when - cuz DS did 99% of his college app process himself - we were just very supportive runners - pick up the mail - deliver the mail, etc..... - we had no real active role in his process at all. DS was smart enough to figure out the process on his own with a good GC - who was very familiar with my DS - having had to work thru some real adversity with him as well. It sure was not a popularity contest by any means - it was very hard work on DS's part.</p>
<p>On occassion there is that student who really does have the true respect of their teachers/GC's - and that is well earned - as was the case of our DS - and continues to this day - almost 10 years later.</p>
<p>Had this adcom not recognized that something was amis - I am sure the end result would have been quite different - but they took the time to find out what was going on - DS could have been just another application in the pile - but where he was accepted - he was a perfect candidate - and they saw that. He again has earned the honest respect thru his college experience and continues to benefit from his choice of many years ago.</p>
<p>We eventually were given copies of the letters of rec - and were very surprised at their content - they were very professional - NO fluff - direct and to the point and honest assessments of a good well rounded student. DS was very particular about his choices of writers - at least he had the good sense to make very good choices for these.</p>
<p>Please explain - elements that lack integrity r/t adcoms - sorry i don't understand where you come from on this.</p>
<p>Recs can also come from outside sources, like places the kids volunteer/work. This can be very helpful in seeing the whole person anyway. It's very sad that the teachers make it tougher for the students because of contract woes--strikes are awful too, so I don't have answers.
Larger state Us don't even allow recs (except sometimes for some scholarships)--this is good for folks who have good STATs, I guess your essay would have to add what you would have hoped would otherwise come out during a rec.</p>
<p>"XIGGI - not to bust your bubble ^^ - and you certainly sound very angry and resentful of the 'haves' - is it because you did not receive the outcome of your choosing??? What part of this process is out of the relm of the GC - it is their job - please explain."</p>
<p>JeepMOM, there is no bubble to burst here. While I harbor no resentment towards the "have" or "better educated" I feel I can discuss the inequities in the "system". Also, I was not directing my comments at your precise situation. I was trying to address the "WHY do we even need letters of recommendation?" You may also note that without the attentive adcom, your child may have been hurt by the high school responses. My whole point is that the high schools and the GC are the weakest links in the application process, and that parents and students should try to change the system instead of simply accepting it as a rite of passage. </p>
<p>Were you to go back a couple of years, you may find a few posts of mine that offered more details. In my case, getting the correct letters of recommendation from teachers and GC was not hard at all for ME. My parents moved from an area where parents are expected to be proactive with the local schools. Hence, none of the issues I describe at my high school had a PERSONAL impact. However, I also tried to help a few friends and saw first-hand how the system could backfire for less fortunate ones. Your son may have attended a high school that was honest, supportive, and treated everyone fairly. Feel free to start a thread on CC and ask for negative "issues" with high schools, and you'll find it very popular. </p>
<p>As far as the "realm" of the GC, I don't think it is that hard to see that some schools have a GC for a couple of hundred students who may have met the student they are supposed to "recommend" for just a few minutes. Yet, a student from Boondogs High should stand the same chance as a student from Andover or Deerfield. Actually, we do not even have to make such distinction. We can pick schools in the same city: how do you think Sunset High compares to St. Marks of Dallas in this regard? </p>
<p>Now, I can go back to the rest of your post.</p>
<p>XIGGI - haha - our high school was FAAARRR from the perfect place - believe me - small town - political etc....... GC for a couple of hundred students as well - actualy more - GC 1/class+ - so has same 'group' of students for multi years - guess my DS - being very pro-active - got himself noticed over the years - believe me - not everyone was treated equally by any means - the details of the AP teacher in our experience is very good foder for that argument - and comparitively - DS would be the one from the Boondawg High school.</p>
<p>So, JeepMom, do you think it is a fair and equitable system? And do you think it should be part of the admission process, especially at selective schools?</p>
<p>Recommendations should go the way of SAT II scores - required at the 25 or so most elite schools, and optional at the rest, with no penalty for not having them.</p>
<p>Fair and equitable?? uummmmm not real sure - have very limited experience personally.</p>
<p>Do I think what should be part of the admission process?? not sure what you are referring to here. Every student is different and brings something different to the table of adcoms - what they see in their choices is - I am sure - somewhat of a mystery to many.</p>
<p>IMHO - In a way - I disagree with the manic drive of many in our society to only allow themselves to be candidates at the ''best'' schools - the competitive drive - in many ways - is where I find the fault - who can out do whom. My personal belief is that as important as education is - there needs to be time to be an adolescent as well - instead of the insanely driven parents in our generation (and students as well - gee wonder how that happens more often than not) - who feel the need and drive their kids to be nothing less than perfect - in many ways - guiding them to a fall at some point. That is where I see the ''have'' and ''have nots''.</p>
<p>We seem to live in an era of assumed entitlement - and this is evident in many of the posts on this board. When that entitlement falls short of expectations - is it the fault of college adcoms?? NO I don't think so at all. If there are 500 slots and 5000 applications - something has to give - and that is where I don't have a problem with all the slots NOT going to the highest GPA/test score applicants - but shared by a dynamic group of students with mixed backgrounds and GPA/Test scores - which in my estimation - brings a lot more diversity to the table. Why should only the ''smartest/brightest'' be given all the opportunities in life - share that wealth - and the world is a much better place.</p>
<p>This board tends to cater to the high end - all competing for the same/similar schools - and at times tends to totally ignore the fact that there are students out there who would/could benefit maybe from a less intense stressor of the top 50 schools in this country - some will never consider a 2nd tier or god forbid a 3rd tier school because of the label it may imply - tho many of those schools have great programs that will allow the eventual outcome to be exactly the same.</p>
<p>KCIRSH - Am i reading you right - in essence that would mean that most schools would be numbers driven only!!! What would that accomplish other than to leave the lower end student out of the college picture completely.</p>
<p>Like it or not, recs are here to stay. You need teachers recs for college and professor's recs for grad school. Heck, you even need references for jobs. Collegiate scholarships like the Morehead rely heavily on teacher recs, as do post-grad scholarships like the Rhodes. I don't think the system would be so widespread if it didn't work. I think a thoughtful teacher rec can not only bring out qualities the student himself neglected or was too self-conscious to mention, but also establish a student's ability in and outside the classroom. Grades are extremely important, yes. However, most colleges don't merely want a student who can do well; they want a student who's going to make a difference and take advantage of all opportunities available- a teacher rec is the best way to convey this (ecs definitely help but only go so far). I think applicants at any college should have the opportunity to have their teacher recs thoughtfully considered- I wholeheartedly agree with JeepMom's comment about CC catering to the top. The system may not be perfect, but it's the best we have. Anyway, common sense should tell students to pick teachers who know them well enough to write a thoughtful rec.</p>
<p>JeepMom, I am also a strong advocate for a sense of normalcy to return to high schools. That is why I condemn the impact of raising the bar ad nauseam. High schools should be high schools and colleges should be colleges. </p>
<p>As far as the letter of recommendation, I do not see how it helps differentiate the MERITS of a candidate. The applications address the issues of EC, special talents and accomplishments in several OTHER places. While the LOR MIGHT confirm a few of the EC, it is not meant to list them. If the adcoms have doubts about the veracity of EC claims, would it not be easier to start asking for documentation? </p>
<p>The problem with the LOR is that its quality and impact is exceedingly dependent from the WRITER knowledge and disposition. Teachers and GC who have their hand on the pulse of adcoms know what they need to write. Inexperienced or well-meaning writers can sink students as much as help them. How many writers of LOR really know that describing a student as diligent or conscientious is a negative?</p>
<p>There are different issues involved here. One is whether recs help or harm an applicant; another is whether they should be required; and yet another is whether the teachers in Kluge's original post are morally (and legally) entitled to withhold recs.</p>
<p>Recs, like essays, and like many other pieces of an applicant's file, are subjective. A teacher can give lower grades to a student for a variety of reasons, or conversely, may give inflated grades to all students year after year. We know this happens when students report stratospheric GPAs and very mediocre board scores. Board scores, too, can be affected by subpar performance on the day, or by expensive coaching. So recs can be badly written and actually undermine an applicant's case. Some teachers and GCs are so overworked that they may not have the time to write good recs, they may not know their students well enough to write effective letters. But that is not a good reason for dismissing recs altogether; it is an argument for restructuring schools, and for beefing up the advising and guidance personnel at schools. Such reforms would be part of a whole package. Students who attend schools that have only 1 advisor for 500 students are probably being schort-changed in different aspects of their education as well. As for recs that are badly written and, inexperienced teachers can be taught to write more effective letters. One of the most important advantage of expensive prep schools is the advisng and guidance. The NYT ran articles that contrasted the college advising at an inner-city school, an affluent suburban public school and a private school. The inner-city GC was in charge of more than 500 student; his counterpart in the private school was in charge of 30+. The inner city GC knew about scholarships but precious little about selective colleges, other perhaps than their names; the prep school counselor knew about selective colleges and zilch about scholarships. Life is indeed unfair.</p>
<p>At highly selective colleges, recs are scrutinized quite carefully. At larger universities, the admission process is more stats driven. Years ago, when Jacques Steinberg was still doing the research for The Gatekeepers, he ran several articles comparing the admission process at Wesleyan and at UCSD. At UCSD, admission was completely stats-driven; no essays, no letters of recommendation. Presumably, no long list of ECs either, although I don't recall if that was mentioned. But at large universities, listing ECs does not matter. The student body will be large enough to include practically every kind of talent and interest, It is only smaller institutions that need to worry about having enough athletes, musicians, budding journalists, etc... </p>
<p>On the third issue I listed: given that recs DO form an important component of an application, the teachers are reprehensible in holding their students hostage.</p>
<p>I would certainly like to know how the students are managing around the LOR situation in the OP's quote - MARITE - I completely agree with your point about the holding these students hostage. As a parent of a 'hostage' I would be very concerned about the effect this may/will have. Wonder how many opportunities will be lost because of what I feel is the unethical and ??unlawful behavior of these professionals - guess their pay check is more important than the students they teach - how very sad!!!!!</p>
<p>XIGGI - I agree that LOR's should NOT be a reptetive document expounding the EC's of the student - Tho there are times when it can and should expound on the talents and positives in a way that is not fully explained on the application itself - in our situation - that is exactly what it did do - and actually came from the department head of the AP teacher as well.</p>
<p>Another aspect of the LOR - students need to be taught and to understand just exactly what the LOR can and cannot do - the importance of making the best choice they can - from who is the best to provide the LOR. Too many times a kid will ask just anyone - maybe cuz they like the way they are cool in class!!</p>
<p>XIGGI - I only know - from personal experience - what 1 LOR did for my DS - in a situation that he did not deserve to be put in - because a teacher did not like him in her class - which he chose to take irregardless of the teacher teaching it - he persevered and ultimately won in the end - but at a possible cost to him. She had no right to do to him what she did - and it was seen and investigated by the people who make the decisions. There is alot more to this situation that I will not discuss in this forum - the behaivor of the teacher which was deplorable, unprofessional and unethical to say the least. So I can only support what I actually know to be facts in this situation - tho I do have my opinions about it in general I guess.</p>
<p>Well, hmm. My kids don't attend College Park, so it's not a direct concern. But the school they do attend, which sends students to Ivy League and other excellent schools every year, has more than 500 students per counselor. So I wouldn't think it would be realistic to expect the counselors to know every student. And they don't - not a criticism, just reality. So Xiggi's right, in my opinion - the recommendations which may make a difference are going to be handed out on an uneven basis. (JeepMom's story doesn't actually address the issue of LOR's, either - that was a case of a counselor doing his or her job responding to a question about an out-of-sync grade. The likelihood of something like that being addressed in a garden variety LOR is low.)</p>
<p>Yes, LOR's are a fact of life. I have to round up three right now to renew my specialization certification. And I just got a call from a guy who wants me to do the same for him. I get letters every month asking my opinion about various lawyers, judges and justices under consideration for appointment to higher positions. And you know my honest opinion? It's all BS. 99% of the time I don't have any opinion other than that the person is reasonably qualified for the job they do. The people who will write LOR's for me all think I'm good at my job. Duh! That's why I picked them. </p>
<p>The few kids for whom it will actually make a difference will be those who A) have caught the attention and approval of a teacher who B) is more than usually articulate and C) is taken with the student. Which means every kid who doesn't fit that formula is at a disadvantage - regardless of his or her overall talents and abilities. LOR's are inherently subjective and the playing field for which students get "valuable" ones is not level.</p>
<p>And before you ask - My son's "dream school" is a state U which doesn't accept recommendations, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I doubt that the College Park kids will suffer because - hey, it's a great excuse. I can't imagine any U they apply to failing to accept the explanation that "the teachers are all on strike from writing LOR's" as a basis for waiving that part of the app.</p>
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LOR's are inherently subjective and the playing field for which students get "valuable" ones is not level.
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<p>Yes, and so are grades. So should we disregard GPAS, too? We all know that different teachers have different grading standards, that some schools are more rigorous than others. I can tell you that one student's B is not the same as another student's B, even if they come from the same teacher in the same class, for the same assignment. For a student who is just average, it can be acknowledgment that the student has done good. though not stellar work. For a high achieving student, that can be a wake-up call. My S's AP-Chem teacher gave him a B+ one quarter because she was exasperated with some of his sloppy lab reports. That B+ kept him from getting an A but it did not prevent the teacher from nominating him for the school's Chemistry Prize. Objectivity is a delusion. You don't even have to be po-mo to recognize that.</p>
<p>As for a level playing field: life is not fair. Half the population lives on less than $47k, and the other half on more than that. And some people are billionnaire. Some students are able to attend private schools that cost more than $30k, and others attend inner-city schools where the furniture is broken and books are inexistent. For the latter, a rec letter spelling out the conditions in which a student was able to achieve would be of immense benefit as opposed to the unadorned score boards that might not be competitive with those of a prep school student whose parents paid $25k to a college counselor to present the student in the best possible light.</p>
<p>Quote: "the students who have moms and dads with time to volunteer or participate at school events"...
I did not participate in any school event, other than debate judging, which I was required to do for my son to participate. I therefore don't believe that his recommendations had a thing to do with me or my husband...we never even went to individual parent teacher conferences, because they were optional and we didn't want to take up the teachers' time just to hear nice things. Nevertheless, I know that his recs were stellar and personal (excerpts of one was read aloud at a scholarship presentation, and the gc described another). And I do believe they had an important impact on the positive outcome, because they described my son as a person, stressing his social and personal attributes that would not have been evident from his stats. While I know this system is imperfect and anything that depends on invidual teacher commitement and writing style can't be uniform or always fair, to exclude this personal component from the application process would make it much more sterile and deprive adcoms from having the opportunity to grasp the totality of the student.</p>